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Incline ArcSys saving fighting games with Dragon Ball FighterZ

Latro

Arcane
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Jun 5, 2013
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Dear lord, Bamco just reared its ugly head again, it seems.
- $60 for the base game.
- $35 for the season pass that includes 8 as of yet unnanounced characters.
- $110 if you want the above but with a steelbook.
- $150 for a collector's edition that does not even come with the season pass.

So if you want the complete package you can shell out 95 bucks, and if you want a collector's edition that is actually complete, expect to cough up 185 bucks.
This is just ridiculous.
if you don't give a shit about DLC, it's all fine

definitely running yamcha/tien/nappa
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
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DLC in a fighting game means more characters, and this being Bamco you can be sure that these DLC characters are going to be overpowered at some point. Being unable to use the best characters in a fighting game is either for masochists or people who don't care about winning - and I don't know what people who don't care about winning are doing playing fighting games.
 
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I mean that's true, but it depends on the level of OPness of the really obnoxious characters and whether you have access to the character that the scrub who just defeated you played.

I've beaten many KoF'97 Orochi Ioris, SS2 Ukyos and ST Akumas at arcades back in my day, but that shit is infuriating when you do lose.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
DLC in a fighting game means more characters, and this being Bamco you can be sure that these DLC characters are going to be overpowered at some point. Being unable to use the best characters in a fighting game is either for masochists or people who don't care about winning - and I don't know what people who don't care about winning are doing playing fighting games.
Hm...there is that word...it is used quite a lot in videogames...ah yes, it is called challange.
 
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If you think playing a competitive game (operative word - competitive) at an inherent disadvantage because you don't own a piece of DLC or microtransaction is 'challenging' and not absolutely stupid and unacceptable then well, you're the justification for shit like loot boxes. Congratulations.

Have you ever even played a fighting game competitively? As in, not jerking off against the CPU at home.
 

Biscotti

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if you don't give a shit about DLC, it's all fine

definitely running yamcha/tien/nappa

Well, I do give a shit because DLC in fighting games means more characters, and I like my rosters to be complete. Also, season passes are one of the most cancerous forms of DLC, you don't even have a guarantee you're getting what you're paying for, because at the time of purchase the content isn't even there yet. SFV season pass owners already got fucked like this by Capcom.

The idea of buying a $60 game, knowing full well I'll have to spend an additional $35 on it down the line just doesn't sit right with me.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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If you think playing a competitive game (operative word - competitive) at an inherent disadvantage because you don't own a piece of DLC or microtransaction is 'challenging' and not absolutely stupid and unacceptable then well, you're the justification for shit like loot boxes. Congratulations.

Have you ever even played a fighting game competitively? As in, not jerking off against the CPU at home.
Don't be so dense. Challenging, as in the reason some people would play with less than optimal characters is to challange themselves. I don't give a shit about DLC, I won't buy it. Why would Arc Systems, the masters of fighting games would fuck up their games with unbalanced DLCs? They had DLCs in their past games which didn't messed up the balance. The DLC characters will probably similar to the original characters in terms of strength.

Buying the characters in DLC and season pass is the problem itself, but not beause those characters will be better than the original roster.
 
Last edited:
Joined
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You're so fucking gullible.

Do you think ASW has the leverage to determine if their DLC is balanced or not? This isn't a self-published title. Do you not understand how Bandai Namco works? Do you not think they're only interested in the bottom line, and the bottom line as they perceive it are nerds who will spend money to have a competitive edge?

Imposing self-limitations because of 'challenge' is all fine and good, but they're not fucking self-limitations if you don't own the fucking DLC. It's cute that you're calling other people dense when you can't grasp such a simple concept.

I'm pretty sure you've never played a fighting game against another human being in your life.
 

Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,928
BlazBlue already had DLC characters that were overpowered (as fuck), so I don't understand what the fuck is your point.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
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The first point is, DLC characters (especially overpowered ones) in a fighting game is rage-inducing bullshit and part of the reason why I stopped playing fighting games.

The second point is, Bamco being what it is, the situation will most likely be worse. Which is why I won't be buying the game. Pretty simple points, really, but some random dude waltzes in and spouts some inane shit about 'muh self-imposed challenge', which is risible and deserves to be blasted.
 
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Mangoose

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DLC in a fighting game means more characters, and this being Bamco you can be sure that these DLC characters are going to be overpowered at some point. Being unable to use the best characters in a fighting game is either for masochists or people who don't care about winning - and I don't know what people who don't care about winning are doing playing fighting games.
Hm...there is that word...it is used quite a lot in videogames...ah yes, it is called rage.
ftfy
 

Nathir

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
1,090
Season pass obviously sucks, but I think it's too soon to start crying how how they will make DLC chars top tier. In GG for example the two most recent chars are at the bottom of the tier list and it doesn't matter who you pick, you can still win. For example FAB absolutely destroys top japanese players with Potemkin, an universally accepted ''bad'' char. I'm pretty sure the game will be just fine as far as balance goes.
 
Joined
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Using a player from the top echelon of the Japanese competitive scene to illustrate character balance is disingenuous and, quite frankly, dumb. Such a player can make every character work, regardless of balance, because the player is exceptional. The vast majority of players are not, and will never be exceptional.

You people are probably too young for this analogy, but imagine Super Turbo came out today. Gouki (the absolute best character in the game by a mile and banned in every tournament) is a DLC character. Everyone who has Gouki picks Gouki, and the character has a disproportionately high win rate. People who don't have access to Gouki are at an innate disadvantage over those that do. The fact that top player x or y from Japan is able to beat Gouki with Zangief is irrelevant. Do you want me to draw you a diagram or is that clear enough?

I'll restate my point for the third time: the main problem isn't necessarily how overpowered the DLC characters are (although that is a secondary problem, and a corollary of the first problem), it's the existence of DLC characters period, and the fact that not everyone has access to all the tools in the game (characters). And even worse, it's the pre-planned existence of DLC characters that are sold as part of a season pass at the time the game is released, which is compounded by the developers/publisher not specifying which characters they will be, or any details whatsoever about them.

Look, if you people are fine with being unable to choose from the same roster of characters as your opponent, more power to you. I guess Bamco isn't wrong after all. Did you hear about this new loot box trend in games? It's great. No one's forcing you to buy them! You can be super cool and enforce your self-imposed challenge to play at a disadvantage against people who simply cash them out! Wait, there's another super cool game that limits your choices (but that's totally fine since you can always beat the paid characters with the characters that you do have with just a teeny bit of effort) - it's called League of Legends! :lol:

Do you see a pattern yet or is that too difficult still? Such fucking decline in this place. If you want to button mash as Goku and Krillin against the CPU until your drool reaches the floor you shouldn't give a shit, I suppose.
 
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Nathir

Liturgist
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Aug 3, 2017
Messages
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Using a player from the top echelon of the Japanese competitive scene to illustrate character balance is disingenuous and, quite frankly, dumb. Such a player can make every character work, regardless of balance, because the player is exceptional. The vast majority of players are not, and will never be exceptional.

I disagree. The top echelons are the only reliable way to gauge overall balance. Again lets use Guilty gear. Venom is a character that's considered pretty good and is placed higher on tier lists than Sol. But if two completely new players were to fight against each other, the Sol would probably win 90% of the time. Unbalanced game? Not really, just one is a beginner character and much easier to do well with. As long as you aren't at the top level you can always get better. Ideally, what a developer must do is to make a game which ensures that you can win no matter which character you pick. If you look at the latest big GG tourney, only one character wasn't picked. The top 12 were all different chars, and not a single Raven, Chipp or Johnny. The unanimously agreed upon top 3 characters.

What I wanted to say is that ArcSys knows what they are doing, and DLC characters being intentionally made stronger is something that will probably not happen, or if it will won't have a big impact. What's much more likely is to sell certain fan favourites as DLC (Broly) in order to milk people.

You people are probably too young for this analogy, but imagine Super Turbo came out today. Gouki (the absolute best character in the game by a mile and banned in every tournament) is a DLC character. Everyone who has Gouki picks Gouki, and the character has a disproportionately high win rate. People who don't have access to Gouki are at an innate disadvantage over those that do. The fact that top player x or y from Japan is able to beat Gouki with Zangief is irrelevant. Do you want me to draw you a diagram or is that clear enough?

I'll restate my point for the third time: the main problem isn't necessarily how overpowered the DLC characters are (although that is a secondary problem, and a corollary of the first problem), it's the existence of DLC characters period, and the fact that not everyone has access to all the tools in the game (characters). And even worse, it's the pre-planned existence of DLC characters that are sold as part of a season pass at the time the game is released, which is compounded by the developers/publisher not specifying which characters they will be, or any details whatsoever about them.

Look, if you people are fine with being unable to choose from the same roster of characters as your opponent, more power to you. I guess Bamco isn't wrong after all. Did you hear about this new loot box trend in games? It's great. No one's forcing you to buy them! You can be super cool and enforce your self-imposed challenge to play at a disadvantage against people who simply cash them out! Wait, there's another super cool game that limits your choices (but that's totally fine since you can always beat the paid characters with the characters that you do have with just a teeny bit of effort) - it's called League of Legends! :lol:

Do you see a pattern yet or is that too difficult still? Such fucking decline in this place. If you want to button mash as Goku and Krillin against the CPU until your drool reaches the floor you shouldn't give a shit, I suppose.

I agree with all of this. Season passes are super scummy and of course having access to them while someone does not gives you an advantage. I never argued otherwise.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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I'm actually trying to think of which this OP BlazBlue DLC character is supposed to be since even the boss character unlocks (this I'd say is a much more questionable practise since these are handed out for free after beating the story mode whenever these DLCs appear) don't end up having real leg-up in casual play because their actual boss versions have handicaps active. Even Terumi was not as tough as he seems at first. The same has carried on with Guilty Gear, Elphelt, Leo, Kum, and Dizzy are perfectly within norms, not to mention Elphelt is so adorbs you are not permitted to complain about her. ArcSys has overall been very proper with DLC character balancing and overall I think it's not an entirely bad concept even if DLC characters for fighting games are something that really can't be argued against being overpriced.

Street Fighter 2 Akuma is an entirely difference case, a character with blatantly more hitting power with every move, another example of this sort of character would be KoF 2003 Adelheid whose basic command triple kick plus special move combination could outdamage many super moves because his handicap damage was in effect when playable too.

PS: Yea season passes are the proverbial pigs in a poke. The entire scheme runs on the promise the pass will be cheaper than the DLCs separately.

SFV season pass owners already got fucked like this by Capcom.
Well they got fucked by so many other ways too, so it's just a part of it.
 

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
Using a player from the top echelon of the Japanese competitive scene to illustrate character balance is disingenuous and, quite frankly, dumb.
Wait, there's another super cool game that limits your choices (but that's totally fine since you can always beat the paid characters with the characters that you do have with just a teeny bit of effort) - it's called League of Legends! :lol:
Lurker here. It's funny that you bring it up, because I ended up getting Kinda Decent at League of Legends at one point in my life and there was a moment around Season 2 / 3 where Xin Zhao, an Oriental-themed brawler character was an absolutely horribad champion. He had lackluster base damage, weak crowd control, unimpressive ultimate and was overall a shadow of his former, pubstomping self, completely outshined by the powercreep that was already settling in in that game and crippled by nerfs. Characters like Nocturne, Riven or Renekton offered pretty much the same thing Xin did (at the time Xin had no niche at all, and brawler design was quite a bit homogenous - basically, slap a cleave attack, a dash, some sort of stun and some temporary-massive-stat-boost ultimate, and call it a day), but better.

And then Riot Games decided to nerf him further specifically because he was dominating Bronze and Silver ranks.

We're not talking about a character like Shaco, who was a very high-risk assassin whose entire power was frontloaded to the first 8 minutes of the game and relied entirely on getting your lanes to snowball so that achieving victory was beyond doubt. He was quite unique in that regard; most other characters in his role brought in a ton of utility so that if their ganks and control failed or didn't secure a decisive advantage, they'd still be a fantastic enforcer, buffer or protector.

Yet Shaco had plenty of dedicated mains that got him to Diamond because of strong carry potential in solo queue and a pretty decent skill floor/ceiling even though Shaco, for the most part, was a pretty weak character as well; a D-tier character whom, if somebody picks him in solo queue, you pray to whatever higher power exists that they are actually skilled enough. Xin Zhao was a tier below that - a character so utterly gimped that he was unusable if your opposition was capable of breathing. To fall victim to a Xin attack you pretty much had to be blind to his approach and then just allow yourself to get whacked at, as many characters were able to simply outduel him.

Oh, and said Shaco was also nerfed along the same lines, though there was enough to his gimmicky design for people to still play him even if you had to put in a TON of effort to play him, compared to your run-of-the-mill ganks-at-level-2 jungler. Just because he was "unfun to play against" when you're not skilled or coordinated, but otherwise a very, very unremarkable, "cheesy" character.

Needless to say, experiences such as these don't make me believe that you're right. I'd understand if the example was FAB pubstomping some casual netplay lobbies with Potemkin, purportedly a weakling in the roster - but this was an example of a top player standing his ground against other top players while widely considered to have a handicap of sorts.

Point is: if you don't leave balance to the top players, you end up with balance dictated upon a whim of the Flavor of the Month. Also, for all the faults of the same game that you're dissing for having the power creep tied to unlockable characters, it also generally allowed you to gain access to solid, in-meta characters on the cheap all the time, and you didn't have to spend a dime on any characters. If Gouki was released in the LoL model, you'd have to probably win like 100 games with Ryu or Chun-Li to get him, and then he'd get nerfed to Dan levels after the massive outrage on the forums.

I agree with Nathir that the DLC is more likely to be there for introducing fan favourites and, as regrettable as the practice is, it probably won't affect competitive scene.
 
Joined
Apr 5, 2013
Messages
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Finally, there maybe a good 2D DB fighter. All of pre-PS2 fighting gaems were shit except fir Hyper Dimension which was 6/10 (1 exrta point for dark artsyle, more mature than source material),
 

Makabb

Arcane
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Messages
11,753
I wish they would remake the SNES DBZ RPG, legend of super saiyan, it is the best DBZ game ever made, with overland map, turn based combat, random encounters etc

 

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