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Helherron - a very addictive Nahlakh-like game

akuukka

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Apr 25, 2017
Messages
55
2.105 available now!
 

Jack Dandy

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
C'mon man, don't ignore me!:(

I'm honestly wondering about that, from a design perspective. What's bad about giving fighters more options besides "Hit this guy"?

Also- the new version still hasn't fixed the "Every town you visited is on permanent nighttime" bug.
 
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akuukka

Educated
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Apr 25, 2017
Messages
55
C'mon man, don't ignore me!:(

I'm honestly wondering about that, from a design perspective. What's bad about giving fighters more options besides "Hit this guy"?

Also- the new version still hasn't fixed the "Every town you visited is on permanent nighttime" bug.

Unfortunately there is no simple way to fix that bug and because it does not affect fresh new games started in versions >= 2.104, I have chosen not to fix it.

What options exactly would you want to have besides hitting a nearby enemy?
 

screeg

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 14, 2006
Messages
51
I know the frustration when one of your heroes dies because of the critical hit to vital organs, but I still feel it is fully compensated by the joy you feel when it happens to one of your enemies. It has saved my ass many, many times!
My specific gripe is with instant-kill mechanics that cannot be mitigated by gameplay. This kind of thing is strictly anti-strategy. It can't be planned for, and IMO is poor design. That said, yes I would still like my enemies to die from it now and then, since there are four times as many of them than us. :)

The random "Oops, I hit an ally!" is terrible for the same reason. It basically means my 2 Trolls and Golem can't fight adjacent to any other unit, since they can instant-kill everyone else. Think about how much this reduces my deployment options. I don't know any other game that does this.

I think it's more urgent to make Dwarfs, Lizardmen and Orcs viable player units than to add a bunch of hit options for fighters. Helherron is equipment driven, with tons of consumables accessible to fighters. But if you *had* to add something, I'd suggest adding one special attack per weapon type, example:
>polearms: option to target 2 tiles distant
>axes: option to hit multiple adjacent targets with wild swing
>mauls: option to target armor
>swords: chance to attack twice
 

akuukka

Educated
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Apr 25, 2017
Messages
55
I think it's more urgent to make Dwarfs, Lizardmen and Orcs viable player units than to add a bunch of hit options for fighters.

Hopefully the new double strike skill is a step towards this, since golems and troll barbarians won't be able to do double strikes well.

OK, I get your anti-strategy argument. It's a good point. Anyone else has opinions about this?
 

Gunnar

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
819
Just make them critical hits and don't swing the HP numbers so wildly, or put something in the game to guard against it
 

screeg

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 14, 2006
Messages
51
Quality of life suggestions:
--> Signify on the character when a piece of his armour is damaged (grey A?). Right now the notification just flashes by and I might not notice for a long time. Having the damaged piece come up red instead of grey in inventory would also be helpful.
--> Signify on the character when the currently equipped weapon has zero ammo.
--> Change the description on spells when a multiplier is used. If I use a multiplier on something binary like Confusion, does it increase chance of success?
Does a multiplier do anything to Create Ice or Create Wall? It would be nice to know.

*Also, could you check that Ring of Duration still works? My priest's spells seem to be effective for only normal length now.
*Had Troll Fighter drink Elixir of Health: Max HP went up 6 instead of 10...
 
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V_K

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at a Nowhere near you
The random "Oops, I hit an ally!" is terrible for the same reason. It basically means my 2 Trolls and Golem can't fight adjacent to any other unit, since they can instant-kill everyone else.
But it particularly makes sense with big, clumsy creatures. Maybe not so much with dwarves though.
It basically means my 2 Trolls and Golem can't fight adjacent to any other unit, since they can instant-kill everyone else. Think about how much this reduces my deployment options.
And how's that a bad thing, challenge-wise? I agree that enemy instakills aren't the best design, but this kind of friendly fire actually adds tactical complexity.
 

mercyRPG

Cipher
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Feb 20, 2013
Messages
794
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Alpha Centauri
[..]
I really dislike the sudden death That was a hit to vital organs! BS, at least when it happens to my guys. There's no way to prevent that random lucky hit and my goal is always to win battles without losing anyone.

Proposing a solution:
For gritty, dark fantasy realism maybe a fighter could suffer a fatal wound and bleed out faster instead, some STR and DEX maluses, but otherwise could continue to fight like heroes in action / fantasy movies, when they are stabbed bad then go berserk and score that final hit that kills their enemy. Then the hero collapses and is bleeding out. Needs bandages in party inventory and tending, otherwise will die, just like if being in extreme starvation state.
 

mercyRPG

Cipher
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Messages
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Question to everyone playing Helherron: what kind of spell would you like to have added to the game?

Wither = higher level spell. You suck the life-force out of the enemy completely and watch as the enemy turns into black dust -->same effect as when Blizzarded enemies break into wonderful tiny ice particles. The energy goes to heal your wounds or if at max health, cures bleeding and diseased states. This same effect had the tiny Alien Blaster in Fallout 1/2 [by first electrocuting the enemy with a nice classic cartoon effect] then turning the enemy into black dust and you watched as the soot fell to the ground.
---
Chain Lightning MK-2 = the mage learns to put into this spell a warding rune resulting in NO FRIENDLY FIRE
---
EARTH MAW = higher LVL. Earth opens and swallows enemies completely in a smaller/couple tiles area.
---
Summon Dragon = medium LVL. Summon a smaller dragon, who acts as a walking flamethrower spitting moderate DMG fireballs everywhere around him at close range. Better summon the dragon far away to clean out monster hordes and pester the stronger enemies. Summoning multiple Dragons this way could be great fun after mid-game. :D
--
Black Hole Swarm = Shoot a sizeable swarm of tiny black holes into the enemy mob, where the holes cause great damage by ripping large chunks out of monster bodies, then the tiny black holes disappear without a trace. Monsters are left looking like Swiss Cheese.
--
Acid Puddle = low LVL spell. Merely creates acid puddles on the ground damaging anything stepping into it.
--
Acid Rain = medium LVL. Great area acid damage to anything having the misfortune to be under the storm, (works like ice storm). Then leaves acid puddles in a greater area.
--
God Bile = High LVL spell. Shoots a strange green projectile and anybody it hits, completely turns into green acid mist and you watch as green particles fall onto the ground leaving an acid puddle. Great way to reduce powerful enemies into nothing. Spell chance of success increases at higher power setting. At higher Power levels this spell also shoots multiple 2..3..4..5 god-bile projectiles.
--

By the way: Re-check all spell power levels settings, so I can set the power level for any spell, where it makes sense, like fireball, etc..
--
Disembowel = High LVL. Rips the belly of a monster open and completely spills all the innards onto the ground --> show corpse graphic. Instantly kills one enemy with a great blood spurt graphic too.
At game companies the particle effects creators are using a so called "mesh emitter" to show flying wood splinters or whole parts of a destroyed object flying in the air, so you could assemble group of smaller bloody parts graphics, put them into an array and make the particle emitter emit RANDOM parts from this array[1,2,3,4,5,6,.etc]. Array[1] being a N#1 chunk of bigger bloody bit, Array[2] being another innard-looking bloody chunk, all of them the size of approx. 5x5 pixel.
--
Summon Angel = Medium to high LVL. A strong angel warrior appears glowing in the colors of yellow white sunlight and fights for the party. Just like a demon summon, but with holy weapon/spell effects: can dispel/destroy undead or shadows or banish zombies with ease. Randomly heals party members--> if any member is at max HP, then the angel cures diseases instead. This he/she does at RANDOM, either attack monster or heal party members.
--
Firestarter = Medium to high LVL. Just like in the movie[especially from 1:53 in the clip], a fireball shoots forward from the caster, but leaves a fire-path of tiles anywhere it goes and after it explodes creates a lasting Sea of Fire.
--
Gold Ray = medium to high LVL. ONE ENEMY only. Shoots an Alchemical Transmutation Ray toward one enemy and turns it into a nice heap of gold. Small, low LVL monsters turn into less gold and big, powerful, high LVL monsters turn into larger heaps of gold. Boss monsters turn into a giant amount of gold. Setting the Power Level to higher improves chance of success and also has a multiplier, so at higher power level the spell creates somewhat more gold.
 
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mercyRPG

Cipher
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Feb 20, 2013
Messages
794
Location
Alpha Centauri
Quality of life suggestions:
[..]--> Change the description on spells when a multiplier is used. If I use a multiplier on something binary like Confusion, does it increase chance of success?
Does a multiplier do anything to Create Ice or Create Wall? It would be nice to know.
The created wall could really be stronger/lasting longer, when using a multiplier.
 

screeg

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 14, 2006
Messages
51
Another quality-of-life suggestion: allow casting of spells on multiple characters, but not the whole party. I might want to cast Anaesthesia on my fighters but nobody else.
Example: select spell and his shift-C, select multiple targets using the number keys. Hit Enter to confirm.

----
Did Greg the Artificer in Castle Galakto always have such a crazy mark-up on his goods? I seem to remember buying stuff from him back in the day, but now it's crazy expensive even with high Trade skill. Is the cost not influenced by Trade?

Do Elven weapons have a to-hit bonus?

I've noticed that casting Stun on opponents will sometimes result in the "x is stunned!" prompt, but they won't actually be Stunned.

What is Sleep for? It seems in newer versions of the game that anyone put to sleep wakes up and takes their next turn every time.

Could you gray out Paralyzed units like you do for Sleep and Stun?

Creatures that are frozen to death switch their facing.

Does Kicking a container risk damaging the contents? (I know I should know this, but since I'm making a list...)
 
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mercyRPG

Cipher
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Feb 20, 2013
Messages
794
Location
Alpha Centauri
Multi Attack Fighters and at least Double Shot Archers:

As was in the original Helherron and in the amazing SSI Gold Box series. A higher LVL fighter should attack multiple times per round, as per AD&D 2nd Edition rules.

Multiple attacks for maximum satisfaction, A'la SSI Gold Box Games series, Dark Knights of Krynn, Secret of the Silver Blades, Pools of Darkness. I deliberately mention the sequels, where your party = Your Warriors are already at "high level" so they attack multiple times.

Greatest Customer Satisfaction and Maximum Stress Relief during GamePlay you had with a Commodore 64 or Amiga joystick. As you see these joysticks were almost as big as a swords hilt and acted very much the same, when you were surrounded by monsters in all 8 directions and you yanked the Joystick into the direction were you wished to attack MULTIPLE TIMES with your high level warrior. You could attack the entire crowd surrounding you with a HASTE spell.

zIl1Ljd.png


In any of the 8 directions you pulled these sticks - ((that if released always re-centered themselves)), your warrior moved there. If you were surrounded, hacking in multiple directions with the joysticks above felt ecstatic!!

HOW IT SHOULD WORK:
Whatever monster you warrior collides with - while moving - he/she must attack that monster once. If you continue to pull the joystick in the same direction, then your warrior attacks that monster as many times as he has attacks left.

HOW TO REALIZE:

Note: Multiple attacks in Helherron with high LVL fighters should be possible sequentially. Hit the

<--LEFT key once to attack the monster on your left (press it again, if you wanna hit that monster again)

or / then hit the

RIGHT--> key once to attack the monster on your right (press it again, if you wanna hit that monster again)

and so on in all the 8 directions! (HASTE or speed potion is needed to double the number of attacks)

This is the fun way to fight. Antti, if your new system can do so that a warrior with higher SPEED gets his turn multiple times and faster than other monsters, that might work. But this is the way to do it. How you did it in 2004.

Observe above action in this video from the time 3:01: the player's high level warrior, named Amon, attacks a Dark Elf Lord multiple times. The player pulls the joystick toward the Dark Elf Lord and holds the stick there. (Same with keypress) Just as it were in the massively Amazing FUN original Helherron 2.04. IIRC, You probably remembered and used SSI's awesome combat mechanics: you even allowed archers to shoot multiple times, which is an ABSOLUTE MUST for Maximum Fun!! Fun Gameplay is king.

*** Do You want to get Filthy Rich by putting Helherron on Steam? Then allow high level fighters attack many times per turn exactly like they were in the SSI Gold Box games!



Here is another example. Listen to the YT poster, how much he likes 4 attacks per turn for his high level fighter: demonstration at video time 15:52

More attacks means more power to the player --> more customer satisfaction --> they tell their friends, who again will buy your game --> You get Filthy Rich. Enhance Your Amazing Design with this attacks/per turn method.




Bows get two shots: from video time 12:23
 

Jack Dandy

Arcane
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Feb 10, 2013
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Divinity: Original Sin 2
I do like Mercy's passion. What he says does have a point. It's just damn satisfying to hack enemies to shit all around you.
 

screeg

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Developer
Joined
Jul 14, 2006
Messages
51
Uh, "maximum satisfaction" doesn't mean overpowered ridiculousness, at least not to me. As soon as you reach level 2 in Helherron you've got plenty of opportunity to mow down crowds of enemies, enemies your level or lower. Every time I meet bandits on the road I fight them for that reason, to see them die ten at a time.

For tackling enemies of higher level, or in overwhelming numbers, I'm interested in thoughtful strategy and risk. There are approximately 10,000,000 different games I could play to get what Mercy is asking for. Why recreate it in Helherron?
 

mercyRPG

Cipher
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Feb 20, 2013
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794
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Alpha Centauri
High level fighters have more attacks in real life:

Observe UFC and Bellator MMA champions, how many times they attack versus lower rank fighters and versus newbies having a debut.

Legendary Jon 'Bones' Jones or equally legendary Mighty Mouse for example and also a couple N#1/N#2 rank fighters near champion know, how to use their momentum and time launching multiple attacks, while their opponents - usually the challengers - attack noticeably less. Happens frequently: UFC even counts successful strikes landed and taken and they display it during a fight to show significant advantage. How is it possible that a high LVL fighter managed to land 3x more hits than his opponent?
 

screeg

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Developer
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Messages
51
Now your argument is shifting to what's "realistic"...?
----
The false Stun confirmation is definitely happening. Not sure if it's confined to un-Stunnable opponents, but I don't think so.
 
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akuukka

Educated
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Apr 25, 2017
Messages
55
Multiple attacks per turn is really hard to do well. I really don't know how to do it properly in Helherron... Especially archers are problematic. If shooting is supposed to take 4 movement points, what should happen when you try to shoot when you have just 2 movement points? I really didn't like the 2.04 solution where shooting was split between two turns.

As for melee fighters, you can hit multiple times in current Helherron with high Stealth skill. Especially monks do this well. Maybe there should be a spell in the game that you gives you a really high temporary boost to Stealth skill, so that non-monk characters could also enjoy hitting multiple enemies on one turn.
 

akuukka

Educated
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
55
Btw, just updated the web site with a new version. Some new graphics, some bug fixes and most importantly:

Most of the Engrish has been checked, fixed and improved by a native English speaker. Not all, because some text is still hardcoded inside source code, but it's getting better.
 

mercyRPG

Cipher
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Messages
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Alpha Centauri
Now your argument is shifting to what's "realistic"...?
----
The false Stun confirmation is definitely happening. Not sure if it's confined to un-Stunnable opponents, but I don't think so.
My argument was always on realistic. Developers of most party based RPGs live completely in fantasy land regards combat and do a really SHTty job at it, but not Antti. He knows how to do really brutal fights. Tarantino-style, Ichi The Killer style. There are really good gory samurai movies with excellent blood fountains, where its a technique to make the enemies release a superb fountain, while producing a flute sound at the same time, IIRC, how it was in one oriental movie. :)

But I accept, if you with a majority want NOT the SSI Gold Box style or the original (2004) Helherron-style multi attacks. Totally fine for me.
 

screeg

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 14, 2006
Messages
51
There are really good gory samurai movies with excellent blood fountains, where its a technique to make the enemies release a superb fountain, while producing a flute sound at the same time.
You are referring, of course, to the sound of wailing winter winds in the greatest samurai movie of all time...

Antti: what about the unavoidable hit to vital organs and Oops! attacks? If you're really attached to the mechanic, can we at least make them optional?
 

mercyRPG

Cipher
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Alpha Centauri
Wait! I created a new party to fix the lighting issue, went into the Goblin cave and one of my fighters attacked TWICE!! Speed of his was probably high. I retract my fighter-related SSI Gold Box suggestions then, this new system Antti created seems to work just fine!!

Archers need to behave the same: Like Legolas in Lord of the Rings, he shot many times or shot multiple arrows at once. But for a game shooting more than once is a must for an archer with HIGH SPEED or a higher level archer--> having had the chance to develop HIGHER SPEED.
 

Lagi

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Desert
V_K said:
I'd really like to see is making Resurrection very expensive or inconvenient (having it only in capital city?) and allowing the player to recruit new level 1 units when someone dies.

new replacement recruit would be a nice idea.
party with dead heroes, arrive to the tavern and recruit new guy(can be completely different class), who will replace the body with one xp level less than the corpse.

mercyRPG said:
fighter could suffer a fatal wound and bleed out faster instead, some STR and DEX maluses, but otherwise could continue to fight like heroes in action / fantasy movies, when they are stabbed bad then go berserk and score that final hit that kills their enemy. Then the hero collapses and is bleeding out. Needs bandages in party inventory and tending, otherwise will die, just like if being in extreme starvation state.

could be interesting if characters instead of (always) dying and being resurrected, become maimed (act like dead) and required surgeon + long healing time (2 game days :)) off party, in some hospital.
 

mercyRPG

Cipher
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Messages
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Alpha Centauri
V_K said:
I'd really like to see is making Resurrection very expensive or inconvenient (having it only in capital city?) and allowing the player to recruit new level 1 units when someone dies.

new replacement recruit would be a nice idea.
party with dead heroes, arrive to the tavern and recruit new guy(can be completely different class), who will replace the body with one xp level less than the corpse.
[..]

This is a cool feature for the better party based RPGs out there: Kick out or let die a character you didn't like, create a new one and add her to the party of high level heroes. Then take the newbie to a difficult fight, flee with the high level characters at the end of the battle = all enemies dead, but the player is still 'looting the battlefield' - the game exits battlefield only upon player action - when only the newbie remains, end the battle and let the newbie soak in all the XP and level up fast.


V_K said:
I'd really like to see is making Resurrection very expensive or inconvenient (having it only in capital city?) and allowing the player to recruit new level 1 units when someone dies.

mercyRPG said:
fighter could suffer a fatal wound and bleed out faster instead, some STR and DEX maluses, but otherwise could continue to fight like heroes in action / fantasy movies, when they are stabbed bad then go berserk and score that final hit that kills their enemy. Then the hero collapses and is bleeding out. Needs bandages in party inventory and tending, otherwise will die, just like if being in extreme starvation state.

could be interesting if characters instead of (always) dying and being resurrected, become maimed (act like dead) and required surgeon + long healing time (2 game days :)) off party, in some hospital.

Crippling a fighter, losing a leg or fatally wounding him then carrying that crippled trait until the party has enough money to take the fighter to a priest and properly regenerate that leg - erasing the Crippled status - through Divine Healing, which can be only done in a temple, where a large God Statue is present.
 

Lagi

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new version;
https://www.reddit.com/r/helherron/comments/7tbgbh/new_version_20153_released/


Crippling a fighter, losing a leg or fatally wounding him then carrying that crippled trait until the party has enough money to take the fighter to a priest and properly regenerate that leg - erasing the Crippled status - through Divine Healing, which can be only done in a temple, where a large God Statue is present.
Different settlements could only recover cripples of specific races. Then maybe it would be some benefit for having a dwarf, if he's easier to repair than elf.
 

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