Josh Sawyer Q&A Thread

[Prime Junta]

Sorry Luckmann, we got to him first.

:russia:

 

[Luckmann]

Sorry Luckmann, we got to him first.

:russia:

Thatsthejoke.jpg

 

[SymbolicFrank]

SymbolicFrank

So, you're saying that he says that most tabletop systems are bad, because they are too much like MMO rules.

Where does that say anything about CRPG games? I don't see it.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

Additionally

Well, ok. I think quoting is broken.

Anyway, your first quote is yet again not about CRPGs.

We're also making this game for an audience that we believe wants increased challenge and will not react negatively to mechanics that require increased attention and player input. There are clearly limits to this, but we are willing to try this mechanic because we believe it is more appropriate for our audience.

So, he thinks it should be more like a PnP.

 

[Sizzle]

A crucial (if not at all surprising) bit of JS info!

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Quillon]

breaking news

 

[vonAchdorf]

 

[Infinitron]

Roguey Josh encounters a grognard!

 

[CptMace]

 

[Trashos]

Roguey Josh encounters a grognard!

No, I don't agree with Josh at all here. In Bg2, for example, prebuffing was not a no-brainer at all. On the contrary. You had to know your opponent well (what prebuffing do I need for this specific opponent?), you had to show mastery of the system (what prebuffing is actually available?), and then you had to devise a strategy in order to make do with what you have and the time constraints that were present. Yes, there were also mindless prebuffing spells (some of the priest ones, eg), but not all of them were mindless.

Also, the way Josh speaks here makes it sound like prebuffing should be optional. In such a case, sure, it is going to be overpowered, unless its effect is really small, in which case we get the lame food-prebuffing that we got in PoE1. The point is that prebuffing should not be optional in the higher difficulties. All available tools should be used to have a chance in those levels, otherwise you are making a game for retards or spending valuable development time to produce systems that are there only for flavor (again, food in PoE1).

Sorry, Josh, don't agree at all here.

 

[Cross]

Buffing spells in PoE last for what, 15 seconds on average? Half that if you factor in their casting time. Why even disable pre-buffing when their durations are already that short and their effects are much weaker than their D&D equivalents? The only thing Josh accomplished was to make most buffing spells not particularly useful or interesting to use.

Besides, the 'danger' of pre-buffing hardly explains why a majority of the spells in PoE are 'combat only', including spells that don't grant any buffs at all. Or why most buffs have such flimsy effects (shouldn't those effects be stronger to compensate for their short durations, inability to pre-buff and expiring as soon as combat ends?).

If you want to have enemies on equal footing (which I doubt Josh actually wants, judging by the health system that effectively gives player characters at least 4 times as much HP as enemies), have them use contingencies and sequencers loaded with buffs.

Perhaps most egregiously, he neglects to mention that limiting buffing (and debuffing) to combat greatly limits the variety in playstyles and encounter diversity. And I don't mean in the sense of not allowing you to pre-buff. For example, in Baldur's Gate, it was a real danger that panicked/confused characters could run around drawing enemies to you even after combat ended. In PoE, this is not possible because every status effect, harmful and beneficial, expires as soon as combat ends (and the panicked status effect doesn't even exist in PoE).

 

[Infinitron]

you had to show mastery of the system

This is a grognard's universal response to everything. Reality check: You can stuff any tedious thing into your game and excuse it by saying "But it means you need to gain mastery of the system!" No shit!

What you need to realize is that argument simply isn't good enough. Your desired gameplay mechanics need a stronger defense. To elaborate...

The point is that prebuffing should not be optional

So you want prebuffing to be a mandatory mechanical layer of the game, really a kind of minigame all of its own. OK. Do you really think that's an experienced desired by most people, as implemented in the Infinity Engine games? Is that what they're looking for - lengthy mandatory prebuffing rounds before every trash mob battle in Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale? Are you really thinking about the Infinity Engine games as they existed, or just your idealized version of Baldur's Gate 2 as a game with nothing but a handful of iconic mage duel and dragon encounters?

The Infinity Engine games, and most fantasy RPGs, clearly aren't designed with this ideal of universal mandatory prebuffing in mind. Buffs in these games are fundamentally designed as an ad-hoc, optional tool. An RPG intentionally designed for mandatory prebuffing would approach buffing more systematically, with preconfigurable prebuff UIs that cast automatically and in zero time. Really, you can get your "system mastery" kicks without having to pretend to like tedium! But I doubt it'll ever be in this sort of game.

Why even disable pre-buffing when their durations are already that short and their effects are much weaker than their D&D equivalents? The only thing Josh accomplished was to make most buffing spells not particularly useful

newbie_PoE_stereotypes.txt

 

[Infinitron]

This is the fundamental question you need to ask with regard to prebuffing.

Which of these two scenarios more accurately describes the way you played the Infinity Engine games? Which one more accurately describes the typical desired player experience in an Infinity Engine-style RPG?

Player #1: "Encountered some enemies. The battle was pretty hard. Maybe I could have beaten it without one, but I cast a buff spell and it gave me an edge."

Player #2: "Encountered some enemies. I cast all the relevant buffs. The battle was still pretty challenging, but I won. Encountered some more enemies. I cast all the relevant buffs. The battle was still pretty challenging, but I won. Encountered some more enemies. I cast all the relevant buffs. The battle was still pretty challenging, but I won. Ran out of spells, rested. Repeat."

The key to understanding PoE - Josh Sawyer's design decisions are aimed entirely at people who play like Player #1, and not at all at people who play like Player #2. If Player #2 is allowed to play a game that's fundamentally designed for Player #1 in his way, he will break the game. Combat-only buffing is a reasonable corrective to this, and actually less restrictive than many other possible solutions. You can still cast everything you want, you just have to sacrifice valuable combat time to do so.

 

[Trashos]

This is a grognard's universal response to everything. Reality check: You can stuff any tedious thing into your game and excuse it by saying "But it means you need to gain mastery of the system!" No shit!

Was PoE's or BG2's combat richer in challenge and tactical/strategic diversity? It was BG2's. So I think it makes sense to check what part of the combat was cut, and prebuffing is a big part of what was cut.

So you want prebuffing to be a mandatory mechanical layer of the game, really a kind of minigame all of its own. OK. Do you really think that's an experienced desired by most people, as implemented in the Infinity Engine games? Is that what they're looking for - lengthy mandatory prebuffing rounds before every trash mob battle in Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale? Are you really thinking about the Infinity Engine games as they existed, or just your idealized version of Baldur's Gate 2 as a game with nothing but a handful of iconic mage duel and dragon encounters?

I play BG2 regularly, and the last time was this summer, so it's definitely not some idealized memory that I am talking about.

Yes, I want it to be mandatory, and I want ALL general systems to be mandatory on the highest difficulty. If I can easily beat PoE on the highest difficulty without using any food, why is the food even there?
EDIT: If a system is not mandatory, then its use is bound to make the game too easy. I think this is common sense.

No, I do not believe that all PoE's buyers would have enjoyed mandatory prebuffing. But that's why difficulty levels are there, right? Prebuffing is absolutely not required in the low-to-middle difficulty levels of BG2 either. Still, it makes the experience richer for its more hardcore fans, who play on the highest difficulties.

I would not call it a minigame though. The lockpicking and hacking in New Vegas is what I call minigames. Prebuffing is part of the preface of the difficult battle ahead, when we focus our thoughts and strategize. Prebuffing is part of this strategizing, and it makes it richer.

The key to understanding PoE - Josh Sawyer's design decisions are aimed entirely at people who play like Player #1, and not at all at people who play like Player #2. If Player #2 is allowed to play a game that's fundamentally designed for Player #1 in his way, he will break the game. Combat-only buffing is a reasonable corrective to this, and actually less restrictive than many other possible solutions. You can still cast everything you want, you just have to sacrifice valuable combat time to do so.

OK, I just saw your new post.

Yes, we are on the same page as to what Josh's intentions are. But I believe BG2 is a good example that got it more or less right. I started playing it as a DnD rookie on "normal" without knowing what I am doing, then moved up to "core", and eventually ended up on "hard" (with mandatory prebuffing). All those difficulty levels were well designed and enjoyable. Bioware could do it back then, so...

PoE did not do as well in combat. If Josh thinks that he can offer combat that is as interesting as BG2's without prebuffing, well, let's see how he does in PoE2. But PoE1 was not very convincing in that regard.

 

[vonAchdorf]

An RPG intentionally designed for mandatory prebuffing would approach buffing more systematically, with preconfigurable prebuff UIs that cast automatically and in zero time. Really, you can get your "system mastery" kicks without having to pretend to like tedium! But I doubt it'll ever be in this sort of game.

In EverQuest pre-buffing before a raid was part of the strategy (resistances, regen, HP buffs, floating, ...). In the beginning it was tedious (required grouping to cast the spells, but then they introduced area effect skills for buffs). But that's a different genre, of course.

 

[Volrath]

Sawyer is such a fucking retard, jesus christ.

 

[Infinitron]

An RPG intentionally designed for mandatory prebuffing would approach buffing more systematically, with preconfigurable prebuff UIs that cast automatically and in zero time. Really, you can get your "system mastery" kicks without having to pretend to like tedium! But I doubt it'll ever be in this sort of game.

In EverQuest pre-buffing before a raid was part of the strategy (resistances, regen, HP buffs, floating, ...). In the beginning it was tedious (required grouping to cast the spells, but then they introduced area effect skills for buffs). But that's a different genre, of course.

No doubt it can be done. People should be conscious of what they want, though.

It's like, do you want a game where systematic prebuffing is designed to be a major part of the game, like Trashos here? Or is just, "It breaks my immersion that this spell icon is grayed out outside of combat. Just let me cast it, I don't care that it can break the game, I won't abuse it". Probably for many people it's the latter, in which case maybe just use a mod? I don't think a designer should be obligated to provide options that can break his game, but mods exist for this reason.

 

[2house2fly]

Yes, I want it to be mandatory, and I want ALL general systems to be mandatory on the highest difficulty. If I can easily beat PoE on the highest difficulty without using any food, why is the food even there?
EDIT: If a system is not mandatory, then its use is bound to make the game too easy. I think this is common sense.

Yeah, I agree with this. I love Joshiez and I respect his approach to design usually(can't say I mind a lack of prebuffing) but there's no need or reason to accomodate newbie players or relax demand for system mastery on the highest difficulty, which you shouldn't be able to beat without having to use everything at your disposal. Hard is for me, POTD is for the grogs

 

[Lahey]

What do you feel most shaped you as a creative person and made you better at what you do?

I want him to upload his take.

 

[Trashos]

Well, Kundera says that great catastrophies bring about great art, and that Europe has great art because of the wars/revolutions and catastrophies. I think Kundera has a point.

 

[vonAchdorf]

He should have picked

 

[Don Peste]

Nothing new, I guess?

 

[Roguey]

Asked him about his New Vegas mod the other month, but didn't think to get a progress report on the Black Hound.

He said he stopped working on it years ago. Like circa-2009.

 

[2house2fly]

I remember hearing he specifically stopped working on it because he had to head up New Vegas