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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

FreeKaner

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Just how many beta testers do we need to convince Josh to bring back endurance/health?
Did you feel like that feature chamged anything? I did not.

Yes it was a nice system to counter-balance healing. I had a barbarian killed from full health in Alpine Dragon fight because I abused healing too much, so I had to restart and play a bit more conservatively and focusing more on defences and positioning instead of just mmo facetanking/healing. I also didn't even have a priest in that fight, what did barbarian in was her own self-heal, a paladin and a druid.
 
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Lacrymas

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If they somehow limit healing spells in 2 then the lack of the Health/Endurance mechanic won't really be a problem. Like long cast times or being high level, you already have a lot more limited casts per encounter. I never thought healing spells were the issue in the IE games, chugging healing potions was.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I thought the reason people were upset about this was because it's being replaced with Dragon Age-style health regen + wounds for knockouts, not because they're attached to the previous endurance/health system specifically.
 

Major_Blackhart

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So how is healing actually supposed to take place now in PoE2?
I always thought the mechanic made the previous game was way too easy. You never felt the crunch or the fear that came with endurance dropping.
 

Prime Junta

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So how is healing actually supposed to take place now in PoE2?
I always thought the mechanic made the previous game was way too easy. You never felt the crunch or the fear that came with endurance dropping.

Health bar regenerates fully after every fight. If you get knocked down, you get an injury. Each injury lowers your max health by 25% and has other penalties. Take four injuries and you permadie. Rest to heal injuries.
 

AwesomeButton

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I don't think endurance/health have ever impacted my decisions. When I got too low on health and I would have been in danger of dying in the next combat, I would just rest and reset my health meter.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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I don't think endurance/health have ever impacted my decisions. When I got too low on health and I would have been in danger of dying in the next combat, I would just rest and reset my health meter.

I thought it really adds another dimension to some of the bigger locations. Od Nua, Raedric's, catacombs, WM dungeons and so on. Locations where supply management gets complicated because you don't know the size of the place, you don't know if there isn't some boss encounter at the end of it, and leaving to resupply would require lots and lots of backtracking, so you tend take risks to push on.

With the outdoor maps I agree it never really made any difference because a set of camping supplies was more then enough to pick entire map clean and afterwards you would haul ass back to inn anyway to sell the loot and complete the quests.
 

Lacrymas

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The maps were claustrophobically small as well, including the dungeons, so there wasn't ever any danger of losing your supplies in the middle of a big dungeon crawl with no way out. Swordflight (a module for NWN) has a huge dungeon in which there is a point-of-no-return in the middle, with resting severely punished by ambushes. You had one "free" rest deeper into the dungeon and that's it. PoE would've greatly benefited from such a dungeon. Maybe an optional one, so the droolies don't complain.
 

jungl

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nah endurance/health didn't do shit. Try to add artificial depth to the game like its a tabletop game with a bunch of terminology so you feel like a good goy having spent $100. All it did was confuse players who are not kickstarter backers. People that don't follow games months before release learning everything in the game.
 

FreeKaner

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I wasn't a kickstarter backer to the game and I haven't followed anything about the game, the difference between endurance and health was immediately obvious in literally first fight with wolves in the camp, especially how they interact because your companion is a fighter with regeneration. It's basic logical connection I doubt anyone could miss it unless they were actively and aggressively making an effort to not comprehend a possible different health mechanism.
 

Sannom

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I thought the reason people were upset about this was because it's being replaced with Dragon Age-style health regen + wounds for knockouts, not because they're attached to the previous endurance/health system specifically.
My problem with it is that the PoE system made every encounter impactful, even if in only small increments when the enemies were too weak. Now, if you can manage knock-outs, you're peachy! I thought the Tyranny system, in which you gets wounds when you're very low on health, would have been better... although it had the drawback of not being really readable.

I really noticed the Health/Endurance system when I took the Devil for the first time. Lady, you're more fragile than the elven mage, what the fuck?
 

The Bishop

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I liked health/endurance in theory. My very first posts on codex were in defense of it. That being said, in practice it didn't feel quite as good.

Theoretically such mechanics are supposed to add strategic tension and extra resource for you to manage. In reality there was no real strategic dimension to PoE, nor can there be much in such style of game (unless you're ready to upset a huge chunk of your player base), so the only cases when health/endurance mechanic was actually relevant were:
A. One of your guys is near death and everybody else is full health and still have lots of spells left, so you have to blow your camping supplies early. Mild annoyance at best, because you can always backtrack, and it's not like you're particularly pressured by supplies anyway.
B. One of your chars is under constant pounding, and even though you can out-heal all the damage to endurance, you still risking running out of health withing a given fight. This one is more important and can potentially be a factor in some harder fights, however the significance of both of these cases can be completely negated by simply taking field triage/wound binding talents and equipping potions that boost health.

And this is why overall I don't think this mechanic made much of good in PoE. In general I'd rather have systems that actually work and play significant role, than those that only there for theoretical benefit, or worse yet, require make-believe to function. Being honest with yourself about what style of game you actually want to make is always a plus in my book, which is why I'm ok with changes they're making in PoE 2.
 

Iznaliu

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Health bar regenerates fully after every fight. If you get knocked down, you get an injury. Each injury lowers your max health by 25% and has other penalties. Take four injuries and you permadie. Rest to heal injuries.

I think PoE2 is calling the bar it has left Endurance, but I may be wrong.
 

AwesomeButton

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I liked health/endurance in theory. My very first posts on codex were in defense of it. That being said, in practice it didn't feel quite as good.

Theoretically such mechanics are supposed to add strategic tension and extra resource for you to manage. In reality there was no real strategic dimension to PoE, nor can there be much in such style of game (unless you're ready to upset a huge chunk of your player base), so the only cases when health/endurance mechanic was actually relevant were:
A. One of your guys is near death and everybody else is full health and still have lots of spells left, so you have to blow your camping supplies early. Mild annoyance at best, because you can always backtrack, and it's not like you're particularly pressured by supplies anyway.
B. One of your chars is under constant pounding, and even though you can out-heal all the damage to endurance, you still risking running out of health withing a given fight. This one is more important and can potentially be a factor in some harder fights, however the significance of both of these cases can be completely negated by simply taking field triage/wound binding talents and equipping potions that boost health.

And this is why overall I don't think this mechanic made much of good in PoE. In general I'd rather have systems that actually work and play significant role, than those that only there for theoretical benefit, or worse yet, require make-believe to function. Being honest with yourself about what style of game you actually want to make is always a plus in my book, which is why I'm ok with changes they're making in PoE 2.
Thanks for explaining in detail what was also my experience.

I think that there is a factor to the gameplay which both players and game designers don't notice, and which affects players' decision making and emotional state during playing. Why are players ever feeling like something important is on the line, if they can easily load the game from before the combat, or if they can backtrack?

From self-observation, I think that in the past, the slow loading times (ok, PoE had that, for many people), the total amount of time spent in combat up to a decisive moment where "you have to make it", and the amount of time it would take you to backtrack, were the things that added tension to combat. There is also a big number of small details that make a game "well polished" which add to immersion, and their side effect is that the player cares more about his playing style fitting the logic of the world in which he carries out his actions, and PoE missed those details often. This is probably down to area and encounter design, but I can't really put my finger on it.

For example, I would backtrack without feelings of remorse from some Engwithan tomb I don't care about, if I need one more set of camping supplies. But when I am deep in Galvino's lab, where encounters and traps are structured in such a way that my going through the dungeon becomes its own narrative (maybe this is what is affecting me), constructed through the challenges the party has to overcome, then suddenly if someone is low on health and I need to backtrack, I feel like this backtracking would break the flow of the story I'm writing by going through this dungeon. Such moments and such examples were rare for me in PoE. TWM aside, the dungeons and encounters in PoE felt slapped together.

My point is, I guess, that the health/endurance mechanic requires, more than other mechanics, that the player feels involved with his party's progression and inner logic of its actions in the context of the world. The mechanic feeling substantial is hanging on the player caring about actually roleplaying his party, more than other mechanics hang on this.

Whether you would feel health/endurance + camping supplies is an annoyance or adds to the tension depends on whether other aspects of the game are done well.

I think the system can be made more meaningful with the following change: you can carry only one camping supplies item, which functions as it does normally. Then, you can rest without using camping supplies, but this heals a smaller amount of health and doesn't remove injuries.

This could potentially increase the "tension", "I won't backtrack because it feels odd to do it" factor, but it's still down to how the player in question feels about it, it could still feel like an annoyance if the player isn't feeling immersed in the act of exploring the area, but is in a mood of just breezing through to clear the loot holding the tab key all the time.

Disclaimer, for those with weak reading comprehension who will open mouths bigger than themselves: all of this is my subjective opinion and experience.
 

The Bishop

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i don’t like strategic resource management

’k
Very wrong actually. Strategic management is one of my favorite things to do in a game, and if you asked me what game that I played I remember most fondly I would say Master of Orion. The difference is, however, is that in games like MoO strategic resource management is real and actually works. It's not just a matter of clicking many times in crafting menu to get as many consumables as you will ever need, or imagining in your head that you can't rest here, even though you absolutely can. In 4X games strategy is what you play with, win with, and ultimately lose with as well. What are the chances to lose on resource attrition in PoE? My rough estimate is somewhere around zero. Developers of content-focused RPGs don't like making this number any higher than that, because if you actually happen to lose on resources in such game you can't progress, and that means you will either have to replay a big chunk of content, or even have to restart the game - some of the biggest no-no's. So what you left with is strategic LARPing, going through the motions you really can't fail, something I indeed don't like. But I guess your taste is different.
 

Prime Junta

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Sure you can't lose in Pillars (or the IE games, or any game like it) because of resource attrition; you can always trek back for more camping supplies.

However, husbanding your resources so you don't have to is a big part of the experience. Deciding which per-rest abilities to use and when, adjusting tactics so the party loses health at a roughly even pace, sometimes even having a badly wounded character hang back and sit out fights in order to push a bit further... I enjoy it, and for me it's an integral part of the experience in this kind of thing. All the D&D based games had it. Dragon Age: Origins didn't -- all it had was injuries, healable with injury kits -- and it was a poorer experience for it. Pillars 1 had it. By the sound of it, Pillars 2 won't, or at the very least it'll be a much diluted experience. That's a loss.
 

AwesomeButton

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IMO, losing still works as a temporary dead end in IE games, but it has to take a long time, and presupposes that the player is not using metaknowledge from past playthroughs. In a 4X game where everything is much more random, it's more difficult for a player to benefit from metaknowledge from a past playthrough, but he can still abuse the strategic AI's limitations.

Losing in the IE games though, to feel "fair", has to be a slow process. Not talking about a simple "party wipe - game over screen with skulls", no. I'm talking about the process where little by little, after a big number of encounters which seem overwhelmingly difficult, the player realizes that his party is built inefficiently, and he has spread his attribute points wrong - both those things are haram for Josh btw. This is when the player gives up. One more proof that Josh is wrong with the no bad builds rule. This rule takes more away than adding regenerating health takes away from gameplay.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Dunno, I never really thought about D&D games in terms of winning or losing. In terms of stronger or weaker parties, better or worse tactics, for sure. I'm a serial re-starter; I usually play the first few hours as much as a dozen times until I figure I've got the system down, then I start a "proper" playthrough, at which point I very rarely hit really bad difficulty spikes.

(Also, "spreading your attribute points wrong" in the IE games and only figuring that out after a big number of tough encounters... is this something that could actually happen? Not counting PS:T with its bass-ackwards way of handling stats.)
 

AwesomeButton

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It could if you are a new player. That's why I mentioned metagaming knowledge.

My way of playing is making a party and sticking with it until I get bored of the game halfway through. When I return to it, weeks or months later, I usually start from the beginning with a new character.

It's rare that I will play something every day for more than two weeks in a row.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
It could if you are a new player. That's why I mentioned metagaming knowledge.

Uh... it says right on the character creation screen where you should put your pips. It's hardly meta.
 

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