There are people so consumed by hatred of JRPGs that they fail to appreciate FF VI

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Only good steampunk games that i can come up with,are Arcanum and Bioshock.

Final Fantasy VI (1994) a.k.a. FF3.

The airships you acquire in this game are closer to zeppelins than airplanes.

 

[fantadomat]

Only good steampunk games that i can come up with,are Arcanum and Bioshock.

Final Fantasy VI (1994) a.k.a. FF3.

The airships you acquire in this game are closer to zeppelins than airplanes.

We are talking about games here mate.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

We are talking about games here mate.

The RPG Codex loves to denigrate even the best JRPGs, yet votes Planescape: Torment its #1 CRPG of all time, while embracing Biowarean decline.

Spoiler

n.b. I think highly enough of Planescape: Torment that I place it in my list of top 20 RPGs, but it was heavily influenced by a game in the Final Fantasy series that wasn't anywhere near as good as the one mentioned above, and it also suffers from Bioware's execrable Infinity Engine.

 

[fantadomat]

We are talking about games here mate.

The RPG Codex loves to denigrate even the best JRPGs, yet votes Planescape: Torment its #1 CRPG of all time, while embracing Biowarean decline.

Spoiler

n.b. I think highly enough of Planescape: Torment that I place it in my list of top 20 RPGs, but it was heavily influenced by a game in the Final Fantasy series that wasn't anywhere near as good as the one mentioned above, and it also suffers from Bioware's execrable Infinity Engine.

You really like your jokes mate. To be honest JRPG genre have exactly one game that is remade over and over and over. Japs could compete with a rock in lack innovation and win. All the JRPGs are the same - mindless 4-6 party combat,endless grinding,shit monster anime style,long tedious journeys,soulless npcs,shitty repetitive side quest,boring level design made for PS et al. Still i must admit that jap have some good and original writers.

 

[CryptRat]

Sure, if what's you're calling innovation is features taking the genre down the abyss then yes maybe japanese devs innovate slower than western ones (although they do too), enjoy your quest markers ; you can't seriously consider RPGs evolved for the best over the 20 last years. 90% of the good RPGs form that period are those who actually stay close to old good ones (Knights of the chalice, Sword and sorcery underworld, Elminage Gothic ...).

 

[Cross]

The RPG Codex loves to denigrate even the best JRPGs, yet votes Planescape: Torment its #1 CRPG of all time, while embracing Biowarean decline.

n.b. I think highly enough of Planescape: Torment that I place it in my list of top 20 RPGs, but it was heavily influenced by a game in the Final Fantasy series that wasn't anywhere near as good as the one mentioned above, and it also suffers from Bioware's execrable Infinity Engine.

Considering PS:T was in development before FFVII was even released, what heavy influence did Planescape: Torment take from it? Cutscene-like spell animations that freeze the game (why would anyone praise this?) and a similar emphasis on story...with a completely different structure, tone, presentation and method of storytelling from JRPG's.

So not particularly similar. Basically every RPG with mandatory party members is more similar to a JRPG than Planescape: Torment (e.g. every post-NWN Bioware game).

Planescape: Torment is a game that deliberately plays with cRPG tropes (e.g. instead of beginning the game by creating and naming your own character, you get a pre-defined character whose name and identity you only uncover at the very end of the game). By contrast, it doesn't have anything to say about the Japanese RPG genre.

The RPG Codex loves to denigrate even the best JRPGs

I recently played Final Fantasy VI for the first time to finally see what all the buzz is about and I'm at a loss on what's supposed to be so mind-blowing about it. It's completely on rails, which would be tolerable if the locations weren't an endless succession of boring caves, empty fields and generic towns. Combat is a joke. Random encounters are annoyingly frequent. Dialogue and 'characterization' is laughably bad. Pretty much everything else I've played on the SNES was more entertaining than this. Maybe it gets better past the first few hours I played, but I doubt it considering I've always seen the beginning described in positive terms.

It isn't a good game, much less a good steampunk game (from what I played, the steampunk element was barely noticeable as anything more than window dressing).

Sure, if what's you're calling innovation is features taking the genre down the abyss then yes maybe japanese devs innovate slower than western ones (although they do too), enjoy your quest markers ; you can't seriously consider RPGs evolved for the best over the 20 last years. 90% of the good RPGs form that period are those who actually stay close to old good ones (Knights of the chalice, Sword and sorcery underworld, Elminage Gothic ...).

So removal of character creation and customization, lack of permadeath and other long-term consequences, reducing the average party size from 6 to 3 characters, highly linear structure and general lack of exploration, greatly simplified gameplay systems (including a complete lack of non-combat gameplay) and adding in hours of unskippable cutscenes is your idea of elevating the RPG genre? Japanese RPG's did far more to streamline and homogenize the genre, and they've been doing it since the 80's (though to be fair, former cRPG developers like Bioware did much the same when they made the leap to console).

 

[Infinitron]

Considering PS:T was in development before FFVII was even released, what heavy influence did Planescape: Torment take from it? Cutscene-like spell animations that freeze the game (why would anyone praise this?) and a similar emphasis on story...

Sui generis companions with extravagantly unique character models and fixed equipment loadouts (no armor, limited to no weapon changing). This was highly unusual for a western fantasy RPG in 1999 and immediately screamed "FF7" to players who were familiar with both genres.

I recently played Final Fantasy VI for the first time to finally see what all the buzz is about and I'm at a loss on what's supposed to be so mind-blowing about it. It's completely on rails

You're wrong, keep playing

 

[Jokzore]

JRPGs are a heap of garbage.

 

[Siveon]

JRPGs are a heap of garbage.

Most of anything is garbage, what's your point, newfag?

 

[Cromwell]

alts and Newfags are a heap of garbage

 

[Grauken]

I recently played Final Fantasy VI for the first time to finally see what all the buzz is about and I'm at a loss on what's supposed to be so mind-blowing about it. It's completely on rails

You're wrong, keep playing

He's not wrong about the game being garbage

 

[duanth123]

But what is a JRPG?

#Icanroleplaymasterchief

 

[Jokzore]

JRPGs are a heap of garbage.

Most of anything is garbage, what's your point, newfag?

Never said ''most'' , fag.

 

[Ash]

Sui generis companions with extravagantly unique character models and fixed equipment loadouts (no armor, limited to no weapon changing). This was highly unusual for a western fantasy RPG in 1999 and immediately screamed "FF7" to players who were familiar with both genres.

While there is unfortunately minimal in the way of equipment in FF7, the materia system sort of substituted it, and influenced a variety of things from stats (offensive and defensive) and active and passive abilities both. For example, just from equipping "fire materia" results in a huge impact of -10% max HP and -4 strength, among other things. I replayed this game recently with a ROM hack to increase the difficulty and the materia system really shone with it. I'm not ashamed to admit I really enjoyed the game. A lot. Great artwork, great music, charming characters and story (immature and/or nonsensical Japanese elements be damned), and gameplay brought to its potential with the hack.
While there's not much freedom with the plot as one may expect from an RPG, there's still plenty enough to engage with the gameplay, from systems to exploration to combat. It's not really a "true" RPG, but whatever it is, it is still pretty damn cool. And there are legitimate reasons one may want to reduce choice in a story, for better or worse. And you still get the occasional dialogue option here and there anyways.

And yeah, FF6 is rather bland gameplay-wise comparable to the blandness that is Chrono Trigger, until it opens up more...which takes quite some time (8-10 hrs? Something like 20% of the game). It pays off though.

Regarding the actual title: JRPGs are not what many seem to think. Castlevania: SOTN is a JRPG. Vagrant Story is a JRPG. Parasite Eve 2 is a JRPG. Kings Field is a JRPG. These are all wildly different games. They're not all top-down shit examples of turn-based combat. As for whether or not they're as good as PS:T...Writing, probably not. Gameplay? Often better, at least the ones I've played. Some early JRPGs really did have shit banal boring gameplay though, which is no doubt where the stereotype comes from. I personally can't stand JRPGs with overly anime art style or shit gameplay, but thankfully there's plenty that do not suffer from these traits.

 

[Cross]

Sui generis companions with extravagantly unique character models and fixed equipment loadouts (no armor, limited to no weapon changing). This was highly unusual for a western fantasy RPG in 1999 and immediately screamed "FF7" to players who were familiar with both genres.

It would have been highly unusual for a JRPG too. JRPG characters may not change their appearance to reflect what they're actually wearing, but they have no shortage of equipment: switching to better armor, shields and weapons happens very frequently in those games. Most of the companions in Torment OTOH aren't even capable of changing their starting weapon and armor (if they even have any), they're stuck with with them for the entire game. Even the tattoos are only usable by Annah and Dak'kon.

TNO himself is the obvious exception, since he isn't a companion. Which brings me to another point. Ultima IV codified the setup of character creation of a customizable main character followed by in-game recruitment of non-customizeable companions (or at least less customizable than the main character), which is used in most party-based cRPG's with an emphasis on story, like Fallout, Baldur's Gate and Torment. OTOH, I can't think of a single JRPG that uses this setup, they tend to treat the main character the same as the other party members.

I didn't think anyone actually took the 'PS:T is a JRPG' meme seriously.

 

[Nathir]

We are talking about games here mate.

The RPG Codex loves to denigrate even the best JRPGs, yet votes Planescape: Torment its #1 CRPG of all time, while embracing Biowarean decline.

Spoiler

n.b. I think highly enough of Planescape: Torment that I place it in my list of top 20 RPGs, but it was heavily influenced by a game in the Final Fantasy series that wasn't anywhere near as good as the one mentioned above, and it also suffers from Bioware's execrable Infinity Engine.

You really like your jokes mate. To be honest JRPG genre have exactly one game that is remade over and over and over. Japs could compete with a rock in lack innovation and win. All the JRPGs are the same - mindless 4-6 party combat,endless grinding,shit monster anime style,long tedious journeys,soulless npcs,shitty repetitive side quest,boring level design made for PS et al. Still i must admit that jap have some good and original writers.

Could you be any more wrong? Original writers? If anything, this is the biggest uniform weakness of JRPGS (and anime). Not to mention the ridiculous over-generalisations. Your complaints could just as easily be said for any other RPGs. As for ''shit monster anime style'', jrpgs can have some of the most amazing and unique artwork styles. Two people I'm fond of are Kazuma Kaneko and Yoshitaka Amano. E.g. this or this.

 

[Infinitron]

It would have been highly unusual for a JRPG too.

Yeah but we're talking about FF7.

I didn't think anyone actually took the 'PS:T is a JRPG' meme seriously.

"PS:T is a JRPG" is a meme. "PS:T was influenced by JRPGs and in particular FF7" isn't.

But don't take my word for it, ask Chris Avellone.

 

[Cross]

It would have been highly unusual for a JRPG too.

Yeah but we're talking about FF7.

So was I. FF7 has three types of equipment: a weapon slot, an accessory slot and an 'accessory' slot that's functionally identical to an armor slot. Unlike Torment, all the characters have dozens of different armor pieces and weapons they can equip.

Incidentally, do you know what other RPG has companions who are limited in what equipment they can use due to their sprites lacking the required frames of animation? Fallout, also made by Black Isle.

"PS:T is a JRPG" is a meme. "PS:T was influenced by JRPGs and in particular FF7" isn't.

Sure, I said as much in my first post. FF7 was the best-selling RPG of all time (at the time of its release): everyone in the industry was paying attention to it. But bearing in mind that PS:T was already in development for at least a year before FF7 was released and that its development was then put on hold to work on Fallout 2, I question how much opportunity there was to be influenced by FF7 besides some cinematic flourishes.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10604

Colin: It started in 1996, because it was in pre-production when I first showed up out there in October 1996. I didn’t move onto the team until April 1997, and then we got side-tracked by Fallout 2. We shipped in December 1999 so it was at least 3 years.

 

[Infinitron]

Wouldn't the fact that it was put on hold give it time to be influenced by FF7 when actual production started?

Chris Avellone is known to be a fan of JRPGs older than FF7 too (big Chrono Trigger fanboy). Again, best to just ask him!

 

[Hyperion]

mindless 4-6 party combat,endless grinding,long tedious journeys,soulless npcs,shitty repetitive side quest,boring level design made for PS et al

You just described 90% of WRPG's and JRPG's both. The latter half of the bitching is especially focused on WRPG's. Walking simulators were made ubiquitous by fucking WRPG's and have pretty much ruined every single modern, well-funded game. Thanks Bethesda. Shitty repetitive side quests? Fucking MMO's, particularly WoW, which I don't know if you noticed, is western.

shit monster anime style

Probably the best realized dragon in a fantasy RPG seen to date. And it's Dragon's Dogma. Personally I believe monster design is the one facet JRPG wins unanimously against WRPG's.

So removal of character creation and customization

You're right, the original Final Fantasy didn't have character creation. FF2 didn't allow for characters to be built any way you wanted. FF3 and 5 didn't have a job system. FF6 didn't allow you to micromanage Espers through leveling to specialize your characters in any way you wanted. there wasn't an accessory to let you bypass equipment restrictions and give a gigantic sword and shield to a 70 year old man. You couldn't make a viable character by inflicting the Imp status on them and giving them a special set of gear. You couldn't dual wield, and potentially attack 8 fucking times every turn. You couldn't cast the strongest spells twice in a single turn at the cost of 1 MP each shot. FF7 didn't allow for unique character builds through materia slotting, FF8 didn't have a junction system. FF12 doesn't have a job system in its later iterations. There don't exist countless Wizardry clones being made exclusively by Japanese developers. Dragon Warrior didn't have job systems in most of its iterations until 8.

 

[fantadomat]

Amusing trick here. Make a thread in the jrpg forum and cut my parrots from another thread,and watch the retard rating rain. I can even feel the here.

 

[tet666]

Oh it's this topic again, how exciting...

 

[Alex]

No.
Yes.

 

[Machocruz]

JRPG lives or dies on its charm, how expressive the characters and presentation it is so to speak. Some WRPGs can get away with having zero personality and dull presentation because they have more complex systems. JRPGs still haven't really evolved past Ultima 3.

 

[abnaxus]

JRPGs are for fags.