Building fantasy cultures underuses scientific knowledge - Discuss

[IncendiaryDevice]

The Gargoyle war in U6 The False Prophet springs to mind here, two unique cultures but with many similarities, who the player must reconcile through exploring each and trying to make common ground. A real role reversal and a chance to flesh out a previous enemy species religion, language and history. Instead of just killing them in linear corridors, selling their crap, talking and repeat all over until bossfight.

Omg, If I have to act as a messenger boy between rival factions in an RPG one more time I think I'll scream...

"Go tell Ogobugoo I wont accede to his request to make peace until he agrees to return my electric dildo"
"Go tell Ogobuguu I wont return her electric dildo until she returns my lawnmower"
"Go tell Ogobugoo I can't return his lawnmower as some Goblins stole it"

Go to do lawnwower retrieval quest...

"You can have the lawnmower in exchange for an electric dildo"

*Slaughters every last one of the fuckers and goes to cash in and move the fuck on with the game*...

 

[Iznaliu]

I think part of the issue that is being discussed here is that most RPGs are made by large teams nowadays, meaning that any change from the formula must be agreed upon by all members of the team.

 

[fantadomat]

I think part of the issue that is being discussed here is that most RPGs are made by large teams nowadays, meaning that any change from the formula must be agreed upon by all members of the team.

Nah changes are agreed by the lead designer.

 

[Mastermind]

what a disgusting self-masturbatory thread full of typical codex tards jerking off into each other's mouths. In today's age of diversity i doubt it even occurs to the average game developers that there is even any difference between cultures other than clothing, food and language, and it makes some sense not to implement the latter because nobody wants to play a game where they can't understand shit from what other people are saying. IMO it would only be plausible in a daggerfall/Arena sized game where you have enough content in your starting country that your character can get away with not learning a new language for a while. blame average gamers (who individually have pretty much no input) all you want but Morrowind was a resounding success on xbox in spite of how newbie unfriendly it was for a reason. the blame lies almost entirely with the devs themselves. they are lazy and uncreative, and if you think it's because marketing, or the suits are always on their ass just look at the diarrhea Obsidian produces even without publisher input. PoE only ended up being decent after the expansions because the average obsidian gamer (not exactly nobel prize laureates) kept complaining.

 

[fantadomat]

what a disgusting self-masturbatory thread full of typical codex tards jerking off into each other's mouths. In today's age of diversity i doubt it even occurs to the average game developers that there is even any difference between cultures other than clothing, food and language, and it makes some sense not to implement the latter because nobody wants to play a game where they can't understand shit from what other people are saying. IMO it would only be plausible in a daggerfall/Arena sized game where you have enough content in your starting country that your character can get away with not learning a new language for a while. blame average gamers (who individually have pretty much no input) all you want but Morrowind was a resounding success on xbox in spite of how newbie unfriendly it was for a reason. the blame lies almost entirely with the devs themselves. they are lazy and uncreative, and if you think it's because marketing, or the suits are always on their ass just look at the diarrhea Obsidian produces even without publisher input. PoE only ended up being decent after the expansions because the average obsidian gamer (not exactly nobel prize laureates) kept complaining.

Welcome to the club of "typical codex tards jerking off into each other's mouths"! How does it taste?

 

[Neanderthal]

The Gargoyle war in U6 The False Prophet springs to mind here, two unique cultures but with many similarities, who the player must reconcile through exploring each and trying to make common ground. A real role reversal and a chance to flesh out a previous enemy species religion, language and history. Instead of just killing them in linear corridors, selling their crap, talking and repeat all over until bossfight.

Omg, If I have to act as a messenger boy between rival factions in an RPG one more time I think I'll scream...

"Go tell Ogobugoo I wont accede to his request to make peace until he agrees to return my electric dildo"
"Go tell Ogobuguu I wont return her electric dildo until she returns my lawnmower"
"Go tell Ogobugoo I can't return his lawnmower as some Goblins stole it"

Go to do lawnwower retrieval quest...

"You can have the lawnmower in exchange for an electric dildo"

*Slaughters every last one of the fuckers and goes to cash in and move the fuck on with the game*...

Thats not what you did in False Prophet.

 

[AwesomeButton]

what a disgusting self-masturbatory thread full of typical codex tards jerking off into each other's mouths. In today's age of diversity i doubt it even occurs to the average game developers that there is even any difference between cultures other than clothing, food and language, and it makes some sense not to implement the latter because nobody wants to play a game where they can't understand shit from what other people are saying. IMO it would only be plausible in a daggerfall/Arena sized game where you have enough content in your starting country that your character can get away with not learning a new language for a while. blame average gamers (who individually have pretty much no input) all you want but Morrowind was a resounding success on xbox in spite of how newbie unfriendly it was for a reason. the blame lies almost entirely with the devs themselves. they are lazy and uncreative, and if you think it's because marketing, or the suits are always on their ass just look at the diarrhea Obsidian produces even without publisher input. PoE only ended up being decent after the expansions because the average obsidian gamer (not exactly nobel prize laureates) kept complaining.

Welcome to the club of "typical codex tards jerking off into each other's mouths"! How does it taste?

I was going to reply "stop posting on the Codex", but actually the more he opens his mouth the better, right?

 

[Nutria]

it's basically the story of the first Italian War in the late 15th c.

There are so many stories from that era that are better than anything you could possibly make up. I've got a book of gossip from the 1500s and it's way beyond anything imaginable. The baby antichrist born in Iraq who springs out of the womb covered in fir and immediately says "I am the Christ!" The Italian dance instructor who ends up being a gigolo for the Queen of Poland until her husband finds out and starts an international manhunt for him. The twenty different bullshit rumors about what happened to the Spanish Armada.

This stuff is out there for anyone to rip off. All it takes is to spend a little time reading primary sources instead of getting all your historical knowledge from comic books.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Thats not what you did in False Prophet.

Sure. Sure.

What we're [you're] all forgetting in our [your] desire to magically transform 'simple' RPGs into works of academic genius is that you're all talking about completely different historical disciplines. If a developer was to achieve all of the things that are being suggested in this thread then they'd have to be more well-read that a don at oxford university.

Understanding and closely examining different historical cultures - That's actually Anthropolgy

Understanding and closely representing what lesser known historical cultures used as objects of daily life - That's actually Archaeology

Understanding and replicating historical events within a new setting - That's regular History

Understanding and taking inspiration from historical fantasy - That's Literature

Creating any kind of narrative which attempts to use the above - That's Creative Writing

In most of these cases it takes a lifetime to become an expert in any of these fields to a point where what would exist in a game would look 'competent', and whatever was included would still get criticised by other experts who held a different view, cos even experts disagree. Sure, a developer could have a personal specialist interest they've self-read and insert their ideas into an RPG, but its not something you should expect as a genre norm as a result. When people add interesting and curious bits of originality to an RPG its not supposed to set a precedent, all following RPGs do not have to adhere to the individual sparks of interest from every other game. And if those sparks do become norms, do you really expect developers who didn't have that personal interest in the relevant subject to produce the same quality of content as the original, or do you think they'll just do a popamole version which quickly becomes a tired and jaded cliche?

Anthropology, huge sidetrack. Archaeology, huge sidetrack, History, huge sidetrack. If someone's going to be making a living out of Fantasy Fiction then the field they should be concentrating on is... Historical Fantasy, from Homer to Conan the Barbarian. And the reason I say this is because of structure. Fantasy, as a distinct brand, isn't merely "something that's made up", its a whole network of established emotional hooks which is restrictive within it's conventions while being unlimited within those conventions.

It's not that deviation from fantasy conventions are bad in a game, quite the opposite, they do add a spark of originality to that specific game, its that each time you add a spark which pulls you away from the conventions you are, essentially, pulling yourself away from fantasy. Factions, crafting, castle/house-building, backtracking, menial quests et al and forever etc of the many things that's I've long since stopped keeping track of, are all things which prevent the player from moving forward with their adventure. Sure, its nice if any cultures you do happen across in your journeys are decently fleshed out, but you really don't need to know that much about them, just as long as what you do experience makes it feel like the cultures are 'real' and 'imaginative enough' for the setting in which you encounter them. So a starting hub probably more-so than a village you pass through, etc.

 

[fantadomat]

what a disgusting self-masturbatory thread full of typical codex tards jerking off into each other's mouths. In today's age of diversity i doubt it even occurs to the average game developers that there is even any difference between cultures other than clothing, food and language, and it makes some sense not to implement the latter because nobody wants to play a game where they can't understand shit from what other people are saying. IMO it would only be plausible in a daggerfall/Arena sized game where you have enough content in your starting country that your character can get away with not learning a new language for a while. blame average gamers (who individually have pretty much no input) all you want but Morrowind was a resounding success on xbox in spite of how newbie unfriendly it was for a reason. the blame lies almost entirely with the devs themselves. they are lazy and uncreative, and if you think it's because marketing, or the suits are always on their ass just look at the diarrhea Obsidian produces even without publisher input. PoE only ended up being decent after the expansions because the average obsidian gamer (not exactly nobel prize laureates) kept complaining.

Welcome to the club of "typical codex tards jerking off into each other's mouths"! How does it taste?

I was going to reply "stop posting on the Codex", but actually the more he opens his mouth the better, right?

Yeah love stupid self-righteous hypocrites that whine about something and the next thing they do is the thing they whine about.

 

[fantadomat]

Thats not what you did in False Prophet.

Sure. Sure.

What we're [you're] all forgetting in our [your] desire to magically transform 'simple' RPGs into works of academic genius is that you're all talking about completely different historical disciplines. If a developer was to achieve all of the things that are being suggested in this thread then they'd have to be more well-read that a don at oxford university.

Understanding and closely examining different historical cultures - That's actually Anthropolgy

Understanding and closely representing what lesser known historical cultures used as objects of daily life - That's actually Archaeology

Understanding and replicating historical events within a new setting - That's regular History

Understanding and taking inspiration from historical fantasy - That's Literature

Creating any kind of narrative which attempts to use the above - That's Creative Writing

In most of these cases it takes a lifetime to become an expert in any of these fields to a point where what would exist in a game would look 'competent', and whatever was included would still get criticised by other experts who held a different view, cos even experts disagree. Sure, a developer could have a personal specialist interest they've self-read and insert their ideas into an RPG, but its not something you should expect as a genre norm as a result. When people add interesting and curious bits of originality to an RPG its not supposed to set a precedent, all following RPGs do not have to adhere to the individual sparks of interest from every other game. And if those sparks do become norms, do you really expect developers who didn't have that personal interest in the relevant subject to produce the same quality of content as the original, or do you think they'll just do a popamole version which quickly becomes a tired and jaded cliche?

Anthropology, huge sidetrack. Archaeology, huge sidetrack, History, huge sidetrack. If someone's going to be making a living out of Fantasy Fiction then the field they should be concentrating on is... Historical Fantasy, from Homer to Conan the Barbarian. And the reason I say this is because of structure. Fantasy, as a distinct brand, isn't merely "something that's made up", its a whole network of established emotional hooks which is restrictive within it's conventions while being unlimited within those conventions.

It's not that deviation from fantasy conventions are bad in a game, quite the opposite, they do add a spark of originality to that specific game, its that each time you add a spark which pulls you away from the conventions you are, essentially, pulling yourself away from fantasy. Factions, crafting, castle/house-building, backtracking, menial quests et al and forever etc of the many things that's I've long since stopped keeping track of, are all things which prevent the player from moving forward with their adventure. Sure, its nice if any cultures you do happen across in your journeys are decently fleshed out, but you really don't need to know that much about them, just as long as what you do experience makes it feel like the cultures are 'real' and 'imaginative enough' for the setting in which you encounter them. So a starting hub probably more-so than a village you pass through, etc.

OR he just have to have real normal education,not an american millennial education. Most thing here are kind of a basic knowledge if you live history. Maybe you should stop reading comics and start reading normal books.

 

[Neanderthal]

Thats not what you did in False Prophet.

Sure. Sure.

What we're [you're] all forgetting in our [your] desire to magically transform 'simple' RPGs into works of academic genius is that you're all talking about completely different historical disciplines. If a developer was to achieve all of the things that are being suggested in this thread then they'd have to be more well-read that a don at oxford university.

Understanding and closely examining different historical cultures - That's actually Anthropolgy

Understanding and closely representing what lesser known historical cultures used as objects of daily life - That's actually Archaeology

Understanding and replicating historical events within a new setting - That's regular History

Understanding and taking inspiration from historical fantasy - That's Literature

Creating any kind of narrative which attempts to use the above - That's Creative Writing

In most of these cases it takes a lifetime to become an expert in any of these fields to a point where what would exist in a game would look 'competent', and whatever was included would still get criticised by other experts who held a different view, cos even experts disagree. Sure, a developer could have a personal specialist interest they've self-read and insert their ideas into an RPG, but its not something you should expect as a genre norm as a result. When people add interesting and curious bits of originality to an RPG its not supposed to set a precedent, all following RPGs do not have to adhere to the individual sparks of interest from every other game. And if those sparks do become norms, do you really expect developers who didn't have that personal interest in the relevant subject to produce the same quality of content as the original, or do you think they'll just do a popamole version which quickly becomes a tired and jaded cliche?

Anthropology, huge sidetrack. Archaeology, huge sidetrack, History, huge sidetrack. If someone's going to be making a living out of Fantasy Fiction then the field they should be concentrating on is... Historical Fantasy, from Homer to Conan the Barbarian. And the reason I say this is because of structure. Fantasy, as a distinct brand, isn't merely "something that's made up", its a whole network of established emotional hooks which is restrictive within it's conventions while being unlimited within those conventions.

It's not that deviation from fantasy conventions are bad in a game, quite the opposite, they do add a spark of originality to that specific game, its that each time you add a spark which pulls you away from the conventions you are, essentially, pulling yourself away from fantasy. Factions, crafting, castle/house-building, backtracking, menial quests et al and forever etc of the many things that's I've long since stopped keeping track of, are all things which prevent the player from moving forward with their adventure. Sure, its nice if any cultures you do happen across in your journeys are decently fleshed out, but you really don't need to know that much about them, just as long as what you do experience makes it feel like the cultures are 'real' and 'imaginative enough' for the setting in which you encounter them. So a starting hub probably more-so than a village you pass through, etc.

You're overstating it, a bit o worldbuilding an uniqueness int that hard to do, owt to break up grind o usual tired old ARPG shit I say.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

OR he just have to have real normal education,not an american millennial education. Most thing here are kind of a basic knowledge if you live history. Maybe you should stop reading comics and start reading normal books.

Sometimes being flippant works, sometimes it doesn't...

You're overstating it, a bit o worldbuilding an uniqueness int that hard to do, owt to break up grind o usual tired old ARPG shit I say.

What an amazing quote. I'm overstating something? A bit of world building? Oh how you minimise your own extreme before lashing out the true overstatement and the truth that you have zero interest in bits: "Break up the grind of the usual tired old aRPG shit" insinuating what exactly? Factions are exactly the kind of tired old shit you get in most wannabee RPGs...

 

[Mastermind]

what a disgusting self-masturbatory thread full of typical codex tards jerking off into each other's mouths. In today's age of diversity i doubt it even occurs to the average game developers that there is even any difference between cultures other than clothing, food and language, and it makes some sense not to implement the latter because nobody wants to play a game where they can't understand shit from what other people are saying. IMO it would only be plausible in a daggerfall/Arena sized game where you have enough content in your starting country that your character can get away with not learning a new language for a while. blame average gamers (who individually have pretty much no input) all you want but Morrowind was a resounding success on xbox in spite of how newbie unfriendly it was for a reason. the blame lies almost entirely with the devs themselves. they are lazy and uncreative, and if you think it's because marketing, or the suits are always on their ass just look at the diarrhea Obsidian produces even without publisher input. PoE only ended up being decent after the expansions because the average obsidian gamer (not exactly nobel prize laureates) kept complaining.

Welcome to the club of "typical codex tards jerking off into each other's mouths"! How does it taste?

I was going to reply "stop posting on the Codex", but actually the more he opens his mouth the better, right?

Yeah love stupid self-righteous hypocrites that whine about something and the next thing they do is the thing they whine about.

I complain about you retards always blaming "casual gamers", then I go on to blame the devs themselves. So how the fuck is that "the thing they whine about", you shaved assmonkey? There's nothing more offputting than illiterate low IQ assholes opening their mouths to bitch. This is why I'm a monarchist, I should be able to just send you to the gallows whenever I see a stupid post like this.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I complain about you retards always blaming "casual gamers", then I go on to blame the devs themselves. So how the fuck is that "the thing they whine about", you shaved assmonkey? There's nothing more offputting than illiterate low IQ assholes opening their mouths to bitch. This is why I'm a monarchist, I should be able to just send you to the gallows whenever I see a stupid post like this.

I think the bar is set pretty low on both ends: the audience doesn't ask for originality, the huge mass off players are satisfied playing through the same storyline (you are half-god, or can become a god, or are somehow special, and the world's fate hangs on you realizing your supernatural potential) in pretty much identical settings. On the other hand, game designers do not appear to demand much in terms of originality from either themselves or the other designers. PoE II being set in a region with highly varying climates and cultures seems to be a notable exception in the last years, and we've yet to see how good it will be executed.

It's ok. I'm used to edgy overreactions. Learn to read before you write, it's usually less effort.

 

[Freddie]

Thats not what you did in False Prophet.

Sure. Sure.

What we're [you're] all forgetting in our [your] desire to magically transform 'simple' RPGs into works of academic genius is that you're all talking about completely different historical disciplines. If a developer was to achieve all of the things that are being suggested in this thread then they'd have to be more well-read that a don at oxford university.

Understanding and closely examining different historical cultures - That's actually Anthropolgy

Understanding and closely representing what lesser known historical cultures used as objects of daily life - That's actually Archaeology

Understanding and replicating historical events within a new setting - That's regular History

Understanding and taking inspiration from historical fantasy - That's Literature

Creating any kind of narrative which attempts to use the above - That's Creative Writing

What happened to economics?

 

[Nutria]

History, huge sidetrack. If someone's going to be making a living out of Fantasy Fiction then the field they should be concentrating on is... Historical Fantasy, from Homer to Conan the Barbarian.

If you're trying to read Homer as just a work of literature then half of it is going over your head. How are you going to rip off something that you don't understand? We live in an era where you can get on Google Earth and jump right to the places where Odysseus goes. There's no reason to give up all that context and just treat it like generic superhero bullshit.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

What happened to economics?

?

If you're trying to read Homer as just a work of literature then half of it is going over your head. How are you going to rip off something that you don't understand? We live in an era where you can get on Google Earth and jump right to the places where Odysseus goes. There's no reason to give up all that context and just treat it like generic superhero bullshit.

Funny that, considering no-one even knows where Troy was supposed to be. And anyway, what do you gain by converting something as fantastical as Homer back into dry history? Fucks have been trying to do that with King Arthur for decades and it produces about as much watchable entertainment as paint drying.

 

[AwesomeButton]

The average player has zero competence in the fields of archaeology, antropology, etc. so the designer (not "developer") doesn't need to spend "a lifetime" to become good enough for the kind of audience he is targeting with the game.

It's enough to have a good general knowledge, as I have previously said, in order to produce something that will be consistent, but still appear original to the uninformed player/reader/viewer.

I can easily bring out good examples from both books, films and games, but I will not do so, to prevent from nitpicking and sidetracking the conversation.

Walls of text battling strawmen which were never raised as arguments are as always welcome, and will be carelessly ignored.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

The average player has zero competence in the fields of archaeology, antropology, etc. so the designer (not "developer") doesn't need to spend "a lifetime" to become good enough for the kind of audience he is targeting with the game.

It's enough to have a good general knowledge, as I have previously said, in order to produce something that will be consistent, but still appear original to the uninformed player/reader/viewer.

I can easily bring out good examples from both books, films and games, but I will not do so, to prevent from nitpicking and sidetracking the conversation.

Walls of text battling strawmen which were never raised as arguments are as always welcome, and will be carelessly ignored.

Its funny how you mention strawmen when you never actually cite any examples of games that don't produce something that is consistent and that doesn't appear original to the uninformed player/reader/viewer.

Oh, yes, you're one example was elves in the Dragon Age series and some bollocks about Baldur's Gate and Pillars of Eternity, because some random low hanging fruit from small segments of one brand of games somehow justifies all your 'contributions'...

 

[Mastermind]

I complain about you retards always blaming "casual gamers", then I go on to blame the devs themselves. So how the fuck is that "the thing they whine about", you shaved assmonkey? There's nothing more offputting than illiterate low IQ assholes opening their mouths to bitch. This is why I'm a monarchist, I should be able to just send you to the gallows whenever I see a stupid post like this.

I think the bar is set pretty low on both ends: the audience doesn't ask for originality, the huge mass off players are satisfied playing through the same storyline (you are half-god, or can become a god, or are somehow special, and the world's fate hangs on you realizing your supernatural potential) in pretty much identical settings. On the other hand, game designers do not appear to demand much in terms of originality from either themselves or the other designers. PoE II being set in a region with highly varying climates and cultures seems to be a notable exception in the last years, and we've yet to see how good it will be executed.

It's ok. I'm used to edgy overreactions. Learn to read before you write, it's usually less effort.

 

[Serus]

The average player has zero competence in the fields of archaeology, antropology, etc. so the designer (not "developer") doesn't need to spend "a lifetime" to become good enough for the kind of audience he is targeting with the game.

It's enough to have a good general knowledge, as I have previously said, in order to produce something that will be consistent, but still appear original to the uninformed player/reader/viewer.

I can easily bring out good examples from both books, films and games, but I will not do so, to prevent from nitpicking and sidetracking the conversation.

Walls of text battling strawmen which were never raised as arguments are as always welcome, and will be carelessly ignored.

Its funny how you mention strawmen when you never actually cite any examples of games that don't produce something that is consistent and that doesn't appear original to the uninformed player/reader/viewer.

Oh, yes, you're one example was elves in the Dragon Age series and some bollocks about Baldur's Gate and Pillars of Eternity, because some random low hanging fruit from small segments of one brand of games somehow justifies all your 'contributions'...

But why are you content with games being made with only the "uninformed" players in mind ?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

But why are you content with games being made with only the "uninformed" players in mind ?

What games?

Uninformed about what?

 

[Neanderthal]

You're overstating it, a bit o worldbuilding an uniqueness int that hard to do, owt to break up grind o usual tired old ARPG shit I say.

What an amazing quote. I'm overstating something? A bit of world building? Oh how you minimise your own extreme before lashing out the true overstatement and the truth that you have zero interest in bits: "Break up the grind of the usual tired old aRPG shit" insinuating what exactly? Factions are exactly the kind of tired old shit you get in most wannabee RPGs...

Thank you, have to admit it was pretty amazing, but thats just modest old me. I've got a great interest in bits, they serve to mark out most good games i've found, the attention to detail, the little flourishes, the hidden sub plots, the glorious chance to get lost and wander where Dragons be, difficult to find content, all good bits in my book.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Thank you, have to admit it was pretty amazing, but thats just modest old me. I've got a great interest in bits, they serve to mark out most good games i've found, the attention to detail, the little flourishes, the hidden sub plots, the glorious chance to get lost and wander where Dragons be, difficult to find content, all good bits in my book.

Ok, so which games that you've played don't have enough of that? And what's any of that got to do with being more anthropological in creature culture?