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An assessment of Oblivion after having first played Skyrim, then Morrowind

Bester

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Any game featuring a lot of scripted and systemic reactivity to your character's actions (Oblvion has the latter, but so does Grand Theft Auto).
That's it?

I find it difficult to differentiate between "scripted" and "systemic", since systemic is still scripted. At what point, the complexity of scripts makes it that it's called systemic is a mystery.

Did POE even have any "systemic" reactivity under his definition? What example of systemic reaction does he mean in a game like BG? Shop prices based on reputation is the only thing that comes to mind, which would mean that BG is barely an RPG at all.
 

Ash

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Can somebody explain me how is Morrowind a walking sim? It has many means of fast travel and running speed improvement. I don't think any other game in the series has as many.

When I say walking sim I mean "the best 'gameplay' is walking around finding people so you can talk to them." Nothing to do with speed or method of travel.

No, the "best" gameplay is exploration as a whole, such as non-linear dungeons featuring diverse gameplay (even frequently platforming and swimming) rather than Skryim's linear loop dungeons designed for the lowest common denominator. It's the survival systems. It's having to actually think and strategize regarding how you're going to build your character like a good RPG generally does, unlike the sequels. It's the puzzle elements that aren't like the copy-paste kindergarten picture matching in Skyrim. It's all the stat systems hiding how shit the combat is. Sure, the sequels may have made combat less annoying, the odds of a hit were ridiculous in MW, but all you're left with is awful, awful "chopping wood" combat that is not in any way better. I'd never design game that way myself, core combat should be good, but since it's not in Elder Scrolls the stat system helped add meta depth and strategy where there was little otherwise. It's dumb though. Base hit chances for NPCs and player both should have been a lot higher, more akin to Underworld and other classics...purely to save from those degenerate moments of sitting there for minutes on end swinging away without a hit.

The best thing the sequels ever did was enable simultaneous use of magic alongside melee. That and clamping down on some systems that were open to heavy abuse for better balance, though outright removing said systems (e.g magic crafting or enchantment) rather than doing your job properly in the first place and making them adequately balanced is pure bullshit. The vast majority of everything else gameplay was pure dumbing down, removing the RPG, removing the strategic depth and replacing it with absolutely nothing of value. You're seriously a bit thick if you think Skyrim and Oblivion have better gameplay. But if I recall you also argued Bioshock had better gameplay than System Shock 2, which is basically the epitome of retardation.
Not any single aspect of Skyrim or Oblivion gameplay, be it player agency, challenge, exploration, variety of gameplay elements, strategy, role-playing, cumulative cohesiveness...I guess maybe balance, or imbalance rears its ugly head at some point in MW, which is highly important, but a few abusable systems doesn't trump the rest of everything else being better pal.
 
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Mastermind

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lol @ scrubs
One word: Restraint.

For what purpose?

Talking about restraint when it comes to broken mechanics is no different than "roleplaying" by eating three meals a day. The player has no reason not to break the game, because it isn't a particularly difficult way to break it: you can discover it completely by accident and it takes just a couple of neurons to use it to your advantage, whereas breaking the game in other games takes much more experimentation and knowledge of the mechanics.

What is the purpose of any game? Having fun. What takes away the fun? Breaking the game, considering that every retard I see who breaks it is just complaining later.

wrong, i broke the game every chance i got and i still put 1000+ hours into it

Do you complain about the game being too easy then? Oh and do you play with BTB mod?
Also scrubs, seriously? In a fucking single player RPG game? Lol moron.

shut your faggot mouth. morrowind is already easy even if you don't cheese as long as you understand how the attacks are rolled (IOW "I can't hit anything" retards need not apply) so who gives a shit.
 
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deuxhero

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getting used to the slow skyrim/oblivion speed was one of the worst parts. i dunno wtf you're talking about. in morrowind you can easily get the boots of blinding speed and zoom around the map until you start finding scrolls of windform or enchant shit that lets you fly across the island in a manner of seconds. and this is the kind of stuff that makes it shit all over skyrim and oblivion, even if the combat is terrible and characters whip out giant warhammers out of thin air like a warner brothers cartoon.

Here's something mods fixed in Skyrim but not Oblivion. Apocalypse Magic's longstride (concentrate to move fast at cost of magicka) and Morrowloot's Boots of Blinding Speed (Compared to the MW version they just massively blur your vision while running, can be combined with the previous) both make Skyrim without fast travel much easier to stomach in a natural seeming way.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
i use naruto jutsu to move fast in skyrim (sage mode/lightning armor both double your movement speed). i don't remember what I used in oblivion. Regardless, in morrowind you can move super fast without mods.
 

Iznaliu

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That's like saying that worms are more food than dirt.

That is a pretty crappy metaphor:

Bamboo.jpg
 

Scroo

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Codex 2014 Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Roguey why are you ignoring me I really need to know what mod fixes the level scaling but leaves vanilla mor or less intact :( I put almost 80 hours of my youth into oblivion - unpatched on a ps3 haha. So I now really need to play it again but I cannot stand the lvl scaling.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Roguey why are you ignoring me I really need to know what mod fixes the level scaling but leaves vanilla mor or less intact :( I put almost 80 hours of my youth into oblivion - unpatched on a ps3 haha. So I now really need to play it again but I cannot stand the lvl scaling.

there's only a handful of enemies with unlimited scaling and they're part of the challenge imo, i dunno why people get so butthurt about it
 

Roguey

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I'm not intentionally ignoring anyone, I'm just doing a lot of multitasking and wanted to save this multiple replies post for last.

I used the least-intrusive mod I could find to fix the messed-up level scaling

Which mod was it? Did it work? I want to play oblivion again too but digging through the mods is burning me out before I even start

https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/2272/?

-Animals spawn regardless of level.

-Items appear regardless of level.

-Most named NPCs have static levels.

-No more bandits with Daedric equipment.
NPCs should only have equipment that makes sense for them now.

-Merchants sell everything regardless of level.

-Levelled lists for monsters have been tweaked.
Monsters now spawn at much lower levels, and in some instances spawn at all levels.

-No obsolete items or monsters. Even if you're level 20 you might still encounter stunted scamps.

That's pretty much what it does. I could buy higher level equipment right from the start, encountered a few higher level creatures out in the wild and in interiors (animals, undead, and so on), bandits always stayed in leather armor, and occasionally I'd still run into rats and lower level creatures that died much quicker than enemies that were more or less equal in level.

I find it difficult to differentiate between "scripted" and "systemic", since systemic is still scripted. At what point, the complexity of scripts makes it that it's called systemic is a mystery.

Systemic means "designers don't have to touch everything by hand."

Did POE even have any "systemic" reactivity under his definition? What example of systemic reaction does he mean in a game like BG? Shop prices based on reputation is the only thing that comes to mind, which would mean that BG is barely an RPG at all.

Yes, reputation. And yeah, the stuff they don't have to modify on each individual is the prices on shops (or whether or not you're attacked on sight). :M

Then Morrowind is the least walking-simmy of the more recent TES games. It is the only one of them that has actual gameplay grafted into the overworld exploration through survival mechanics whose value Bethesda forgot about and has only recently started to rediscover (let alone build up on). It is a game that requires resource management and where the overworld encounters are more lethal and harder to flee.

No, the "best" gameplay is exploration as a whole, such as non-linear dungeons featuring diverse gameplay (even frequently platforming and swimming) rather than Skryim's linear loop dungeons designed for the lowest common denominator. It's the survival systems. It's having to actually think and strategize regarding how you're going to build your character like a good RPG generally does, unlike the sequels.

:hmmm:

I didn't powergame my character at all in Morrowind (aside from making a character who would start out with the greatest amount of accuracy) and I didn't notice any of this stuff. I just played naturally and took things as they went. As I mentioned years ago there was only one fight that gave me any trouble.

(also Morrowind's dungeons were totally linear and samey, VD's review brought this up while mentioning how Oblivion's were better even if they still weren't Daggerfall-level)
 

Sigourn

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Do you complain about the game being too easy then? Oh and do you play with BTB mod?
Also scrubs, seriously? In a fucking single player RPG game? Lol moron.

shut your faggot mouth. morrowind is already easy even if you don't cheese as long as you understand how the attacks are rolled (IOW "I can't hit anything" retards need not apply) so who gives a shit.

lol at Morrowind fanboys denying Morrowind is actually a piss easy game.

Morrowind is only "hard" if you try to kill enemies you are not supposed to kill yet (mostly Daedra and Elementals).
 

Ventidius

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Then Morrowind is the least walking-simmy of the more recent TES games. It is the only one of them that has actual gameplay grafted into the overworld exploration through survival mechanics whose value Bethesda forgot about and has only recently started to rediscover (let alone build up on). It is a game that requires resource management and where the overworld encounters are more lethal and harder to flee.


:hmmm:

I didn't powergame my character at all in Morrowind (aside from making a character who would start out with the greatest amount of accuracy) and I didn't notice any of this stuff. I just played naturally and took things as they went. As I mentioned years ago there was only one fight that gave me any trouble.

(also Morrowind's dungeons were totally linear and samey, VD's review brought this up while mentioning how Oblivion's were better even if they still weren't Daggerfall-level)

I wasn't trying to argue that the combat or the dungeons were challenging, but rather that there were actual mechanics to the exploration, which means it is inaccurate to describe the game as a "walking sim", and even if one grants that it isn't, Skyrim and Oblivion are even worse in this regard.

Playing blind with no metagaming you have to mind things like armor durability, non-regenerating health and magicka, the fact that you can't fast travel, etc. That means that at least some thought has to go into the process of traversing the world. That means a lot for a franchise that has had overworld exploration as their de facto selling point since MW.

It might not be much, but the sad fact is that the state of the art in overworld exploration in RPGs has never been very advanced mechanically-speaking. There have been some pioneers like Might and Magic and TES, but this aspect of RPG gameplay is in most cases very barebones compared to, say, dungeon exploration, and turn-based tactical combat.

One way overworld exploration can be made interesting is through survival mechanics: resource and risk management, plus world lethality through both traps and enemies(that need not be powerful individually, but should meaningfully chip away at your resources as a whole). A proper itemization system that allows or emphasizes non-craftable loot can also add another mechanical aspect to said exploration, or at least connect the latter to a systemic element. A lot of these things can also be done with dungeon exploration, and in fact, good dungeon crawlers usually do them well.

Morrowind got many things right from this point of view, but the thing that held back this element of its design was poor balance: you would stop noticing a lot of this stuff by mid-game as you grew more powerful and it became trivial, even without powergaming.

Still, I am cautiously optimistic about the growing interest Bethesda has shown in survival mechanics, as it makes it more likely that their next game will actually add more mechanical layers to exploration rather than remove them, as they have been doing since Oblivion.

Just to be clear, I was, and still am, only addressing overworld exploration in Morrowind( and TES broadly), instead of dungeon exploration. The latter I consider a distinct area and one in which TES games have never been particularly good, especially compared to games that actually specialize on that, such as Wizardry-style crawlers, for example.The reason for that is that I think that the "walking sim" charge often surfaces in discussion of these games due to their being centered on overworld-exploration, while not being particularly notable in other areas, such as combat, and overworld exploration often feels like a very empty mechanic(if one considers it one at all), especially when stripped of the elements mentioned above.
 
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pippin

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I don't think anyone has claimed that Morrowind is hard or tough. It's just that Oblivion is easier.
 

Ventidius

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I don't think anyone has claimed that Morrowind is hard or tough. It's just that Oblivion is easier.

Yeah, that has always been one of the biggest flaws of this franchise, going all the way back to Daggerfall. Thing is, at least Morrowind took advantage of the situation, said "Fuck it", and gave you a shitton of options through the magic system to become hilariously overpowered in zany ways that weren't there in most of the others. That's why I never took seriously the argument that Skyrim removed the spell crafting for balance reasons, given how piss-easy the game already is.

I am all for them going for hardcore survival mechanics in the future, but since Skyrim and Oblivion wasted that opportunity, they might as well have kept all the OP stuff. Heck, it is sad that MW ends up beating them on both the survival front and the OP gamebreaking front.
 
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Mastermind

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I don't think anyone has claimed that Morrowind is hard or tough. It's just that Oblivion is easier.

it's p much impossible for oblivion to be easier due to the scaling. the lack of to hit formulas means enemies automatically land hits on you too, melee and especially archery damage scales poorly (especially at higher levels, since some enemies keep gaining hit points while there is a hard cap on your damage) and magic requires some knowledge of the spellmaking system to be used effectively.

In morrowind it's the same enemies, except they stop growing at level 20 or so when you start running into top tier daedra like golden saints (the hard cap is a lot higher in the expansions tho, where you'll actually run into dangerous enemies if you're not properly cheesed out in good equipment) and IIRC none of them have endless health scaling like oblivion goblins do.
 

Roguey

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One thing I'll give Morrowind is that it doesn't have the intentional escape hatch added in Oblivion and Skyrim that allows you to heal/mana yourself up to full in the inventory while the game is effectively paused. :M
 

Luckmann

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That's like saying that worms are more food than dirt.

That is a pretty crappy metaphor:

http://www.shatterthelookingglass.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Bamboo.jpg
Not at all, because if you're a human being, you'd rather be eating pretty much anything else. That was the point of the metaphor. That something being less shit than something that's more shit doesn't make anything not shit. Your worms are shit. The dirt is shit. Both are shit. Just because you can eat shit doesn't mean that you'd want to.
 

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I don't think anyone has claimed that Morrowind is hard or tough. It's just that Oblivion is easier.

Morrowind is so stupidly easy to break you'd have to go out of your way not to do it. Just off the top of my head, once you get Restoration to 60 or thereabouts, the game is effectively over since you can Fortify your Alchemy or Enchanting Skill to absurd levels for a second or two and make potions/items that just steamroll everything. If you're an archer, you can easily pick up a Daedric bow at level 1 with no cheese involved, only some sneaking and maybe a potion. Et cetera. Oblivion largely tones stuff like that down, although it still has some glaringly obvious ways to trivialize the game like 100% Chameleon. Plus, level scaling in Oblivion means it's entirely possible the game actually gets harder as you grow in levels if you do not level your Skills and Attributes properly, or get powerful Quest reward items at too low of a level and make them almost useless later on. This is, of course, assuming no mods.
 

Iznaliu

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Plus, level scaling in Oblivion means it's entirely possible the game actually gets harder as you grow in levels if you do not level your Skills and Attributes properly, or get powerful Quest reward items at too low of a level and make them almost useless later on

I've never heard of anyone who likes Oblivion's extreme level scaling; I don't want to know what Bethesda's playtesting process was like.
 

Roguey

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Who the hell knows what happened during Oblivion's development. Here's quote from one of the programmers back in 2006:

The leveled creature stuff doesn't have to be "At level 5, you get a level 5 creature." It can be "At level 5, in this particular instance you get a 50% chance of a level 5 goblin, a 40% chance of a level 2 rat, and a 10% chance of a level 10 troll." It can also use offsets from your current level. There can and will be super-easy encounters as well as extremely difficult ones. Some dungeons may start out easy and then get tougher and tougher the further you go -- and it's still all based on your character's current level.

That describes the mod I used, but it doesn't describe Oblivion at all, even after all the patching.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Who the hell knows what happened during Oblivion's development. Here's quote from one of the programmers back in 2006:

The leveled creature stuff doesn't have to be "At level 5, you get a level 5 creature." It can be "At level 5, in this particular instance you get a 50% chance of a level 5 goblin, a 40% chance of a level 2 rat, and a 10% chance of a level 10 troll." It can also use offsets from your current level. There can and will be super-easy encounters as well as extremely difficult ones. Some dungeons may start out easy and then get tougher and tougher the further you go -- and it's still all based on your character's current level.

That describes the mod I used, but it doesn't describe Oblivion at all, even after all the patching.

It does to me and i mostly played it without gameplay changing mods (except the automatic x5 modifier mod for stats on leveling because keeping track of that shit was hideous). it's just that some enemies also have health based on the player's level, and it never stops scaling. so at very high levels you can run into goblin warlords with 1300 health, which is well above an (unenchanted) 27 damage katana can do. even with enchantments you could use those oblivion sigils to add 50 damage, which would be substantial but still require you to hit something 20 times before it died, all while it was wailing on you. on top of that armor broke very easily too, often just one oblivion gate resulted in me having to go back to town and repair all my shit.
 

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