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Has "Roleplaying Videogame Game" become a meaningless nomenclature?

Sigourn

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I was in Leddit discussing what Roguelikes are. One user argued that games like Rogue Legacy or Spelunky are Roguelikes. whereas I argued that "Roguelike", by definition, is a game that plays "like Rogue", meaning turn-based has to be a requirement (else you can pretty much make a lot of different games using the same basic mechanics, and it wouldn't play like Rogue at all). Sooner or later it was going to happen that someone mentioned RPGs and another user said "there was no roleplaying in Rogue".

For this reason, I thought of three questions:

- Has "RPG" become a meaningless nomenclature because "roleplaying" itself is secondary to the genre, thereby grouping games like Wizardry, Fallout, Final Fantasy and The Witcher all in one category?
- How do you "identify" roleplaying games nowadays?
- And lastly, what do YOU think a roleplaying game should be?

I think the problem with the classic "what is an RPG" question is that a lot of users try to retroactively add meaning to games defined as "RPGs", without even questioning if it makes sense they are called RPGs to begin with. We all know what a sports game is, we all know what a racing game is, we all know what a graphical adventure is, and that is because they are either based on real life or based on their representation. But RPGs originated from Dungeons & Dragons, something that simply cannot be translated perfectly onto a videogame, even less so in its early years (PLATO mainframe on the 70s). Meaning there's no easy way to distinguish them.

This is not so much a "what is an RPG" thread, because I firmly believe there is no universal answer: the genre is poorly defined since it is not a "genre" but an umbrella term to define a lot of games that share similar things (whether it be an inventory, level progression, a story set in a fantasy setting, choices you can make that affect the story, among others) but no one connection point that ties them all together (in racing games there HAS to be racing; it doesn't matter if there are many cars to choose or few, it doesn't matter if you can mod your cars and give them new paintjobs, it doesn't matter if it is street racing or clsoed circuit racing, it doesn't matter if there's a story to go along with it or simple track progression, it doesn't matter if it is a "car" or a magical ship you are meant to race; what matters is that you have to be able to beat others to the finishing line).

These are my answers to the question posted above:

1. In RPGs, the issue is that "roleplaying" is that it is very vague: some people think roleplaying is being able to choose your stats, your class, and off you go; there isn't any dialogue choices, but hey, at least your combat skills and available equipment is limited by your class! Others think choice and consequence is everything, but I'd rather say "CHOICE" is everything: choice, by definition, implies consequence. Otherwise it isn't a choice (saying "Go on" and "You still haven't told me where these guys have gone to" isn't a choice if the NPC replies exactly the same).

2. Case by case basis. See what do you do in the game, what features does it have (inventory, stats, dialogue choices, story, among others), decide afterwards.

3. In my opinion roleplaying consists of the game reacting to my character. Roleplaying games require stats. They don't need to be "numbers" because what stats do is limit what your character can do, but these limits are also variable in that these can be changed at the beginning of the game or during the game (in this case, the progression must not be linear or else we kiss goodbye to "character uniqueness"). These limitations come in the form of combat (when there is) and dialogue (when there is). Your character can be hand-made or it can be a set protagonist, it doesn't matter. You must be able to act through the character. Last but not least: character progression is not "you find Sword in the first level, and Sword +5 in the second level". I'm talking about stat progression, what the character itself is able to do or not independently of the challenges thrown at him or other limitations in the way of available equipment.

Wizardry is a roleplaying game because your stats influence how your character fights (no talking that I'm aware of). Fallout is a roleplaying game because your stats influence how your character fights and talks. FINAL FANTASY ISN'T RPGs. You have no choice in how the story develops in Final Fantasy, you have no voice of your own; some games have linear progression and others do not (FFVII's Materia system, X's Sphere Grid, XII's License Board), but at the end of the day you can't act out your character properly since they have no say in any matter that matters. In The Witcher your stats influence in the outcomes of battles and you can choose your dialogue options during quests, as far as I've played.

DEUS EX is a roleplaying game, because even though player skill is significant, there's still character skill in combat/lockpicking/hacking and player choice in dialogue and quests. CALL OF DUTY isn't a roleplaying game, there's no character skill at all (at least in the ones I've played), no character progression (there's "weapon" progression, but this ties in with my earlier comment that "arbitrary progression" of equipment is NOT progression), no dialogue choices to make.



Anyhow, I'm interested to see what people have to say on the matter. I see a lot of shitposts incoming, but hopefully thoughtful discussion as well.
 

octavius

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Personally I'm more concerned about a game's playability and fun, than I am with labels.

Anyway most Computer Role Playing Games don't have much actual role playing. There's no role playing in a game like Baldur's Gate for example (you can't role play an Evil character; the game assumes/rewards you for playing Good), or any of the DOS era CRPGs I can think of.

Fallout 1 and 2 are closest of the CRPGs I've played. You can play a wide variety of characters and the game mostly acknowledges your actions.
Oblivion is actually one of the few CRPGs that let you role play (for some reason called LARPing, even though there is no Live Action involved) any character, but unlike the Fallouts the only consequences is that Guards come after you if stealing and murdering.
Most party based CRPGs is not about actual role playing, but more like being a football coach directing your squad of players/characters.
 
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Sigourn

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Personally I'm more concerned about a game's playability and fun, than I am with labels.

Anyway most Computer Role Playing Games don't have much actual role playing. There's no role playing in a game like Baldur's Gate for example (you can't role play an Evil character; the game assumes/rewards you for playing Good), or any of the DOS era CRPGs I can think of.

Fallout 1 and 2 are closest of the CRPGs I've played. You can play a wide variety of characters and the game mostly acklowledges your actions.
Oblivion is actually one of the few CRPGs that let you role play (for some reason called LARPing, even though there is no Live Action involved) any character, but unlike the Fallouts the only consequences is that Guards come after you if stealing and murdering.
Most party based CRPGs is not about actual role playing, but more like being a football coach directing your squad of players/characters.

Would you agree then "Roleplaying" should be a term meant to be understood as "directly inspired by tabletop roleplaying games mechanics and features" as opposed to "you can roleplay in this game!"?

That way, naturally any D&D inspired videogame is an RPG,
 
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undecaf

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Personally I'm more concerned about a game's playability and fun, than I am with labels.
...
Fallout 1 and 2 are closest of the CRPGs I've played. You can play a wide variety of characters and the game mostly acklowledges your actions.

Same here.

It's sometimes fun to burn time figuring the specifics of these genre labels for a few minutes, but in the end I know what I want from a game and I can appreciate different levels of "roleplaying". Although there are a few general preferential tenets I usually check considering "the more PnP like in both freedom and reactivity, the better".
 

octavius

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Would you agree then "Roleplaying" should be a term meant to be understood as "directly inspired by tabletop roleplaying games mechanics and features" as opposed to "you can roleplay in this game!"?

That way, naturally any D&D inspired videogame is an RPG,

No, because a videogame doesn't have a DM that let you actually role play. A computer is much better at running combats, though.
 
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im pretty much over worrying about labels for video games; im too old for that shit

my top two games arent rpg's by any 'standard definition' but who cares

i come hear for the banter, stay for the butthurt and shitpost until i get tired

not decrying you younguns discussing this by any means you go for it
 

Bohrain

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
For the most part the word RPG in video game context seems to mean "anything that has numerical character progression".
The genre labels make very little sense, the term Real Time Strategy for instance might as well mean anything where you execute strategies in real time.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Would you agree then "Roleplaying" should be a term meant to be understood as "directly inspired by tabletop roleplaying games mechanics and features" as opposed to "you can roleplay in this game!"?

That way, naturally any D&D inspired videogame is an RPG,
Game genres are defined by their mechanics.

Of all those who misinterpret the meaning of RPG, none are worse than the category of people who claim that an RPG is anything with "role-playing" (and not anything lacking "role-playing"). They might as well as say that adventure games are anything where you adventure, or that fighting games and beat-em'-ups are two terms for the same thing, or that shooters and shooting games and shoot-'em-ups are three terms for the same thing. The choice of words used to name a category does not define that category.

An RPG is any game where the mechanics are sufficiently close to RPG mechanics so as to consider it an RPG rather than belonging to another genre. Specifically, RPGs developed from squad-based tactics games, taking combat-related aspects from them, adding character progression and customization to already-existing equipment and inventory, and adding several exploration-related aspects.
 

Sceptic

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Oblivion is actually one of the few CRPGs that let you role play (for some reason called LARPing, even though there is no Live Action involved)
The parallels are easy to see. In pen & paper role-playing you have a DM to arbiter how the role you're playing affects the world and the (N)PCs are you and how their reaction will in turn affect you back. Same with CRPGs like Fallout, Arcanum, Bloodlines, etc, even Daggerfall. In LARPing you put on your robe and wizard hat you want to be a dragon and let your imagination run wild with no limits, except nobody else really cares. Same with Oblivion.

I do agree with you about labels and about oldies, M&M1 had no role-playing to speak of and nobody cares because it's still an awesome CRPG. I think a good CRPG would be one that plays up the strengths of the C part, which is also what I think you implied with your last post.
 

Tigranes

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Another fucking thread about meaning of RPG

Begins with "I was discussing on reddit"

:negative:

OK so the question itself: there are some words we have which are useful precisely because they are so broad, and nobody can give you an exact definition anymore without alienating huge swathes of people who use the word, because the whole point is that lots of different people get to leverage it for different purposes. E.g. culture. RPG is, to a lesser extent, one of those terms, which is why 90% of what is RPG discussions are hell.

If you do want to go back in and enforce a strict definition, it just means coming up with a 'hardcore' definition that will continue to be violated by 90% of people out there, but maybe e.g. somewhere like the Codex has an interest in maintaining it. That's about it.
 

Santander02

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Ah it's been a while since I've seen a "but what is an RPG???" thread in the dex, looking forward to the oncoming multipage crap flinging fest :salute:
 
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For the most part the word RPG in video game context seems to mean "anything that has numerical character progression".
The genre labels make very little sense, the term Real Time Strategy for instance might as well mean anything where you execute strategies in real time.

"Strategy" comes from Greek where it specifically refers to a general commanding troops, so RTS actually makes sense.

RPG doesn't even have to involve numerical character progression nowadays. Pretty sure that if you have an inventory or any kind of weapon improvement, it's an RPG or at least a game with "RPG mechanics".
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Personally I'm more concerned about a game's playability and fun, than I am with labels.

Anyway most Computer Role Playing Games don't have much actual role playing. There's no role playing in a game like Baldur's Gate for example (you can't role play an Evil character; the game assumes/rewards you for playing Good), or any of the DOS era CRPGs I can think of.

Fallout 1 and 2 are closest of the CRPGs I've played. You can play a wide variety of characters and the game mostly acknowledges your actions.
Oblivion is actually one of the few CRPGs that let you role play (for some reason called LARPing, even though there is no Live Action involved) any character, but unlike the Fallouts the only consequences is that Guards come after you if stealing and murdering.
Most party based CRPGs is not about actual role playing, but more like being a football coach directing your squad of players/characters.

Oblivion is actually one of the few CRPGs that let you role play (for some reason called LARPing, even though there is no Live Action involved)
The parallels are easy to see. In pen & paper role-playing you have a DM to arbiter how the role you're playing affects the world and the (N)PCs are you and how their reaction will in turn affect you back. Same with CRPGs like Fallout, Arcanum, Bloodlines, etc, even Daggerfall. In LARPing you put on your robe and wizard hat you want to be a dragon and let your imagination run wild with no limits, except nobody else really cares. Same with Oblivion.

I do agree with you about labels and about oldies, M&M1 had no role-playing to speak of and nobody cares because it's still an awesome CRPG. I think a good CRPG would be one that plays up the strengths of the C part, which is also what I think you implied with your last post.

You imagine that role-playing can only be in existence if the game reacts to your character's personality. That 'alignment' is the only deciding factor in what is or isn't role-playing.

This basic premise is flawed. While 'alignment' is one aspect of role-playing it is not the entire sum of it. That would be like saying one-liners after a kill are the definition of an action movie. It is merely one aspect of role-playing, just another small sub-section of what you're possibly able to do depending on whether that aspect interests the developer.

When you create your character their class represents the role you choosing to play. As in: What's your role in the community? Me? I'm the Butcher. My role in this community is as a Butcher. The butcher might be good or evil or just a normal mixed-up human, but his role is still that of a Butcher, his personality is secondary.

When you decide the Butcher's primary stats you're deciding how his role will function, how he will perform his role, whether you will role-play him as a talkative salesman or as more of a chef or as a dodgy rat-meat smuggler. Primary stats are therefore more important to creating your role than alignment, because any of those three can still be good, evil or whatever while still providing a specific role you are playing.

Even if you completely ignore alignment in your game, your still providing a very detailed and specific role for your character. Quite why you've become so hung up on alignment as the be all and end all of performing a role I have no idea, because alignment has nothing to do with your role beyond adding additional flavour text to your daily activities.

Games like Oblivion are not very good role-playing games because those types of games allow you to be every role all at once, class and attributes don't matter, you can become/are not just a jack of all trades, but god of all trades. And this is why any game which lets you be everything is not role-playing, and this is why games where people can only talk about alignment are not very good role-playing games.

role
rəʊl/
noun
  1. an actor's part in a play, film, etc.
    "Dietrich's role as a wife in war-torn Paris"
    synonyms: part, character; More
    • the function assumed or part played by a person or thing in a particular situation.
      "the equipment will play a vital role in the fight against cancer"
 
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mondblut

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But RPGs originated from Dungeons & Dragons

Here's your answer right here. A computer RPG is a videogame that mimics playing D&D and its derivatives, just like computer chess or monopoly recreate their tabletop origins. The more aspects of D&D it faithfully includes, the better RPG it is. The "roleplaying" buzzword is indeed meaningless.
 

FeelTheRads

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Oblivion is actually one of the few CRPGs that let you role play (for some reason called LARPing, even though there is no Live Action involved)
The parallels are easy to see. In pen & paper role-playing you have a DM to arbiter how the role you're playing affects the world and the (N)PCs are you and how their reaction will in turn affect you back. Same with CRPGs like Fallout, Arcanum, Bloodlines, etc, even Daggerfall. In LARPing you put on your robe and wizard hat you want to be a dragon and let your imagination run wild with no limits, except nobody else really cares. Same with Oblivion.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Roleplaying

That's why it's called LARPing.
People playing pretend.
 

Comte

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Lucas I think its time to stop spurging about RPGS and Fallout New Vegas mods and go outside.
 

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