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Might and Magic Quitting Might and Magic 1

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IncendiaryDevice

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I gave it my best shot, I really did, but there are so many aspects which are user-unfriendly it's physically unbearable. If you enjoy the emotions of frustration and anger every time you play for half an hour, then sure, it will meet your agenda, but if you have any sense of wanting a satisfying gaming session then you might as well find something else to play.

What were the straws that broke the camel's back?

In order of importance:

1) Only being able to save at the inn.

What a fucking misery that is. It completely disjoints gameplay and quickly becomes a task akin to working a factory-line as you repeat the same thing over and over and over again, for no other reason than you want to just save your frigging progress. For the first 5 hours of gameplay it's ok, you're not far from the Inn and travelling back helps you get your bearings, but once you start going out a bit farther, to the far corners of the second map then it just becomes a huge joke, rolling the random luck dice for enemies on the way out and then back again, never knowing if your going to be able to save your progress or if you're going to have to do it all over again, never really knowing why you're putting up with that kind of system in the first place. Found a portal? Wanna try it out? Oh fuck, all the way back to the inn you go, then back to the portal, there goes another 5 minutes of my life.

It might have been 'cool' in 1986, you know, when beggars can't be choosers, and some people might have developed stockholm syndrome from some autistic desire to persevere at all costs with such a system, but, for me, and likely most sane people, it's quite the most retarded design I've ever encountered in a game and goes a long way to reminding me why I didn't bother with these games when they were first released, my original instincts were indeed 100% correct.

2) Random Random Random Random and more and more meaningless Random

The encounters are all random, the loot is all random and the only thing that resembles anything approaching something like an actual game rather than a meaningless number-grinder is the maps themselves. You have all your fun drawing the maps as you reveal them and every now and then encountering something that isn't a random fight or generic shop. Nothing is ever cleared and every step could produce anything from a pointless and rewardless (other than xp) trash fight all the way to an impossible TPK fight. Fuck it, why not just spend all your time walking round the first map until you're level 100, does it even matter? Is the 'plot' even worth unravelling? Who knows, 3 maps in and there's fuck-all plot to keep me even vaguely interested in looking for new maps.

Finally one combat encounter provides you with a loot item that is actually interesting, something that makes the past 2 hours of mindless map-drawing somehow worthwhile, something that increases your AC by one. Enthralled by the excitement one then forgets that the item isn't even yours until you manage to get it back to the inn... which, of course, for that one specific encounter among hundreds there's that TPK party on your way back to the inn... and retracing your steps to retry just gives different enemies and different loot. What a huge waste of time. What a huge waste of soul.

Oh yeah, and loot vanishes the second you move out a square without remembering to click S for search, cos having loot automatically show upon defeating the enemy is just sooo casual, you have to give the player the opportunity to miss loot every now and then from sheer 1% natural human frailty.

3) No feedback whatsoever

Press A to attack. Press S to shoot. Press c, 1, 4, a to use you're one attack spell. Repeat until you or they are dead. Will you make it? Who the fuck knows, you either miss or hit... completely randomly. And for random damage. At enemies for whom you have no idea what their hit-points are. Never knowing either your or their hit-chance or their hit-range. No tactics, no thought, just pull the lever of the one-armed-bandit until either all your swords clunk into a row or until you run out of dimes.

Press c, 1, 2 to increase your team's accuracy... to an unknown improvement point... then watch as you perceive zero alteration in the accuracy of your team members. Watch every party member miss one turn only to have every party member hit the next turn, without ever knowing the percentiles that are providing you with this 'hilarious' gameplay.

4) It's just said some words but they've flicked past in a flash of... 6 points of... Zenon did 3... you come across a... puff of smoke

What little feedback there is, that of knowing what hit point numbers are being removed (as long as you or the enemy wasn't killed), zooms by in a flash of text so quick that a blowfly wouldn't be able to keep up with it.

And its not just the combat text, all the text in the game is just a nano-second flash of text at the bottom your screen. In order to read a one-sentence phrase on a statue you have to click on the statue 5 times just to catch a few words each time until you've gradually pieced together all the flashes into one coherent whole. Who knows what crucial and non-crucial text has been flying past me throughout the game. But then again, by this point, who the fuck cares.

5) Darkness

Now, I don't mind the concept of darkness. Its a cool concept which was forewarned in the manual. There will be sections of some maps which will require you to navigate them in complete darkness. Cool, I'll look forward to that at some highly advanced point in the game when the challenges need to be raised to figure out some intricate puzzle with a high reward factor.

Oops, nope. It stuffs darkness at you right from the start, whether its a part of anything interesting or not. Just sprayed about almost randomly for no other reason than to slow your progress down to a crawl. Large empty rooms that serve no purpose and have zero reward and fuck all puzzle element, just a big room of darkness, cos it's so much fun looking at a black screen for 10 minutes. I mean, christ, even text adventures have more to look at/imagine while playing.

I could go on, but if I go on any further with even more points then people will misunderstand the relevance-factor of each point, I'll be lectured on my un-hardcoreness because I don't like avalanches that disappear if you simply leave and re-enter an area, and that replying to this kind of point somehow negates the relevance of the more important points previously stressed.


But apparently M&M 3 is the one where they implemented a save anywhere feature and, since save at the inn counts for about 80% of the tedious misery of this game (from which most other points tendril out from), there's a good chance that I might actually grow to like the other game quirks.

So is it true, is M&M 3 the one where this series turns into a 'proper game'? With a save anywhere feature and everything?
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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So is it true, is M&M 3 the one where this series turns into a 'proper game'? With a save anywhere feature and everything?
Apart from point #1 (Which imo is awesome and makes exploration meaningful), all your criticism is somewhat dealt with in M&M2. You should at least give it a try.

Thanks.

Regarding "meaningful", your point is 'meaningless' without elaboration. In what possible way is it meaningful to explore half a dungeon without saving (cos your so hardcore) only to be met with a random TPK party which does nothing other than force you to re-map what you've already mapped?
 

octavius

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I was about to write "MM1: the game that separates men from casuals. :smug:", but then I recalled I used a DOSBox version with Save States for this particular game.
1. is a valid complaint since in the beginning you will face enemies you can neither defeat nor run from. But once you have the Fly spell you can always flee safely from combat IIRC.

Anyway MM1 is definitely not baby's first blobber. If you are new to blobbers Wiz 1 is an easier and better introduction to them.
 

Snorkack

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So is it true, is M&M 3 the one where this series turns into a 'proper game'? With a save anywhere feature and everything?
Apart from point #1 (Which imo is awesome and makes exploration meaningful), all your criticism is somewhat dealt with in M&M2. You should at least give it a try.

Thanks.

Regarding "meaningful", your point is 'meaningless' without elaboration. In what possible way is it meaningful to explore half a dungeon without saving (cos your so hardcore) only to be met with a random TPK party which does nothing other than force you to re-map what you've already mapped?
If you could save everywhere, you lose a party member - you reload. But in M&M, you have to make considerations like this: "Okay, my robber just died. But everyone else is fine and I know I'm close to the McGuffin I need from this Dungeon. Can I afford to push further and fight one or two more battles without the robber, risking the loss of all my progress? Or should I backtrack to the temple and revive him but then having to work my way back to where I currently am?" In my book, that really adds to the gameplay.

So what are the improvements with M&M 2?
Better itemization, better graphics, better controls. A world that feels like a world rather than a maze. A way more forgiving start. You can disable random encounters and get on par with the fixed ones by gaining a few levels in the arena first.
 

Snorkack

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Also, the SNES version of M&M2 has:

-Eagle Eye (read: minimap) that doesn't expire over time
-Always visible dungeons, no need to cast light/use torches
-HP of monsters are always displayed
-Spell books with the name of the spells instead of just numbers

That seems to tackle some more of the issues you have with the game.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Thanks for that you two, sounds like 2 might have made some useful changes, I'll give it a whirl, but don't be too surprised if I jump to 3, though it does sound like the devs actually listened to criticism and tried to make saving less of a grind.

If you could save everywhere, you lose a party member - you reload. But in M&M, you have to make considerations like this: "Okay, my robber just died. But everyone else is fine and I know I'm close to the McGuffin I need from this Dungeon. Can I afford to push further and fight one or two more battles without the robber, risking the loss of all my progress? Or should I backtrack to the temple and revive him but then having to work my way back to where I currently am?" In my book, that really adds to the gameplay.

I have no idea how you could make any assessment about the worth of travelling anywhere or attempting to push on for one more square at any point for any reason baring in mind anything can spawn anywhere at any threat level, regardless of if you had 6 well armed and refreshed party members or were just left with 1 with no food. In this regard you seem incapable of joined-up thinking and are just applying general RPG culture to a format that has nothing to do with regular RPG culture, completely ignoring the mechanics which make this mindset utterly redundant.
 

Snorkack

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Thanks for that you two, sounds like 2 might have made some useful changes, I'll give it a whirl, but don't be too surprised if I jump to 3, though it does sound like the devs actually listened to criticism and tried to make saving less of a grind.

If you could save everywhere, you lose a party member - you reload. But in M&M, you have to make considerations like this: "Okay, my robber just died. But everyone else is fine and I know I'm close to the McGuffin I need from this Dungeon. Can I afford to push further and fight one or two more battles without the robber, risking the loss of all my progress? Or should I backtrack to the temple and revive him but then having to work my way back to where I currently am?" In my book, that really adds to the gameplay.

I have no idea how you could make any assessment about the worth of travelling anywhere or attempting to push on for one more square at any point for any reason baring in mind anything can spawn anywhere at any threat level, regardless of if you had 6 well armed and refreshed party members or were just left with 1 with no food. In this regard you seem incapable of joined-up thinking and are just applying general RPG culture to a format that has nothing to do with regular RPG culture, completely ignoring the mechanics which make this mindset utterly redundant.
I'd be thankful if you could rephrase the last paragraph because I have a hard time understanding your point. But considering what you criticised about MM1 in your first post, I am not sure whether you are in a position to lecture me about the mechanics & mindset of this RPG 'format'.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Thanks for that you two, sounds like 2 might have made some useful changes, I'll give it a whirl, but don't be too surprised if I jump to 3, though it does sound like the devs actually listened to criticism and tried to make saving less of a grind.

If you could save everywhere, you lose a party member - you reload. But in M&M, you have to make considerations like this: "Okay, my robber just died. But everyone else is fine and I know I'm close to the McGuffin I need from this Dungeon. Can I afford to push further and fight one or two more battles without the robber, risking the loss of all my progress? Or should I backtrack to the temple and revive him but then having to work my way back to where I currently am?" In my book, that really adds to the gameplay.

I have no idea how you could make any assessment about the worth of travelling anywhere or attempting to push on for one more square at any point for any reason baring in mind anything can spawn anywhere at any threat level, regardless of if you had 6 well armed and refreshed party members or were just left with 1 with no food. In this regard you seem incapable of joined-up thinking and are just applying general RPG culture to a format that has nothing to do with regular RPG culture, completely ignoring the mechanics which make this mindset utterly redundant.
I'd be thankful if you could rephrase the last paragraph because I have a hard time understanding your point. But considering what you criticised about MM1 in your first post, I am not sure whether you are in a position to lecture me about the mechanics & mindset of this RPG 'format'.

I'm not lecturing you, I'm stating your point about assessing the risk of moving forward is entirely redundant in M&M1 because it doesn't matter how resourced or full your party is, either you get a TPK attack or you don't, it doesn't matter if one of your team is dead or not, & for all you know that dead guy might have been irrelevant anyway depending on the criteria of the square you entered into. You're talking about making rational assessments on the probability of your chance to progress when the game is so random-riddled that any form of assessment is impossible, it's all just luck. You could waddle along for 2 whole maps lengths of dungeon with one party member on 1 hit point and not meet anything or you could be TPK'ed in the next square with a fully rested maximum party. What are you struggling to grasp here?

who told you to play m&m1?

I need to be told to play a game?
you basically made a thread to tell people that some ancient game is ancient so i was wondering why you played it in the first place.
but don't mind me, discuss away.

Are you retarded?
 

Reapa

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Thanks for that you two, sounds like 2 might have made some useful changes, I'll give it a whirl, but don't be too surprised if I jump to 3, though it does sound like the devs actually listened to criticism and tried to make saving less of a grind.

If you could save everywhere, you lose a party member - you reload. But in M&M, you have to make considerations like this: "Okay, my robber just died. But everyone else is fine and I know I'm close to the McGuffin I need from this Dungeon. Can I afford to push further and fight one or two more battles without the robber, risking the loss of all my progress? Or should I backtrack to the temple and revive him but then having to work my way back to where I currently am?" In my book, that really adds to the gameplay.

I have no idea how you could make any assessment about the worth of travelling anywhere or attempting to push on for one more square at any point for any reason baring in mind anything can spawn anywhere at any threat level, regardless of if you had 6 well armed and refreshed party members or were just left with 1 with no food. In this regard you seem incapable of joined-up thinking and are just applying general RPG culture to a format that has nothing to do with regular RPG culture, completely ignoring the mechanics which make this mindset utterly redundant.
I'd be thankful if you could rephrase the last paragraph because I have a hard time understanding your point. But considering what you criticised about MM1 in your first post, I am not sure whether you are in a position to lecture me about the mechanics & mindset of this RPG 'format'.

I'm not lecturing you, I'm stating your point about assessing the risk of moving forward is entirely redundant in M&M1 because it doesn't matter how resourced or full your party is, either you get a TPK attack or you don't, it doesn't matter if one of your team is dead or not, & for all you know that dead guy might have been irrelevant anyway depending on the criteria of the square you entered into. You're talking about making rational assessments on the probability of your chance to progress when the game is so random-riddled that any form of assessment is impossible, it's all just luck. You could waddle along for 2 whole maps lengths of dungeon with one party member on 1 hit point and not meet anything or you could be TPK'ed in the next square with a fully rested maximum party. What are you struggling to grasp here?

who told you to play m&m1?

I need to be told to play a game?
you basically made a thread to tell people that some ancient game is ancient so i was wondering why you played it in the first place.
but don't mind me, discuss away.

Are you retarded?
possibly
 

Snorkack

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I'm not lecturing you, I'm stating your point about assessing the risk of moving forward is entirely redundant in M&M1 because it doesn't matter how resourced or full your party is, either you get a TPK attack or you don't, it doesn't matter if one of your team is dead or not, & for all you know that dead guy might have been irrelevant anyway depending on the criteria of the square you entered into. You're talking about making rational assessments on the probability of your chance to progress when the game is so random-riddled that any form of assessment is impossible, it's all just luck. You could waddle along for 2 whole maps lengths of dungeon with one party member on 1 hit point and not meet anything or you could be TPK'ed in the next square with a fully rested maximum party. What are you struggling to grasp here?
Yeah okay got it. Thing is - TPK isn't a constant threat anymore once you got one or two levelups on your guys and everyone equipped with basic weapons and armor. Even less so in M&M2 where there are only fixed encounters that only reset on entering a map.
 
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IIRC most M&M1 encounters were similarly fixed and reset on map change. Sure if you were mapping out a place you got tons of randoms, but if you already knew the surroundings and just needed to get from point A to point B, it was a few scripted encounters at choke points and maybe one random.

Also just fly around and teleport and shit. Once you've mapped what squares have scripted encounters you usually just jump past them and go on your merry way.

M&M1 (and 2... and even some of the later games, to a lesser extent) does have a very difficult early game though if you don't use the pregenerated party with powergamed stats.
 

pippin

Guest
There's a setting to make the automapping uncover itself as you travel, which is nice. It's actually a neat little tool and when used properly it's not really cheating.
 

Dux

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So is it true, is M&M 3 the one where this series turns into a 'proper game'? With a save anywhere feature and everything?

What in the flying fuck? M&M is not a proper game? It's arguably the best game in the entire series. The saving in inns restriction isn't that problematic if you just take it step by step and don't overextend yourself. Explore, gain XP, go back and save; then plan your next expedition. Sure you might be screwed over by RNG a few times but it's still perfectly within reason. I've had times where I've accomplished something important, only to get destroyed on my way back to town. That's just how it is. It's harsh but it adds tension and combats complacency. Complacency is one word that I would describe some of the later M&M games, especially MM7 and onward. It's way too easy to do things. In M&M you really have to think things through and even then you can get immolated by some random demon on the wayside.

The Where Are We? tool helps a lot as well in order to make the game more scrutable.
 

Fowyr

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For the first 5 hours of gameplay it's ok, you're not far from the Inn and travelling back helps you get your bearings, but once you start going out a bit farther, to the far corners of the second map then it just becomes a huge joke, rolling the random luck dice for enemies on the way out and then back again, never knowing if your going to be able to save your progress or if you're going to have to do it all over again, never really knowing why you're putting up with that kind of system in the first place.
Fly spell is your best friend.


What little feedback there is, that of knowing what hit point numbers are being removed (as long as you or the enemy wasn't killed), zooms by in a flash of text so quick that a blowfly wouldn't be able to keep up with it.
Oh, man. Increase cycles. It was pretty slow and readable on the 286.
And its not just the combat text, all the text in the game is just a nano-second flash of text at the bottom your screen. In order to read a one-sentence phrase on a statue you have to click on the statue 5 times just to catch a few words each time until you've gradually pieced together all the flashes into one coherent whole. Who knows what crucial and non-crucial text has been flying past me throughout the game. But then again, by this point, who the fuck cares.
See above. :lol:


Everything else is just :dead:
M&M1 is one of the best games in the series.
 

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