Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Sentinel]

Nah it isn't, it's good game design in a class-based RPG that helps differentiate classes. If you want garbage like "lol anyone can do anything!!!" just go play classless shit.

Arbitrarily assigning elements to different classes is a waste of time; you are implying a false dichotomy between strong class-based systems and classless systems.

How is it a waste of time? It helps define the class. Isn't that what you want to have in a class based system? Classes that are different from one another in ways that aren't just their name? D&D has been doing it for 20 years, I don't know why it's suddenly a problem now.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Nah it isn't, it's good game design in a class-based RPG that helps differentiate classes. If you want garbage like "lol anyone can do anything!!!" just go play classless shit.

Arbitrarily assigning elements to different classes is a waste of time; you are implying a false dichotomy between strong class-based systems and classless systems.

How is it a waste of time? It helps define the class. Isn't that what you want to have in a class based system? Classes that are different from one another in ways that aren't just their name? D&D has been doing it for 20 years, I don't know why it's suddenly a problem now.

Right because 1000+ class combinations aren't enough and we need to additionally differentiate classes with weapons.

 

[KateMicucci]

Classes are indistinct because there are too many of them. Having multiple classes that are basically the same thing like fighter/barbarian. Multiclassing is going to make it worse.

Weapon limitations on classes has always been stupid though. Gandalf fought with a sword and you're gonna say my wizard can't even hold one?

 

[Background Character]

just go play classless shit

Wish I could

 

[AwesomeButton]

It's when you have 2+ debuffs on you do you start feeling it. This is exacerbated by the terrible UI which doesn't tell you anything, you have to manually mouse over each person on your team to monitor their debuffs and sometimes the duration of their buffs.

I think this is in one part the result of them being unable to faithfully copy/approximate the personal initiative round from the IE games, and instead relying on animation speed for everything - effects durations, reload speed, action speed, casting speed, etc. This was forced on them by time constraints and the technology they were using. And the other part - Josh didn't think many players would care that much about how the systems work, and indeed not that many players cared.

For those who cared though, the result was that very soon into the game it became impossible for a human being to calculate the effect of all the afflictions affecting each character during combat, and to know when to pause the game next in order to cast the next thing so that it chains most effectively with the thing that's currently affecting someone. A system where your base unit is the 1/10th of a second is not meant to be used by humans. In the IE games you have both more time to react, and fewer status effects in power at any given time in an average battle, and a party that requires very little management. Again, the IE games feel like they did it just right, and PoE feels overengineered. But in fact it's not over-, but underengineered.

Out with the mushiness, please!

Also, I'm having a hard time imagining an arrow doing slash damage. Yes, I know it's not a simulationist system. But still!

Some Hungarian arrowheads from 10th century:

Spoiler

Your point being? Which of those "slashes" its target?

Slashing usually implies whipping motion, not just some capacity for cutting though? Then again, arguing realism in a D&D inspired game is a waste of time anyway.

Also, I'm having a hard time imagining an arrow doing slash damage. Yes, I know it's not a simulationist system. But still!

This "freedom" only contributes to the smearing of class identity. Classes should be locked to a set of weapons that they can use. Either entirely locked into those weapons, or they get a bonus to attack rolls with those weapons but can still use other shit.

I also think there should be weapon proficiencies enforced by the game, not just role-played by players. But Josh is of the opinion that this would prevent people from roleplaying their wizard with a two handed sword which they always wanted but no game allowed them to have.

Classes being locked into a few weapon types a la the IE games has its downsides, in particular that it becomes a nightmare to distribute loot equally around the game so that every class archetype gets something good by a certain point in the game. If you don't do that, then automatically playing one class becomes more beneficial to playing another class, and you suddenly have builds that are obviously much better than other builds, and this is for metagaming reasons. Josh's whole philosophy goes out the window.

Aren't the current weapon proficiencies more satisfactory though, than what we had in PoE? You spend a resource to specialize into a weapon, and from then on, you chose it.

 

[Rivmusique]

Old stuff about weapon proficiency:

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Quillon]

If promising more than one god wasn't shooting yourself in the foot, this would have been more compelling.

 

[Background Character]

I thought you couldn't? I mean the bonuses didn't stack or did they?

 

[Infinitron]

I thought you couldn't? I mean the bonuses didn't stack or did they?

You could and they do. Of course it's not a wise thing to do...

 

[Quillon]

What bonuses? Wasn't it just helping with the falling?

 

[Infinitron]

What bonuses? Wasn't it just helping with the falling?

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Council_of_Stars

 

[Prime Junta]

What bonuses? Wasn't it just helping with the falling?

Ohoho no, there was a lot more to it than that. And if you welched it would change the endgame consequences, and now presumably P2.

 

[Quillon]

Owe shit, I thought the boon was just the helping spirits :D If the bonuses carry over, I'll only have might & athletics but no vengeful gods... maybe Ondra tho; I remember she was pissed after WMP2. And given everywhere's sea in Deadfire, Ondra can potentially have the biggest impact.

 

[Lacrymas]

They always give you the boon of spirits, they give you an additional boon if you promise to do what they want. You can promise to everyone and get every boon or promise to no-one (like I did at first, then empowered Woedica on the behest of Skaen). It's cool they are implementing consequences for that. You could promise stuff to Wael and Skaen, too, but I don't know if something bad happens if you don't keep your promise.

I think this is in one part the result of them being unable to faithfully copy/approximate the personal initiative round from the IE games, and instead relying on animation speed for everything - effects durations, reload speed, action speed, casting speed, etc. This was forced on them by time constraints and the technology they were using. And the other part - Josh didn't think many players would care that much about how the systems work, and indeed not that many players cared.

For those who cared though, the result was that very soon into the game it became impossible for a human being to calculate the effect of all the afflictions affecting each character during combat, and to know when to pause the game next in order to cast the next thing so that it chains most effectively with the thing that's currently affecting someone. A system where your base unit is the 1/10th of a second is not meant to be used by humans. In the IE games you have both more time to react, and fewer status effects in power at any given time in an average battle, and a party that requires very little management. Again, the IE games feel like they did it just right, and PoE feels overengineered. But in fact it's not over-, but underengineered.

Exactly. It's not only the impossibility to monitor debuffs as well, it was the entire distribution of combat through time that made it a clusterfuck. Let me quote myself -

The biggest problem, however, is the way the combat is distributed across time due to the way recovery works. Since there are no rounds the individual actions of the units are chaotic, unpredictable and uncontrolled, recovery being the only metric with which they are measured, but that is up to the player, creating the need to overwhelm you with enemies on PotD, especially those that like to spam stuns like Caen Gwlas and its sister banshees or adragans with their storms, with the intent to try and control how much stuff you do per unit of time. It's also why it's so frontloaded, the enemies can't really keep up with your movements and actions after a certain point, so the more things they activate at the start the better and "harder" the encounters seem, hence the advice to "CC the Broodmothers quickly". Bulking up their defenses is also a cheap way to try to protract the fight (good thing they don't do it very often), making two priests very advantageous for quickly buffing up accuracy to get through it and rolling out immunities to the afflictions, hence the "don't stack them" "advice".

The best part of the combat in PoE is around 3rd to 6-7th level, where you have abilities to play with, but don't really have access to the OP stuff, so recovery doesn't really matter that much, both for you and for the enemies. It's kind of a simplistic run-down and many more factors are at play as to why the combat is so unpleasant from one point onward, but recovery is one of, if not THE, major ones. This is also one reason why Haste and Improved Haste are so overpowered in the IE games, they allow you to execute more actions per unit of time than normal (which is 1 spell per 6 seconds or the very controlled and predictable ApR of the melees), but the encounters are balanced without them in mind because it's not clear if the player will always have access to Haste or not, making them OP if used.

I'm not into arguing, but I'm wondering why specializing into something penalizes your character, if I'm reading things correctly.
So if you specialize in slashing weapons, why do you no longer wield piercing or blunt weapons as effectively as you did before you specialized? Is that what he's saying or am I making a clusterfuck of things?

Only Devoted Fighters get penalties for not using their specialized weapon.

Re: Class differentiation - like I said, the classes generally play like each other, I don't think the possibility to use any weapon is the cause or it's that much of a problem. You can choose to equip your Wizard with a staff or wand and be as stereotypically wizardly as possible. The way the class (and not only it) is set up you don't really gain all that much by using a two-handed sword, you CAN, but why would you? I remember my first playthrough of PoE I wanted a Cleric-like Priest, so I equipped heavy armor and a two-handed weapon, you have no idea how pointless and weak it was. The fact that you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.

 

[Background Character]

I need to replay this STAT and promise everything to everyone

I'm losing my summer house there in the sequel so it doesn't matter

 

[FreeKaner]

Your point being? Which of those "slashes" its target?

My point being, while it's not "slashing" in the semantic sense, some arrowheads can be considered to do differing damage types. I.E; a narrow, needle like arrow doing more piercing, thus being better against plated/mail armours while an arrow with a broad head is better against clothing or naked flesh. Which is how they have been used historically also, narrow heads against armour and wide heads against cloth.

 

[Delterius]

Animancers from the Republics have harnessed soul energy and memory to produce arrowheads which self identify as flying swords.

Hire me Obsidian.

 

[Sentinel]

just go play classless shit

Wish I could

Divinity Original Sin just came out.

 

[Sentinel]

Aren't the current weapon proficiencies more satisfactory though, than what we had in PoE? You spend a resource to specialize into a weapon, and from then on, you chose it.

We'll see how it works. Can't be much worse than PoE1 though. I'll be happy if it's anything like D&D3/5e.

 

[Sannom]

Aren't those just flat bonuses to damage or accuracy? You won't like those in Deadfire then.

 

[Sentinel]

5e only gives you accuracy with that weapon group. It's the same system as PoE1, but thankfully 5E isn't built on top of a d100 system, so it's somewhat easy to notice when you get bonuses to rolls, as opposed to PoE. +6 is fucking nothing.

 

[Parabalus]

+6 ACC is more than what you get for picking up a +1 enchanted weapon in BG/3.5.

 

[Sentinel]

I never mentioned BG.

nice edit
I also never mentioned weapon enchants. And +6 in a d100 system is fucking nothing unless you're min maxing for POTD.

 

[Parabalus]

I never mentioned BG.

nice edit
I also never mentioned weapon enchants. And +6 in a d100 system is fucking nothing unless you're min maxing for POTD.

Both BG and 3.5 have d20 rolls to hit, you're just trolling.

It's not about the source, point was +6 in PoE is more valuable than +1 in those systems (6% vs 5%), ppl just see 6/100 and go full retard like you.