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Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

mushaden

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Wizardry 7:
I'm beating my head against the wall in the lower crypt with all the teleporters (I'm guessing the last dungeon). Trying to wrap this up with minimal spoilers, but is there anything I needed to go to the sky city for? I totally missed the ladder in the dragon cave.

Also is there any rhyme or reason to the map kit red/green squares that appear on (some but not all!) teleport spots?
 

Darth Roxor

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Wizardry 7:
I'm beating my head against the wall in the lower crypt with all the teleporters (I'm guessing the last dungeon).

It's really terrible, yes.

Trying to wrap this up with minimal spoilers, but is there anything I needed to go to the sky city for? I totally missed the ladder in the dragon cave.

ho boy, welcome to hell :mixedemotions:
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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I am more than happy to be associated with one of the pinnacles of manhood that hail from the Codex. I can say without any hint of irony or sarcasm that Roqua is probably the most important Codexer to ever post as his legendary exchange with Bryce would eventually lead to the shaping of the entire Codexian Culture and, if you enjoy modern Codex, you can in large part thank Roqua.

I can't think of any Codexian incident that brings me more joy and a wider smile to my face than Roqua's PM to Bryce and in fact I would go so far as to say that remembering that amazing event in Codex History has saved me from suicide many-a-time as it immediately reminds me that a world in which Roqua PM'd Bryce and Bryce responded... is a world that is worth living in.

I know you didn't mean this as an insult and I love you too and all, but this is the most insulting thing anyone has ever said to me. Have you seen the retarded kids who literally hate rpgs that make up the overwhelming majority of this site? To say I am directly responsible for this is crazy and very hurtful. I was a champion and defender of rpgs then as I am now, and these fucking console retards and brainless kids happened while I was gone for a decade. I literally left in protest of these types of people swarming to the site then.

At one point I was able to make jokes and have a good time and try and be witty. Now I just respond to child retards after child retards. Endless hordes of them. I can't even kind of try and be funny when 99% of the people won't get it, and witticisms are just a huge waste of thinking. This site needs a purge before any thinking person that likes rpgs and not console shit for kids can actually post on this site in peace.
 

Grampy_Bone

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Wizardry 7:
I'm beating my head against the wall in the lower crypt with all the teleporters (I'm guessing the last dungeon).

IDK why but I quite enjoyed that part. After all the banal puzzles and lame dungeons elsewhere in the game (funhouse, Dane tower) I found the multi-floor teleporter maze challenging yet rewarding to solve. It was the only dungeon in the whole game where I actually had to use the map, rather than just run around 'following the left wall' like normal.
 
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aweigh

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Well... last year the "Codex" did legitimately vote Witcher 3 as the best RPG and ranked it #1, above all the other RPGs, including ones like the Shadowrun titles and the like. Not trying to infer SR's superior RPG mechanics over something so monocled as Twitcher 3, obviously, but it does seem to support your theory Roqua.

It may be the forum is inside a Vault. A Vault where a deadly experiment that tested the quantumn sparks between our moral hearts and loving minds; a Vault where what can be construed to be bereft of carbon and zeal and what some others simply call that which is stupid, ignorant and full of bad taste and an linger waft of cunty laziness: a Vault where such a thing as that, entropy and purity became one and in the Year of Our Lord a voice rang out from where there is can never be any color:

"Hark ye angels of the deep... lest we sink into the warmth of depravity"
491.jpg


2002 - 2017

Harbinger of all that adheres to nothing, a god of his own undoing. Yes... yes... the are rumors...
 

mushaden

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Fak this Sky City... invisible walks and one way gates suck ass. I tossed out my credits cards a while back and all the bitches I'm encountering are broke.
 
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aweigh

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mushaden

why not play Wiz 5 instead? If the wireframe graphics are the issue then I recommend playing the ps1 port (polygonal textures for dungeon graphics, 1:1 port of the scenario with no changes done to any aspect of it), or alternativel you are the kind (like me) who enjoys 2D Sprite Art done at its best go for the SNES port of Wiz 1-3 + 5 which is beautiful series of ports that feature the best ever 2D graphics of any kind in the context of art, style and in updating the enemy designs (nothing is changed, not one single enemy's appearance or anything) by redrawing them from scratch with high-quality gorgeous 2D Sprite work that is the best looking it can be given SNES tech.

Alternatively if you want to play a wiz scenario that is 100% new to you, (although I already know you've never played Wiz 1-5, same as 95% of the posers posting on this thread who absolutely nothing about what they are discussing here because they have never played Wizardry) then I recommend Wiz Gaiden 4 snes rom, with eng. language patch done by fellow codexers Helly and MrRichard999.

Wiz gaiden 4 is simply put Wiz 5 but with all of the best features from Wiz 6: Wiz 6 races all implemented correctly + Wiz 6 ability to dual-wield weapons + Wiz 6's sometimes useful per-weapon-based ability to do a melee attack in multiple ways (fast but innacurate, slow but accurate, in-between, etc) + Wiz 6's spell school additions of alchemy and Psionics.

I am not exaggerating nor lying, when it comes to Wizardry I speak only the truth and I do it not with zeal but with passion because I truly believe that If I can be able to somehow manage to express/convey the brilliance of real (SORRY!) I mean "classic" Wizardry design and then invite people to discover the japanese-developed Wizardry titles such as Wiz Gaiden 4 that are more Wizardry than even Wizardry classic itself (!), let alone the Bradley scenarios, by informing them that even if they still can't get past the wireframe graphics, and that even if they still protest about not wanting to play un-monocled "remakes" (LOL they aren't, they're more faithful to Wiz than Sirotek in the love and passion put into the snes/ps1 ports)...

...then I can continue onwards by attempting to inform them that they still have more options available, such as the SNES wiz gaiden 4 example which is the best possible marriage of:

- Classic Wiz design (think Wiz 5 more than any of the others)

- Combined EXPERTLY with the races, spell schools and combat engine improvements from wiz 6 (dual wielding yay!)

- AND to put the cherry on top a heavier emphasis on what I call Bradley-style puzzles than Wiz 5 (let alone Wiz 1-3).

If still the person doesn't want to play these brilliant games then I can only say respectfully that to each their own...

...and promise myself that I will be more passionate, and will improve my skills in conveying the genius of the "lost Wizardries" until I can share the joy with each new person who discvers these gems and realizes how fun they are!

Obviously Wiz Empire 2 (PC version) (also translated by helly/ricahrd) is another recommendation if you don't want to go for the Wiz 1-5 ports on snes/PS1.

Wiz Empire 2 remains to this day the best designed Wiz scenario ever made and I doubt it will ever be topped, and you can feel free to take my word for it believe me when I say that I have played each Wiz title and Wiz-related title to the point of autism so great it might break the spectrum.

Wiz Empire 2 is like Gaiden 4 in that it also utilizes Bradley's best ideas from Wiz 6 and seamlessly implements them into the superior Wiz 5 formula/blueprint.

Once you play these Wizardry titles and realize how much better they are than Wiz 6, 7 and 8 due to the fact that they retain classic Wiz PLUS expertly and organically feature the best additions to Wiz from 6, 7 and 8 you'll wonder how one could have previously thought Wizardry was "better off" when it got casualized.

Ok time to go take my meds.
 

mushaden

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Thanks for the recommendations aweigh. You're correct, I haven't played real wizardry (just 8, 7 to where I am, and just a bit of 6). I think I'm going to be burned out on wizardry if and when I finish 7 (which I'm enjoying for the most part despite the griping). There are other rpgs from the codex top 50/70 that I want to play next.

My main problem with wizardry is the mapping. I know that makes me a pussy and whatnot, but I can't get past it. Stopped playing 6 because of that and I was even using grid cartographer. I don't know if that changes your recommendations, but I hope to revisit wizardry soon. Empire 2 sounds good
 

Major Seven

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Maybe you should try Elminage Gothic. It's kind a "classic" Wizardry on steroids and good in almost every way.

I heard from the game because of aweigh praising it in the EG thread, and he was absolutly right!
So... maybe more people should listen to this guy ;-)
 
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aweigh

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Well, some pople legitimately don't enjoy the mapping aspects. Nothing really to be said about this, as personal taste is personal taste. To be blunt, though, "real" Wizardry's (one of the) core fundamental protocols was just that: to make an electronic computer RPG which they wanted to make it so that it was the closest possible imitation/reproduction/transplantation of the devs' love: dungeons and dragons.

perhaps whether due to tech limits or due to the Wizardry dev team's own personal motivations (likes/dislikes, what-have-you), they put all of their brain power, effort, artistry and mathematical knowledge and their accumulated experience in desining systems (both of the lone two Wiz 1 devs were "computer programmer geeks" except they were the real deal, both of them excelled in math and science and they loved "mapping challenges"); regardless of why when they made Wiz 1 their intention was to transplant D&D as closely as possible... but they decided to focus specifically on the aspects of D&D which revolved around dungeon exploration/mapping and secondly but equally importantly on D&D's (2nd edition at that time)'s char-advancement and class and party and racial development and progression designs.

this means that there is a very, very real reason Wiz 1-5 didn't have an auto-map, regardless of whether the "tech" even existed then or not, still they would not have put it in:

- The Wiz 1 first-release pressings came with a small but thick pad of dozens of graph paper pages and a standard #2 pencil.
- Yes, in every single Wiz 1 box (DOS version at least, don't know about the original Apple II release).

Sooo I think you're catching on now on what type of dungeon exploration experience they wanted, and by god did they achieve it and to PERFECTION. But... as with most things, some don't like that, and some do. Neither opinion is valid or invalid.

Wiz 6 (DOS version) didn't come iwth auto-mapping but ONLY because Bradley didn't have enough time to implement it as he's sadi he would've. Wiz 7 (and 8 obviously, which, btw, you should also go play as Wiz 8 is one of the best RPGs ever made) features a mapping system though it's tied to a skill/items, and Wiz 8 simply has auto mapping as default.

For what it's worth, though, Both of the Wizardry scenarios I mentioned above as two beautiful representatives to act as the "face" of non-Western Wiz games both feature auto-mapping.

So if your worrry is you'll have to bust out paper and pencil, worry not and the good news keeps coming for you because:

- SNES ports of Wiz 1-3 + 5 have automapping by default.
- SNES port of Wiz 6 (features the same GORGEOUS 2D sprite work too, though a different dev team did the Wiz 6 port than the team that did the Wiz 1-3 + 5 ports on SNES) also has auto mapping (which, as I mentioned, DOS version of W6 does not)

- and lastly PS1 ports of Wiz 1-5 have optional auto mapping. can be turned off/on (snes' versions always enabled).

So at the very least I can give you a personal guarantee you will never be forced to "map some shit" in those, unleess for some reason you decide to play the classic Wiz scenarios (i.e. Wiz 1-5) on DOS instead of snes/ps1 for whatever fucking reason, then yes, you will be mapping!

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it every time somebody even thinks that the ps1 ports are "consolized" in way: no, they are not, and that is incorrect! the PS1 Wiz scenarios 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5's only changes are the textured dungeon graphics and also the soundtracks.

SNES versions of Wiz 1,2, 3 and 5 (W4 can only be played in "modern graphics" on the ps1 port, otherwise only other way is original dos/apple ii version) change some things a tiny bit more most significantly the scenarios 1-3 allow Thieves to hide in combat, yet it was only in Wiz 5 and onwards that Thieves gained this ability to hide in combat.

But guess what? The options menu allows disabling that and playing with unchanged Thief. :)
 
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aweigh

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Oh, and Wiz gaiden 4 not only has a mini-map automatically auto mapping all the time but it's even displayed all the time in upper right corner as a small square. Empire 2 (PC)'s auto-mapping is limited to amount of map-items you have with you, which is more than fair.

Wiz ports on PS1's automapping is like gaiden 4, ecept you need to access it by the camp menu and it acn be enabled/disabled.

on the SNES ports however the "auto map" is tied to the DUMAPIC spell so careful or you will "run out".
 

Grampy_Bone

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I've never understood mapping by hand. I mean, it's a simulation--the game doesn't expect you to swing a sword for your characters, why does it expect you to draw their map for them?

In the D&D games I ran I always drew out a mini-map for the players on the corner of the battle mat. Just easier for everyone that way. I've played in old-school games where the DM verbally describes each room's dimensions and the players laboriously draw it out, and it sucks. Takes forever, never turns out right, and is just a waste of time.

The other issue is that movement in PnP takes zero game time. The characters just say "we go to the room with the fountain" and poof, assuming no encounters, they are there. Something all cRPGs seem to neglect. That's why I like the auto-move function in games like Strange of Sword City.
 
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aweigh

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Grampy_Bone

i didn't understand it either back in the day, and not only that back in the day (i.e. LESS THAN 3 YEARS AGO...); almost my entire gaming life I always thought dungeon crawlers were not "real RPGs", and additionally I also didn't understand the appeal of a game where the most prominent aspects of appeal were (what I assumed in ignorance to be) non-stop "grinding" while being forced to map by hand.

i didn't get it then.

Now I won't say it is something universally appealling and I have argued about this previously and my conclusion then and now as well is the following:

- (In dungeon crawling context) Mapping by hand is a fun experience that will reward the player by transforming their initial forays into the unknown into both a CRPG gaming experience and into actively discovering how the floor they are mapping is designed, architected and how and why it is was implemented and why it is the floor number it is instead of being another floor:

a) Mapping "by hand" (I include using software into this as well, since it doesn't really matter if its paper or a spreadsheet) is proven to immensely promote the spatial awareness of the player and, in the same way that writing something down while listening to it will promote better memory capture and in the same way that when studying a text-book writing your own "version" of what you're reading in the material will also highly enhance memory receptiveness.

(i.e. when you map a dungeon "by hand" you will always remember the maze layout; and to this day ask any hard core Wiz/crawler fan about mapping and 9/10 times the phrase "...eventually I could do the dungeon blindfolded!" will come into play).

b) It's "fun". It's fun because it leaves behind a physical artifact that is born completely out of the game playing experience you had with the game and the maps themsevles, specifically hand-drawn ones, become mementos you will want to keep and (again) ask any crawler fanatic about their maps and you will soon be linked to a photos of their meticulous (or sometimes incredibly sloppy but beautiful in its madness) maps from the crawlers they played.


However I think the "by hand" mapping should neve,r ever be implemented in any crawler with the intention of forcing the player to map the entire game. Yes, classic Wiz (the DOS/Apple II versions) were like this and many other crawlers of the time as well, but modern crawler developers learned something very important:

- Mapping can get old and real fucking fast can it get old.

a) A good "modern" crawler should ideally heavily motivate the player to map the initial dungeon(s) or areas, maybe by hand or in the case of 3DS by using the stylus on the thing's second screen (ingenius idea, btw).

b) But in order to avoid the extremely taxing and honestly eventually TEDIOUS task of mapping every single fucking little thing: the crawler should eventually (around floors 2 or 3) begin to provide access to the player for alternative ways to "auto-map" their dungeon crawling experience be it through:

1a) The provision of items that function as insta-maps which display everything explored up to that point by the player (or all of it, whatever, but that's for easy mode).

2b) A healthy amount of early access to spells, or spell-like objects/items, or (this example is from Wiz Gaiden 4): have a switch hidden somewhere that if the player manages to find it and hits it then boom, instantly the floor the player is on will/should reveal itself completely and fill in the game's auto-map, or if the game doesn't have one then something that amounts to that.

3c) Simple solution then: all methods combined.

- Elminage: Gothic sells you from the start "Magic Maps" which are 1 time use items which when used bring up the map screen displaying covered ground and leaving the rest of the floor in shadow with faint lines/shapes somewhat visible so you know roughly how much is "left" to go.

- E:G, like classic Wizardry (and so many other clones) also provides an additional option with the spell "DUMAPIC" or its equivalent which will function exactly the same as that "magic map" item I described. The point, though, is that this type of spell is always placed in a spell "tier" (spell schools feature tiers numbered usually 1-10 or so, with spells in tiers of a higher number being more powerful); the map spell should always be a beginning tier, 1 or 2 for example, but should make sure that the tier it is in features SUPER USEFUL SPELLS which cure, heal, antidote or sleep enemies/crowd control, etc: the POINT being to make it so that the player has to weigh the pros and cons of whether or not he should spend MP on casting the mapping spell or whether he should instead tough it out, perhaps map by hand maybe instead, and save those MP in case he needs to use the healing/restorative/crowd controlling spell(s) that are also in the same "tier".

Additionally even one could even throw in the Wiz Gaiden 4 (and all later Gaiden games)' "innovation" of each floor always having secret switch (usually hard to get to!) which will eliminate all mapping needs when found and used by the player.

IMO the perfect way is all 4 methods. However the single biggest reason to map by hand is the most simple one and the first one I mentioned: when you do it that way you will memorize the maze layouts so well that you will never need later on to waste ANYTHING be it map items, map spells or find any dumb switch to traverse those areas that you have mapped by hand... why? because you both remember the layouts very well and don't need any reminder anymore due to the fact that you mapped it by hand and additionally it means you have the floor layout in "hard copy", so to speak, accessible at any time by you, the player / human being.

There is a Codex thread dedicated exclusively to show off the maps done by hand by crawler fans and it's an GREAT thread. Some people here really made each hand-drawn map a fucking piece of art.

-

EDIT: Obviously as the player's party grows in level and power their access to resources like map-spells or access to map-items will increase, meaning that while it maybe have been fun to hand-map the first dungeon or the first two dungeons, by dungeon 3 (usually) the party will have more than enough resources to never need draw anything by hand again as they will be able to "afford" as many map "castings" or map items as they could possibly need or want to use.

The notion that Wizardry and its ilk somehow "forces" the players to map every single dungeon forever and without reprieve is true only in the case of scenarios 1-6, and obviously, only in the case of the DOS/Apple II/NEC PC-98 releases.

Actually if I remember right there was a re-release of Wiz 6 about 8 months after the DOS release of the game which added "mouse support" (something completely unnecessary in a tile-based RPG where movement and dungeon/area/game play is designed is aligned to a grid) and additionally they also added in auto-mapping to the DOS version but this may possibly not even be true as it's simply something I remember reading whiile googling Bradley interviews in order to fuel my hate.
 
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My main memory of Wiz5 is pushing too far into an unknown floor, realizing I have no idea where I am anymore, having someone die to something unexpected and losing my shit so mapping is cool. With automap you hit the button and go back to the castle.

It also helps if you use the true genius level mapping tool, mspaint instead of graphing paper or excel.
 
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aweigh

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Lady Error

Comments like that would be fine if you were just another regular poster, but you're a smartie. You can do better than that! <3

It would make me VERY happy if you told us why it is a combat simulator, etc. I would love to read a different viewpoint than mine about this but nobody but me bothers to even attempt at explaining why I this is like this because of that when they did then, blah blah.

I single you out here because I think you are intelligent enough to write a very detailed post dissecting wiz, and by necessity the sub-genre of crawlers, and give me and the others reading much reason to think and reconsider their views on Wiz and the like.

I believe in you <(' '<)

EDIT: Obviously Wiz = Elminage. They are interchangable. OMG I ADMITTED IT!!! Haha. But I know exactly why they're not and exactly they ARE... do you? Does anyone else? We need more examination of whether or not these games are bad, good, or neither!

I'll try to get you started with a hint/devil advocacy:

"I say they're combat simulators because Wiz 1 was conceived as exactly that, and I am not utilizing hyperbole. Wizardry, before it even was named that, was literally a combat tech demo made for fun and it was after his (Andrew's) friends all loved playing it did the notion of building a "game" around the combat materialize".

There you go, now make me proud.
 

Lady_Error

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I'm not writing papers on that topic and seriously, your posts would be much more readable too if you trimmed them down to your main points.

As to Elminage, it's simple: I got bored by it and didn't continue. I liked the character system and the combat is not bad either, but it's the same problem as Legend of Grimrock 1: all you can do is fight. At least Grimrock also had more puzzles, but I got bored by that one too.

Basically, a good blobber needs to be more like Might & Magic, Wizardry 6-8 or Grimoire. Only combat and an occasional puzzle gets old pretty fast.
 
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aweigh

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GREAT POST! I would in the future avoid assumptions regarding what is "needed". I try to stick as best I can to what I do not like, why I do not like it, and the why/how.

Would you indulge me and tell me what differentiates Wiz 6 from Wiz 5? I'm very curious about this specifically since many posters in this thread prefer 6-8 over 1-5, yet nobody has ever bothered explaining why.

(Please note that explaining "why" is not equivalent to "because I like it more"... explaining why requires at least a brief explenation of the how of it).

I ask this again of you because, IMO, 5 and 6 are very similar. In fact, Wiz 5 has more puzzles altogether than Wiz 6, and supposedly some people like those things, I hear. (Feeble attempt at humor there).

"Only combat and an ocassional puz---", the very same can be said about Wiz 6! You see now why I am curious? That sentence you used to summarize your complaint applies perfectly to the very same games you like! Oh my.

And of cours,e goes without saying that "graphics" and "music" are out of the equation as they have nothing to do with the quality of these two games, in this specific context (i.e. why is 6 > 5, and why is 5 > 6, etc).

...go!
 

Grauken

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W6 massively moves the slider from totally abstract to almost recognizable physical level structures, while still having level design that is as gamey as W1-5, which made it feel more real (for certain defs of real) while still fun in terms of mazes, its graphics and plot development is tonally consistent and creates an unbeaten atmosphere of decay and gothic horror that even W7 couldn't match, exploration is rewarding with an incredibly tight world design that leads again and again back to the initial starting point, and it feels just dense full of secrets to find and things to do, puzzles for the most time are fun and make sense and feel like a natural fit to the world of W6 and are much less opaque than in W7
 

Lady_Error

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Would you indulge me and tell me what differentiates Wiz 6 from Wiz 5? I'm very curious about this specifically since many posters in this thread prefer 6-8 over 1-5, yet nobody has ever bothered explaining why.

Maybe I'll like Wizardry 5, I haven't played it due to the wireframe graphics. When I have time, I'll check out the Super Famicom version.
 

Major Seven

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Lady Error said:
I disagree. It's a combat simulator with huge dungeon floors and little else.

I don't know, what you expected. Do you even like Wizardry 1-5?

If you like
  • a complex, rewarding character system (the best I've seen in Wiz titles)
  • hundreds of different enemies (which require different tactics/skills)
  • good Loot
  • the best dungeons I've seen in the last 20 years
then you'll love Elminage Gothic, simple as that.

edit: I know, it's not for everybody, but we're talking Wizardry, aren't we?
 

Major Seven

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Lady Error said:
Maybe I'll like Wizardry 5, I haven't played it due to the wireframe graphics. When I have time, I'll check out the Super Famicom version.
Try it! You'll have a blast if your only issues are the graphics :)
 

Sigourn

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I think if you remove manual mapping from dungeon crawlers, you are missing on a lot of the experience. Especially because it renders the most complex levels an absolute cakewalk when you have an all-powerful automapping feature that basically prevents you from getting lost.
 
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aweigh

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My earlier thoughts on how the various jap-Wizardry titles and jap-Wizardry clones have expounded upon classic Wiz's way of handling the concept of "auto maps" pretty much sum it all up.

Items which serve as as a DUMAPIC spell, except when utilized (or when a DUMAPIC is cast) instead of getting coordinates you are shown an automatic map of your progress.

It is very, very important that everyone know that only DOS/Apple II original versions of the first 5 Wiz scenarios give coordinates! Wiz 6 (via a re-released "special edition" of the game few weeks before Wiz 7 landed) was the first Wizardry to feature an actual AUTOMATIC MAPPING feature:

i.e. when this feature activates it displayed a graphical representation of the floor currently being explored with already-explored areas/tiles shown in color and unexplored areas left without color or shape.

Remember that Wiz 1-5 all came out before even the fucking mid-80's. In any case, all future Wiz-clones and all (well, probably most) games belonging to this sub-genre feature some sort of auto-map system. It is probably the single most important feature for a dungeon crawler released post 1990.

To keep this brief: items like a magic map (high priced and/or low price but extremely rare or limited in qty, etc, etc), the DUMAPIC EQUIVALENT spell of some sort that when cast will reveal an automatic map of progress (placed within a spell "tier" that has no room for error as in the other spells are all healing ones or otherwise extremely useful, so as to make it worth weighing the risks of casting the SPELL WHICH AUTO MAPS or instead casting something else from that "tier"); ...and lastly the thing the Wizardry Gaidens have been doing for years that has yet to be copied by other 'crawlers which is to hide a switch/etc inside every dungeon which, if found by the player, rewards with a map (usually unlimited, obviously) of the entire place/area/floor or just of the floor, whatever.

Then there is the 4th option which is an auto-map NOT TIED TO THE GAME MECHANICS; a simple auto map feature accessible at any time by pressing a hotkey and it has no bearing on resources or anything like that, instead it is simply pure convenience for the player. Games with this usually feature the OPTION TO DISABLE IT, although not all do. (StarCrawlers doesn't, as a recent example).

I mean, what more ways does a crawler need to implement a system which auto maps? The first 3 implementions listed all tie directly into the gaming systems, so the point of this post is to say:

- I disagree with the notion that the implementation of an auto map system, apparently of any sort (you did not specify), would somehow "break" the enjoyment of a dungeon crawler. I disagree because we've already talked about the various ways it can be implemented and have it actually enhance the dungeon crawling experience.

Lastly to adress your statement that the usage of any auto map (again, you didn't specify details) automatically reduces all dungeons to "cake walks".

- I disagree completely with that assumption because if you were to play any well made dungeon crawler with an auto map feature that is tied tightly within its game play mechanics, i.e. all crawlers since 1990, you would realize that the true challenge of a maze/floor/area is not dependant upon an automatic mapping chart but on the ingenuity and interconnectedness of the the maze design.

LONG STORY SHORT there are no auto map features in any of the good 'crawlers (re: Wiz/Wiz-clones) I've played that reveal everything. The devs are not dumb. They know what they're doing. Chutes, invisible walls, never-ending trick hallways, rotating floors, 1-way doors, 1-way slides or conveyers, hazardous tiles/areas which box the party, ETC, ETC; and last but not least... the good old FIXED ENCOUNTER design.

These things, and all the dozen other shit I forgot about, they will always be part of the maze challenge regardless of whether or not there is a map that is automatic.

EDIT: Oh! Can't forget about navigational puzzles like a floor that has only one route, and some of the ones I've played with floors like this sometimes like ot put bombs on the walls and/or simply drop a dark zone blanket over parts of the floor. Would the auto map somehow reduce this to a cake walk?

And yeah, I pick one of the most laziest examples, as unfortunately majority of people here think Wiz-clones are comprised entirely of these things, with players running into a dark zone every 2 steps and falling through a hole every 3 steps or some dumb shit. Even the one or two Wiz-clones I've played with that dark zone + bomb wall shenanigans they kept it to one isolated floor/area and in both cases they made sure to not place any fixed encounters.

Also, dude, an auto map reveals only what you've explored so far, it doesn't tell you squat about what is left to do/find/explore nor does it label everything in advance or even after finding anything. I can't remember a single auto map besides the one in ETRIAN ODYSSEY games that do that, that label everything automatically, and we know that EO series is for casual players (still worth playing but it's like a kids version of these games).

I still firlmy keep to my opinion that the main and most beneficial aspect of drawing-by-hand a map of a dungeon is the fact that after doing so it will always be in your memory banks, and you'll remember every twist and hall and door for years to come.

I could still right now navigate the first 3 floors of Wiz 3: Legacy of Llylgamyn blindfolded and with 1 hand without turning wrongly not even once; why? because of having drawn them by hand.

However floors 4-6 of Wiz 3... nope, I don't remember them whatsoever. Why? Because by then my party had enough DUMAPIC castings to last me the length of any expedition so I stopped doing the map drawings.

I think that is how it should be, because it represents the same type of power progression for the human player as for the game characters. The human player now no longer has need to draw the floors.

(BTW, Wiz 3's 6th floor doesn't allow any casting of DUMAPIC so that one needs to be drawn by hand anyways! Heh. It goes to show that they were thinking about all of this shit and did that on purpose).
 

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