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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

badler

Obsidian Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jun 3, 2014
Messages
127
Most game developers I know (myself included) have a much better grasp on Eurocentric concepts than just about anything else. It isn't even close, really. Asking them to spend hundreds of hours researching Aztec and conquistador culture/civilization is probably a hard sell.
you make it sound like run-of-the-mill fantasy settings are grounded in houndreds of hours spent on researching medieval times. i even highly doubt that the average game developer ever takes an actual history book in hand.

No, but there is a lot of ingrained knowledge from consuming media with those settings. Because those settings are so widespread, there isn't much explanation needed for developers or consumers. You can argue whether that is good or bad, but it works as a default for the genre.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen
Besides that editor having problems on the latest patch, I'm a bit biffed that when I ask you to direct me to a mod that allows me full control over companions including and most importantly class selection you say "here you go" and link to a mod that doesn't do that
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
Well, either nobody cares enough to make one or it's impossible. Take your pick.
 

badler

Obsidian Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jun 3, 2014
Messages
127
Surely that's wrong. When taking upon an unknown setting you should be allowed to take more liberties and get away with less research, because players are just as Eurocentric as the developers, so 99% of them won't notice any mistakes anyway.

Of course. We could just treat it as window dressing, but it comes off as inauthentic and weak. At that point you might as well just make another generic fantasy setting with a twist. I feel if you are going to take something real world and tell people you are bringing them that experience, you owe it to them to do the proper amount of research and care.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
I was just unaware that that mod wasn't capable of changing classes. At the end of the day, I very much doubt they'll allow you to change companion classes, you can try to pester them about it, though.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
But you can have a Fighter 1/Cipher 19 Eder. Multiclassing is unrestricted after the first level.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
"B..but that restricts my first class, I can't make Eder into a Chanter/Wizard, while also looking into those blue eyes and strong arms!"
 

Sentinel

Arcane
Joined
Nov 18, 2015
Messages
6,633
Location
Ommadawn
Here's a SAwyerpost from last week that I missed: https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...d=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=6#post476301237

Anyway, for a belated "real" response to what we're doing with rogues, we're emphasizing their mobility/invisibility tricks much more. Instead of choosing between Crippling and Blinding Strike at 1st level, rogues pick between Crippling Strike and Escape. Escape grants a large (but brief) Deflection boost after activation and upgrades into other abilities that turn the rogue invisible (Shadowing Beyond), allow the next attack to paralyze (Shadow Step), and other goodies. Backstab is much more potent and can be triggered in combat from invisibility. A high level rogue can repeatedly Escape around the battlefield, gaining brief spikes of huge Deflection while turning invisible and/or gaining the Swift (+5 Dex) inspiration.

All of the offensive abilities are still present, as are abilities like Coordinated Positioning and Smoke Cloud, but I think the emphasis on hopping around and cloaking is the biggest change.
Have they discussed the changes to the combat log anywhere? I'd like to be able to filter by target and source of attack at the very least.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
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Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen
The point is, Lacrymas, that it's a really easy change, since you already have hireling functionality. The reason it's not included, I assume, is because writers/designers don't want to give that control over to the player.

There's two reasons I think this makes no sense:

1) Beyond everything else, what I love about RPGs is character customization. Having to choose between freedom to play with the system that the designers spent so much time working on (hirelings) or narrative content (NPCs) seems arbitrary to me, since:

2) The only functional difference between allowing me to control companion builds and playing with hirelings is that hirelings don't have narrative content. I would like to enjoy both parts of this great content the designers made, but I can't, and the reason is that someone is afraid I might not be able to handle playing with a version of Aloth who's a Cipher instead of Mage mechanically.

It's easy to implement and hurts no one. I don't get why Sawyer of all people is lagging behind Larian here - after all, he's the biggest proponent of gamism in a Lead Designer seat currently. For christ sakes, this is the man who defended Might Wizards, yet I can't play in this sandbox system he made out of fear I'll lose something narratively if Aloth has 18 Might? Why then provide the alternative of hirelings foregoing narrative content altogether?

It doesn't make sense.

But you can have a Fighter 1/Cipher 19 Eder. Multiclassing is unrestricted after the first level.

You're missing the point. I don't have to live with the ball n' chain of a fighter level with hirelings. This also prevents me from some other multiclass combination I'd like to try out, since Fighter is always locked in.

"B..but that restricts my first class, I can't make Eder into a Chanter/Wizard, while also looking into those blue eyes and strong arms!"

Isn't it odd to care so much about how some random dude from across the world likes to play his game? Don't much care how you play yours
 
Last edited:

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
You can't change hireling classes, only their stats, so it might not be possible to change the class due to some limitation in code somewhere. D:OS2 doesn't have classes, everything is in one big clump, so it's not a problem at all. Changing the stats of narrative companions comes down to choice at the end and they chose narrative consistency over player freedom in this case. Which I think is the better choice, even if that meant I had to play with 9 DEX Durance throughout the whole game.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
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Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen
You can't change hireling classes, only their stats, so it might not be possible to change the class due to some limitation in code somewhere. D:OS2 doesn't have classes, everything is in one big clump, so it's not a problem at all.

If I got the answer "not technically possible" I would doubt the veracity of that statement but nevertheless accept it. I seriously doubt that's the case, though.
 

Sentinel

Arcane
Joined
Nov 18, 2015
Messages
6,633
Location
Ommadawn
The point is, Lacrymas, that it's a really easy change, since you already have hireling functionality. The reason it's not included, I assume, is because writers/designers don't want to give that control over to the player.

There's two reasons I think this makes no sense:

1) Beyond everything else, what I love about RPGs is character customization. Having to choose between freedom to play with the system that the designers spent so much time working on (hirelings) or narrative content seems arbitrary to me, since:

2) The only functional difference between allowing me to control companion builds and playing with hirelings is that hirelings don't have narrative content. I would like to enjoy both parts of this great content the designers made, so I can't, and the reason is that someone is afraid I might not be able to handle playing with a version of Aloth who's a Cipher instead of Mage mechanically.

It's easy to implement and hurts no one. I don't get why Sawyer of all people is lagging behind Larian of all studios here - after all, he's the biggest proponent of gamism in a Lead Designer seat currently. For christ sakes, this is the man who defended Might Wizards, yet I can't play in this sandbox system he made out of fear I'll lose something narratively if Aloth has 18 Might? Why then provide the alternative of hirelings foregoing narrative content altogether?

It doesn't make sense.
It actually might hurt a bit since dialogues and checks in the scripted interactions are based on your companion's pre-determined class and all that entails in terms of background. If they know Aloth is at least a level 1 Wizard, they can have him cast "fan of flames to thaw the ice". Although as I type this, I have to wonder how this is gonna work with multiclassing. I imagine the scripted interactions are 100% scripted, so how do they know what spells each companion has? Will they only have checks for level 1 spells and abilities, or will they have 0 possibilities of using spells in those scenarios?
 

Sentinel

Arcane
Joined
Nov 18, 2015
Messages
6,633
Location
Ommadawn
I feel like the DivOS system hurts the companions a bit because they stop feeling like inhabitants of the world and become your mud pawns. I agree with Sawyer that stats should reflect who the people are in the world tbh.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
The process is the other way around, they script something and give the option to Fan of Flames the ice, whether or not you have Fan of Flames is irrelevant in that context. If you have it you can cast it, if not you can't.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I imagine the scripted interactions are 100% scripted, so how do they know what spells each companion has? Will they only have checks for level 1 spells and abilities, or will they have 0 possibilities of using spells in those scenarios?

This makes no sense, they have to add checks for your PC and he can be anything
 

Sentinel

Arcane
Joined
Nov 18, 2015
Messages
6,633
Location
Ommadawn
The process is the other way around, they script something and give the option to Fan of Flames the ice, whether or not you have Fan of Flames is irrelevant in that context. If you have it you can cast it, if not you can't.
That is true.
fuck
:backawayslowly:
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen
Reminds me of an anecdote btw: when I visited Logic Artists while they were working on Conquistador, there were a lot of debates about game balance and they said they were considering implementing an "Expert" screen under difficulty options with sliders for literally every variable in the combat to allow veteran players to customize their experience exactly how they wanted to. I quickly said "I can understand why you wouldn't do that without consideration, sounds like a huge ordeal to implement."

Surprisingly they told me no, it would take one dude working one hour and they already had most of the interface working for their own playtesters. Baffled I asked why they didn't do it, and they told me:

"It's sort of looked down upon among developers, leaving that kind of choice to the player. You're supposed to present them a complete package and allowing player control over everything is viewed as a cop-out even if you actually balance set difficulty modes on top of that. The assumption is that players don't know what they like."

"But that makes no sense - it's hidden behind an "Experts" tab, i.e. it's for players who know the game and know what they want," I said.

"Yeah, but it's an issue of control, i.e.: "What if players play my game in a way I didn't intend?""

IMO goes against the whole idea of play. Fortunately Logic Artists actually ended up including a lot of those sliders.

EDIT: It's actually similar to a lot of statements made by Blizzard when they made Star Craft II (talking about the problems in Brood War of players finding strategies that the designers didn't intend) and RIOT when they changed balancing strategies for League.
 

The Bishop

Cipher
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
359
Besides that editor having problems on the latest patch, I'm a bit biffed that when I ask you to direct me to a mod that allows me full control over companions including and most importantly class selection you say "here you go" and link to a mod that doesn't do that
I believe IE mod adds console commands that allow full respec including change of class. Didn't try it myself though.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen
Besides that editor having problems on the latest patch, I'm a bit biffed that when I ask you to direct me to a mod that allows me full control over companions including and most importantly class selection you say "here you go" and link to a mod that doesn't do that
I believe IE mod adds console commands that allow full respec including change of class. Didn't try it myself though.

That functionality of IE mod unfortunately a) never worked fully and b) has conflicts on the latest patch AFAIK.

I researched the topic in depth and toyed with a bunch of console settings as well. I really, really enjoy both the narrative content of companions and making a custom party, so if have anything remotely similar to such options in games I'll always use them.
 

Sentinel

Arcane
Joined
Nov 18, 2015
Messages
6,633
Location
Ommadawn
It's actually similar to a lot of statements made by Blizzard when they made Star Craft II (talking about the problems in Brood War of players finding strategies that the designers didn't intend) and RIOT when they changed balancing strategies for League.
This doesn't have much to do with RPGs but this mindset of devs designing a game with a set of strategies in mind and then releasing it and nerfing things that weren't intended is a big cancer. CS, Quake, Dota, ET and TF2 are all huge on letting players have freedom and they're much better for it imo.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
PoE is pretty much the only game in which I've actively wanted to make a custom party because I hated the companions, lol.
 

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