Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lacrymas]

At least I have something to say with my masturbatory soliloquies, an actual opinion which isn't based on knee-jerk reactions. The fact that you don't "like" them is irrelevant.

 

[aweigh]

if Lacrymas is going to be making games i highly doubt he'll have any time whatsoever to talk to people about anything, anything at all; his only conversations will revolve around whatever current task they have delegated to him and his mind and spirit will be wholly occupied with doing a good job.

people underestimate how malleable a societal condition can be throught a persons span of life.

i'm sure Lacrymas doesn't care about my 2c on this specific thing but I hear all the rage nowadays is grabbing some piece of shit commie software like unity 3d or torque or heck, i dang even seen boys doodling polygons on top of other games.

instead of a portfolio show them a proof of concept or the closet approximation of that utilizing whatever software or whatever video game you have learnt to mod extensively, at least that's what all the cool kids in the lunch room say you should do.

with luck you'll get hired and get sent to a corner to make some sort of unimaginably repetitive task that is reserved for the unwashed contracted, i.e. not for real employees.

something perhaps like doing through reams of code from one of the programmers who for some reason wants you to edit all of his comments on all 60 thousand lines of code, or perhaps if you're of the queerly sort and know h ow to put paper to nail polish you might receive an executive order to go and paint all 2,700 cobblestones in one of the games maps a different color because the daughter of one of the heads of the game's marketing dept. is studying to be an artist and she says they have to be the coloer she picked out.

bah, who am i kidding? that's all baloney! you'll be fine, friend. you'll get hried and probably the only thing will be the blowjob to seal the interview but that's industry standard, so remember it's just good manners not to skin it with ur teeth.

 

[Colour Spray]

I don't think you can argue against nostalgia bait without discussing how the ideology behind making games has significantly shifted. Like, the idea that games for intellectual players should be above pandering to the very people who serve as the game's main demographic. You get well meaning people deciding that pin-ups or idealized warriors aren't necessary components for an effective fantasy game. If anything, they are too clever for their own good, because you wouldn't opt into an unappealing fantasy.

In some respects I agree that the genre isn't rounded enough. I have some vague memories of playing the Cthulu d20 game when I was a kid and I think a modern day rpg where instead of classes you pick professions that inform your character's skill-set would make for a strongly evocative setting. On the other hand, you can't expect a good fantasy game from cynics who don't appreciate the fantasy genre. My problem isn't that I've seen too much of goblins. It's that goblins are never anything but some mook or comical character that does the race no justice. The cynic has reduced the concept of an entire race of characters into their function. They're a trash mob. What happened to goblins who have strangely sharp swords and cobbled together but functional looking armour? Suddenly the idea of venturing into a goblin warren has some ominous portent attached to it. Why is the only purpose of a dragon the desire to slay it? Shouldn't a rare and mythical creature be treated with a little more gravity than that?

The Elf no longer represents the timeless beauty of nature but in subverting the trope, the very opposite has become the common-place. Weird looking, because elegance is hard. Perhaps barbaric in nature or down-trodden and forlorn, far removed from the dignity of a race that spans the ages.

To this day I wonder why I can never create a wizard who looks the image of the character the word wizard evokes. The closest I've ever seen in post 3d-era videogames is Warcraft 3's Archmage and that isn't even an rpg. Behind me there's a chorus of people saying, it's silly, and, I've seen it before. And there's a developer saying, well, you see. It's clipping and what have you; it's really hard to do a good long beard. And, in any case, very few people choose to play an old character. I figure I'm one of the exceptions that would enjoy a genuine effort.

 

[aweigh]

wizards do not have to conform to your sexy arcane gaze Colour Spray! the only fault here lies on you for perpetuating harmful and conditioned behavior.

 

[Lacrymas]

Re: goblins - Tolkien himself struggled with the whole "race of evil beings" thing with the orcs. It raises many questions, the least of which is how a species wholly consumed by the desire to destroy can function and I don't think he ever got his answers. Why you can't create an ancient, shriveled wizard is because they don't fit into a lot standard fantasy adventures, they are usually relegated to dispense wise counsel or, in the case of Tolkien, provide magic when the drama requires it. Durance was such a character, though, an older spellcaster who was on a personal quest for answers.

 

[aweigh]

i hate to be thaaat guyeee you know but eeeeveryone knoooows that all those "other races" were Tolkien code for "negroes" mmmhmmm.

 

[Sentinel]

that's quite a philosophical rumination, TheSentinel . In a way, and excuse me for perhaps acting out of turn here... you're saying that PoE is intrinsically tied to the atavistic yolk that we commonly refer to as our soul, our spirit, our essence, our grace.

It is neither an observation of entropy but neither is PoE able to be said to be existing either... I also find very interesting how you posit int he beginning of your impactful conclusion here how you also believe PoE is not only "more than a game", but rather so far beyond such matters that it is (as most of us Codexers long suspected) an almost Taoist non-message of the nature that governs the lack of all nature.

It was made, as you say, with shockingly graceful ambitions that are simultaenously driven into immutability because, as you rightfully point out: in PoE's creation we can now be sure that the grace of enlightenment guided those developers hands and swayed the blades of grass within their heart of hearts into bending, but never breaking.

After all, if it the great Lao Tzu said that without stillness there can be no motion, then we can also say:

"Without PoE, there is no being".

Lovely post TheSentinel, very thoughtful. The way you lay out the simple fact that PoE's creation is far above the trivialities of morality, goodness, badness, and that it is there only when we observe but it is also there when we do not... You truly have a way with words my friend.

thnx

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

To this day I wonder why I can never create a wizard who looks the image of the character the word wizard evokes.

Because romance cutscenes would look like grandpa porn.

 

[Prime Junta]

negroes

Nah, Turks/Mongols. Sallow, bow-legged, squint-eyed, wielding scimitars, rolling in from the East in unstoppable hordes...

(You're thinking of the Haradrim.)

(And who does a reclusive, inward-turned people exiled from their ancient homeland and obsessed with gold remind you of?)

 

[aweigh]

koreans.

 

[Iznaliu]

But then again, what is the reason? :/

You have to pitch ideas to executives who only see dollar signs.

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

But then again, what is the reason? :/

You have to pitch ideas to executives who only see dollar signs.

So you also think that these underutilised settings aren't financially viable? You don't think there'd be a market for an RPG set in some kind of Ancient Egypt or Mesoamerica for example? Maybe not in the AAA market, but what about a niche product with a AA or A budget? You don't think that among RPG players there should be a significant portion curious enough to make some kind of unique setting a viable financial choice? Wouldn't that be a unique selling point, distinguishing your product from all the bland, samey competitors?

 

[Lacrymas]

The most pressing and important question is what we gain by the action taking place in Egypt or Mesoamerica. Just different architecture and aesthetic is hardly enough of a justification, settings have to influence the whole thing and allow narratives or gameplay which wouldn't work in any other setting. Otherwise Tolkien wouldn't have created a whole new world.

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

So it's too much work to come up with unique characters and narratives in an (almost) unused setting? One as rich as Ancient Egypt or Mesoamerica?

You don't have to reinvent the whole genre in order to make a setting like that more interesting than yet another random tolkienesque, medieval fantasy or post-apocalyptic setting. Even without changing any of the mechanics the uniqueness in architecture, landscapes, aesthetics and atmosphere alone would be worth trying it. If anything it should be easier to tell interesting stories in a setting that's hardly ever been used. And adapting some mechanics and systems is a task that should be relatively easy and fun to do in settings as rich in culture, religion etc. as Ancient Egypt.

What you're saying is that there is absolutely no creative talent left in game development. Is that it?

 

[badler]

I always thought it would be really cool to make a game based on an alternate reality of the sieging of Tenochtitlán by Cortés (one where the Aztecs didn't just invite him in) that is heavy on Aztec mysticism. While I think this is a cool idea it would probably be very difficult to accomplish.

Most game developers I know (myself included) have a much better grasp on Eurocentric concepts than just about anything else. It isn't even close, really. Asking them to spend hundreds of hours researching Aztec and conquistador culture/civilization is probably a hard sell. I don't think there is a point to just slapping Aztec names and architecture on a game that is built strictly on an American/European viewpoint. Might as well just create a fantasy setting at that point.

Another problem is getting the player to buy into the amount of work they're going to have to put into learning the setting. Introducing these concepts in a way that doesn't turn off or bore the player would be tough. That's one of the reasons Obsidian pays me money, but it adds a major complication to a complicated process. It would probably be a fun challenge, though.

I think it's probably viable, but only on a much larger project. One that has the budget buffer to account for all of the issues that are likely to surface. Also, probably viable on a small project with a long burn. Where the team can take it's time learning how to construct the setting properly. I would never try to do it for a smallish project with an 18 - 24 month dev cycle. You are asking to fail, imo.

Damn... now I am kind of psyched up about doing a project in that setting...

 

[Semper]

Most game developers I know (myself included) have a much better grasp on Eurocentric concepts than just about anything else. It isn't even close, really. Asking them to spend hundreds of hours researching Aztec and conquistador culture/civilization is probably a hard sell.

you make it sound like run-of-the-mill fantasy settings are grounded in houndreds of hours spent on researching medieval times. i even highly doubt that the average game developer ever takes an actual history book in hand.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I always thought it would be really cool to make a game based on an alternate reality of the sieging of Tenochtitlán by Cortés (one where the Aztecs didn't just invite him in) that is heavy on Aztec mysticism. While I think this is a cool idea it would probably be very difficult to accomplish.

Most game developers I know (myself included) have a much better grasp on Eurocentric concepts than just about anything else. It isn't even close, really. Asking them to spend hundreds of hours researching Aztec and conquistador culture/civilization is probably a hard sell. I don't think there is a point to just slapping Aztec names and architecture on a game that is built strictly on an American/European viewpoint. Might as well just create a fantasy setting at that point.

Another problem is getting the player to buy into the amount of work they're going to have to put into learning the setting. Introducing these concepts in a way that doesn't turn off or bore the player would be tough. That's one of the reasons Obsidian pays me money, but it adds a major complication to a complicated process. It would probably be a fun challenge, though.

I think it's probably viable, but only on a much larger project. One that has the budget buffer to account for all of the issues that are likely to surface. Also, probably viable on a small project with a long burn. Where the team can take it's time learning how to construct the setting properly. I would never try to do it for a smallish project with an 18 - 24 month dev cycle. You are asking to fail, imo.

Damn... now I am kind of psyched up about doing a project in that setting...

Surely that's wrong. When taking upon an unknown setting you should be allowed to take more liberties and get away with less research, because players are just as Eurocentric as the developers, so 99% of them won't notice any mistakes anyway.

 

[fantadomat]

There is an rpg set in ancient Egypt,it is called asscreed origins.

 

[Infinitron]

Here's a SAwyerpost from last week that I missed: https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...d=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=6#post476301237

Anyway, for a belated "real" response to what we're doing with rogues, we're emphasizing their mobility/invisibility tricks much more. Instead of choosing between Crippling and Blinding Strike at 1st level, rogues pick between Crippling Strike and Escape. Escape grants a large (but brief) Deflection boost after activation and upgrades into other abilities that turn the rogue invisible (Shadowing Beyond), allow the next attack to paralyze (Shadow Step), and other goodies. Backstab is much more potent and can be triggered in combat from invisibility. A high level rogue can repeatedly Escape around the battlefield, gaining brief spikes of huge Deflection while turning invisible and/or gaining the Swift (+5 Dex) inspiration.

All of the offensive abilities are still present, as are abilities like Coordinated Positioning and Smoke Cloud, but I think the emphasis on hopping around and cloaking is the biggest change.

 

[Grunker]

Can someone ask this question for me on Sawyers Tumblr since I already asked it in a different manner a while ago:

"I Divinity Original Sin 2, all companions have a suggested class, but creative players can modify and respec the companions in any way they see fit. Will Pillars of Eternity 2 feature a similar system so players playing on Path of the Damned aren't shoe-horned into either accepting sub-optimal builds or foregoing companion content, such as dialogue?"

 

[Infinitron]

Can someone ask this question for me on Sawyers Tumblr since I already asked it in a different manner a while ago:

"I Divinity Original Sin 2, all companions have a suggested class, but creative players can modify and respec the companions in any way they see fit. Will Pillars of Eternity 2 feature a similar system so players playing on Path of the Damned aren't shoe-horned into either accepting sub-optimal builds or foregoing companion content, such as dialogue?"

Multiclassing already does that, except at level one.

He's already said companions need to have at least one level in a particular class - although some companions allow you to choose which one, eg Eder can start out as a fighter OR a rogue.

 

[Lacrymas]

Even before him seeing that question I know the answer, and that answer is no. The companions' stats are such as to reflect their narrative abilities, Durance is a semi-cripple, so his DEX is 9, etc. I doubt he'll allow a change of class as well.

 

[Grunker]

Can someone ask this question for me on Sawyers Tumblr since I already asked it in a different manner a while ago:

"I Divinity Original Sin 2, all companions have a suggested class, but creative players can modify and respec the companions in any way they see fit. Will Pillars of Eternity 2 feature a similar system so players playing on Path of the Damned aren't shoe-horned into either accepting sub-optimal builds or foregoing companion content, such as dialogue?"

Multiclassing already does that, except at level one.

He's already said companions need to have at least one level in a particular class - although some companions allow you to choose which one, eg Eder can start out as a fighter OR a rogue.

No it doesn't. I'm talking a full respec. DivOS2 allows you to control everything.

Even before him seeing that question I know the answer, and that answer is no. The companions' stats are such as to reflect their narrative abilities, Durance is a semi-cripple, so his DEX is 9, etc. I doubt he'll allow a change of class as well.

I know this will be his response, I want to have the discussion with him. Sure, that's how he feels, but what's the issue with giving the choice to the player? They're already functionally doing it with hirelings - except then you have to waive narrative content.

 

[Lacrymas]

The issue is that the world is not constructed around the player's convenience, the companions are their own people with their own abilities and skills. That's a good thing, as it shows that the world does not start with the new game button, nor is it a children's playground for you to rearrange the sand castles. In other words, it's meaningful. You can always use a cheatengine to change whatever you desire if you really want to.

 

[Grunker]

You're certainly welcome to that opinion and I sure wouldn't ask the developers to force you to play with modified companions. Not sure why you care about my playthrough to the extent you want them to force me to played with unmodified ones.

You can always use a cheatengine to change whatever you desire if you really want to.

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to direct me to the mod that makes this possible in PoE. (Spare yourself the work: it doesn't exist.)