Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Kitchen Utensil]

Ancient Egypt and Maya civilisation are also criminally underused.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

There is plenty of criminally underused settings to make a RPG in

Come to think of it, I want a Discworld CRPG

 

[Got bored and left]

Ancient Egypt and Maya civilisation are also criminally underused.

Pretty much everything is criminally underused. Most video game writers and designers have the frames of reference of an average 12-year old.

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

Ancient Egypt and Maya civilisation are also criminally underused.

Pretty much everything is criminally underused. Most video game writers and designers have the frames of reference of an average 12-year old.

True. It's sad.

I don't think it's their frames of reference though, and neither should it be a lack of interest: If I had the means to produce/design/write a game, I'd definitely pick one of those interesting, fresh (as in underused) settings. There are so many possibilities, untold stories, and opportunities to create really unique places, designs, atmosphere, characters etc.
It's more likely them playing it safe. But I still don't understand it; I don't want to believe that players would refuse to buy well-made games just because of their unfamiliarity with one of those underused settings. But then again, what is the reason? :/

 

[pomenitul]

That's what happens when your trade is predicated on nostalgia. You need to continually feed the twelve-year old within, and what better way to accomplish that than to churn out the same antiquated heroic fantasy/sci-fi tropes over and over again? Of course, if your goal is to rekindle the experience of wonder that was felt at that age, you need to devise something utterly new – a risky proposal, especially since you're likely to fail not only aesthetically but financially as well.

 

[Prime Junta]

It's perhaps not frames of reference as such, but I'm quite sure unfamiliarity is a thing. If you want to set something in, say, Pharaonic Egypt, and you want to get it even approximately right, most people are going to need to do a metric fuckton of research. I ran a sort-of-historical PnP RPG campaign set in Egypt during the reign of Tiberius (already more familiar) and fuck me if it wasn't hard to pull off. Just from simple basic adventuring stuff, like... what kinds of locks were there? That alone led to a really interesting bit of reading about fine mechanics in the classical world.

 

[Lacrymas]

How do they know if not feeding nostalgia won't sell? Yes, trying to appease abstract vague memories of feelings lost long ago will inevitably lead nowhere, so I don't think anybody even tried to tbh. Can you honestly say that PoE is like BG? Sure, they tried to be both BG and not-BG at the same time and failing at both, but outside of surface qualities like being "isometric", a Sword Coast-like slice of the world and the standard fantasy races, I wouldn't say PoE is like BG. Neither in tone, nor intention, nor exploration, nor combat, nor aesthetic, nor anything, really. Trying to make the lightning strike twice is a fool endeavor and pretty much impossible in this and similar contexts.

 

[pomenitul]

For what it's worth, speaking as a, yes, ex-twelve-year old who played and replayed BG1 innumerable times when it first came out, I did respond to PoE's nostalgia bait. Make of that what you will.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

It's perhaps not frames of reference as such, but I'm quite sure unfamiliarity is a thing. If you want to set something in, say, Pharaonic Egypt, and you want to get it even approximately right, most people are going to need to do a metric fuckton of research. I ran a sort-of-historical PnP RPG campaign set in Egypt during the reign of Tiberius (already more familiar) and fuck me if it wasn't hard to pull off. Just from simple basic adventuring stuff, like... what kinds of locks were there? That alone led to a really interesting bit of reading about fine mechanics in the classical world.

Similarly, it was a gigantic pain in the ass for me to play Shogun: Total War since the only thing I knew about medieval Japan is roughly where to locate it on the map. Rome:TW by comparision was much easier to get into. Instantly knowing who is who, which building does what, which enemies might be difficult, recognizing the function of each unit without reading the descriptions...it might not seem like a lot, but all of that stuff adds up and has tremendous impact on the barrier of entry.

 

[Lacrymas]

That's on you, however, not the game. You projected your nostalgia-laden desires onto PoE, while it has almost nothing to do with BG except trying to be it and failing. I played BG1 and 2 after I had finished PoE, so I don't have "nostalgia" to cloud my vision, but I also don't think nostalgia is a good thing or worth building on top of. Blatant recycling of the past usually gets my knickers in a twist and I can easily spot cheap tactics like trying to appeal to it. What I do want to know is if this tactic actually works and these games are popular due to nostalgia, and only possible because of it, rather than any other merits it has. Why did PoE sell ~1M copies? Why did D:OS sell even more (what nostalgia is it feeding?)? Would they sell this well if it wasn't for nostalgia?

 

[Got bored and left]

It's perhaps not frames of reference as such, but I'm quite sure unfamiliarity is a thing. If you want to set something in, say, Pharaonic Egypt, and you want to get it even approximately right, most people are going to need to do a metric fuckton of research. I ran a sort-of-historical PnP RPG campaign set in Egypt during the reign of Tiberius (already more familiar) and fuck me if it wasn't hard to pull off. Just from simple basic adventuring stuff, like... what kinds of locks were there? That alone led to a really interesting bit of reading about fine mechanics in the classical world.

That is pretty much what I meant by frames of reference; the only difference being that I would include all of culture into consideration. To come back to Tolkien, you can see traces of all manner of stuff in his work, things he exposed himself to, studied, and knew intimately - perhaps most underrateldy, Anglo-Saxon literature: hell, the famous "Where now are the horse and the rider?" is taken almost word-for-word from The Wanderer, and this feeling of melancholy, of the old world going away, is something that permeates LotR, much like it does the medieval poetry that it draws from generously. At the same time, of course, he was able to take all those things and make them his own, to provide his perspective on age-old concepts. In order to notice that, to appreciate that, and, importantly, to write like that, you have to consume all manners of works, literary or otherwise. But ask your average developer about what they found interesting in Tolkien and they'll propably respond with something along the lines of "man, are dwarves cool or what?!". I believe that they are incapable of producing anything interesting on an intellectual level - not necessarily because they're stupid, but because they're limited. Their scope of cultural reference (and don't even get me started on historical), generally, ends on Lotr, Star Wars, Star Trek, and Battlestar Galactica. For someone with the pretenses of being a writer, that simply cannot do.

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

It's perhaps not frames of reference as such, but I'm quite sure unfamiliarity is a thing. If you want to set something in, say, Pharaonic Egypt, and you want to get it even approximately right, most people are going to need to do a metric fuckton of research. I ran a sort-of-historical PnP RPG campaign set in Egypt during the reign of Tiberius (already more familiar) and fuck me if it wasn't hard to pull off. Just from simple basic adventuring stuff, like... what kinds of locks were there? That alone led to a really interesting bit of reading about fine mechanics in the classical world.

Similarly, it was a gigantic pain in the ass for me to play Shogun: Total War since the only thing I knew about medieval Japan is roughly where to locate it on the map. Rome:TW by comparision was much easier to get into. Instantly knowing who is who, which building does what, which enemies might be difficult, recognizing the function of each unit without reading the descriptions...it might not seem like a lot, but all of that stuff adds up and has tremendous impact on the barrier of entry.

So the times when familiarising yourself with a new setting and set of mechanics was part of the fun are over?

 

[FreeKaner]

I do not understand why familiarity is supposed to be a net positive. What about discovery? When I played age of empires as a kid I was stoked to learn about all the factions. Who were these people, what did they do? Similarly when I played a fantasy game not set in real world then the exploration of the new world was what filled me with enthusiasm and joy. If you are some late 20s and early 30s guys trying to invoke memories of your childhood by playing games, trying to recreate the same sense of wonder and lust for exploration you had then; Is playing familiar games with familiar concepts and familiar settings really best way to do it?

 

[pomenitul]

That's on you, however, not the game. You projected your nostalgia-laden desires onto PoE, while it has almost nothing to do with BG except trying to be it and failing. I played BG1 and 2 after I had finished PoE, so I don't have "nostalgia" to cloud my vision, but I also don't think nostalgia is a good thing or worth building on top of. Blatant recycling of the past usually gets my knickers in a twist and I can easily spot cheap tactics like trying to appeal to it. What I do want to know is if this tactic actually works and these games are popular due to nostalgia, and only possible because of it, rather than any other merits it has. Why did PoE sell ~1M copies? Why did D:OS sell even more (what nostalgia is it feeding?)? Would they sell this well if it wasn't for nostalgia?

Given your track record, I think it's safe to say that my willingness to suspend disbelief when playing a CRPG is greater than yours, perhaps because I tend to dissociate childish (i.e. nostalgic and easy-going) fun from my other activities. I don't think you're wrong to expect more from developers – the medium's potential is obvious, and seeing it squandered is hardly pleasant – but we all have to pick our battles. I personally reserve my ire for formulaic music or literature or film or (visual) art and shut my critical eye when playing CRPGs (albeit never completely, since 'criticism is as inevitable as breathing,' to quote T. S. Eliot). If anything, I'd love to see some of the more opinionated Codexers, you included, try their hand at making a game. After all, Jean-Luc Godard was a film critic before he became a filmmaker. :D

 

[JarlFrank]

FreeKaner
Great point. I never had as much of a feeling of discovery as I had when first playing Morrowind and Gothic 2, both RPGs with a heavy focus on exploration, and non-standard fantasy worlds (I hadn't played Gothic 1 before so the Valley of the Mines was a fresh and interesting area for me).

Generic fantasy has been done to death and I'm rather tired of it by now. Kobolds! Goblins! Everything's the same as in D&D!
Yeah this would be exciting if I had never played a fantasy RPG before but I've been playing pen and paper D&D for over a decade, and played dozens of RPGs from all eras of gaming (80s to 2010s) so if a game has a perfectly generic, samey setting, it's just not going to capture me.

 

[Lacrymas]

Why would you want to recreate the most boring part of life in general? The only exciting things that happened in our lives as children were in the games we were playing, I think that's why we were playing them in the first place. Now that we are adults the exciting stuff also happen outside of games, but our enthusiasm for the hobby hasn't diminished, it has gotten more complicated. Like these things usually tend to do. That's why these nostalgia-baits don't blow our minds anymore, we've been through this and it's time for something more.

Given your track record, I think it's safe to say that my willingness to suspend disbelief when playing a CRPG is greater than yours, perhaps because I tend to dissociate childish (i.e. nostalgic and easy-going) fun from my other activities. I don't think you're wrong to expect more from developers – the medium's potential is obvious, and seeing it squandered is hardly pleasant – but we all have to pick our battles. I personally reserve my ire for formulaic music or literature or film or (visual) art and shut my critical eye when playing CRPGs (albeit never completely, since 'criticism is as inevitable as breathing,' to quote T. S. Eliot). If anything, I'd love to see some of the more opinionated Codexers, you included, try their hand at making a game. After all, Jean-Luc Godard was a film critic before he became a filmmaker. :D

Oh, trust me, you have no idea how hard I rip to shreds modern music, but I've been disillusioned with the "standard" arts for a while now. It's complicated, something I don't want to get into now. It's more depressing than passionate. I also want to get involved with the games industry to try to show how it's done and I'll try my best to do it.

 

[FreeKaner]

Why would you want to recreate the most boring part of life in general? The only exciting things that happened in our lives as children were in the games we were playing, I think that's why we were playing them in the first place.

I enjoyed my childhood in general, games included. Maybe not the most exciting part so but they were definitely most encompassing. Still, I never understood the fascination with nostalgia, isn't it sad if all you want is trying to recreate what did happen rather than experiencing what it could be? It's why maybe aside from all the faults of the games, I get disappointed by their adherence to a norm or trend. The medium which would benefit from exploration and discovery most, where creative energy can let us experience something completely new.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

It's perhaps not frames of reference as such, but I'm quite sure unfamiliarity is a thing. If you want to set something in, say, Pharaonic Egypt, and you want to get it even approximately right, most people are going to need to do a metric fuckton of research. I ran a sort-of-historical PnP RPG campaign set in Egypt during the reign of Tiberius (already more familiar) and fuck me if it wasn't hard to pull off. Just from simple basic adventuring stuff, like... what kinds of locks were there? That alone led to a really interesting bit of reading about fine mechanics in the classical world.

Similarly, it was a gigantic pain in the ass for me to play Shogun: Total War since the only thing I knew about medieval Japan is roughly where to locate it on the map. Rome:TW by comparision was much easier to get into. Instantly knowing who is who, which building does what, which enemies might be difficult, recognizing the function of each unit without reading the descriptions...it might not seem like a lot, but all of that stuff adds up and has tremendous impact on the barrier of entry.

So the times when familiarising yourself with a new setting and set of mechanics was part of the fun are over?

I do not understand why familiarity is supposed to be a net positive. What about discovery? When I played age of empires as a kid I was stoked to learn about all the factions. Who were these people, what did they do? Similarly when I played a fantasy game not set in real world then the exploration of the new world was what filled me with enthusiasm and joy. If you are some late 20s and early 30s guys trying to invoke memories of your childhood by playing games, trying to recreate the same sense of wonder and lust for exploration you had then; Is playing familiar games with familiar concepts and familiar settings really best way to do it?

Look, I'm not saying it all needs to be familiar. I'm as tired of generic fantasy as anybody. But you need to strike the right between the new and the old.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I also want to get into the games industry to try to show how it's done and I'll try my best to do it.

Well shit, that oughta be worth watching.

 

[aweigh]

can we all just finally admit PoE is good for what it is?

 

[Got bored and left]

can we all just finally admit PoE is good for what it is?

Sounds like you should write a review!

Spoiler

And yes, I agree.

 

[Lacrymas]

can we all just finally admit PoE is good for what it is?

It's not. Everything it did has been done before and much better. It's a lame game with a sprinkling of good bits in there, WM2 being a high point.

 

[Sentinel]

can we all just finally admit PoE is good for what it is?

It's an uninspired clone that decided to veer off on all the wrong things. It's not good. It's not bad either. It just kinda exists.

 

[aweigh]

that's quite a philosophical rumination, TheSentinel . In a way, and excuse me for perhaps acting out of turn here... you're saying that PoE is intrinsically tied to the atavistic yolk that we commonly refer to as our soul, our spirit, our essence, our grace.

It is neither an observation of entropy but neither is PoE able to be said to be existing either... I also find very interesting how you posit int he beginning of your impactful conclusion here how you also believe PoE is not only "more than a game", but rather so far beyond such matters that it is (as most of us Codexers long suspected) an almost Taoist non-message of the nature that governs the lack of all nature.

It was made, as you say, with shockingly graceful ambitions that are simultaenously driven into immutability because, as you rightfully point out: in PoE's creation we can now be sure that the grace of enlightenment guided those developers hands and swayed the blades of grass within their heart of hearts into bending, but never breaking.

After all, if it the great Lao Tzu said that without stillness there can be no motion, then we can also say:

"Without PoE, there is no being".

Lovely post TheSentinel, very thoughtful. The way you lay out the simple fact that PoE's creation is far above the trivialities of morality, goodness, badness, and that it is there only when we observe but it is also there when we do not... You truly have a way with words my friend.

 

[Fry]

I also want to get into the games industry to try to show how it's done and I'll try my best to do it.

Well shit, that oughta be worth watching.

If he plans to subject his future coworkers to the endless stream of masturbatory soliloquies we get here, I would quite literally pay to watch it.