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KickStarter Apocalypse Now RPG by Monty Markland - terminated with extreme prejudice!

MLMarkland

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The fact that this thing exists.

So you did not read the game design document.

You do understand that Apocalypse Now is based on Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness and Homer's The Odyssey, right?

Speaking of Fig, why didn't you use that instead? You've got the connections through Obsidian and Feargus and it seems ideal for something like this.

1) We wanted to avoid the questions of crowd equity which was an entirely unsettled question when we started out.
2) We knew most movie-based games are garbage and that it would take at least a year to show people all of the reasons why Apocalypse Now is not a movie-tie-in game.
3) We knew everybody else in the world pitched Apocalypse Now as a shooter because that's what is easy and makes sense, therefore we planned on presenting a more comprehensive and authentic game proposal to the public over the course of a long period of time.

Neither Kickstarter nor FIG support #2 or #3.
 

MLMarkland

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Mustawd

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You do understand that Apocalypse Now is based on Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness and Homer's The Odyssey, right?

You do realize they didn't fucking make a video game that will ape a great movie and be completely shit, right?

Also, why don't you address the res tof my post? For example:

MLMarkland , wtf is your problem? Don't you have any original ideas for a game? Are you really that creatively bankrupt that you need to lean on a classic movie and drag it through the mud to make a few fucking dollars you fucking piece of shit?

In short...





Zombra , why do you even think this is a good idea? I can understand some people ITT having a vested interest in defending this sack of shit, but why do you even think this should see the light of day? This is like Fallout 3 all over again. Or Star Wars. Or Indiana Jones.

It's a fucking travesty. Not something to be encouraged.
 

MLMarkland

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Also, why don't you address the res tof my post?

I didn't feel like it was worth addressing.

Edit:

That was quick. Diagnosis butthurt:

1dj5.jpg
 
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MLMarkland

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Can I take psychedelic drugs to alleviate my PTSD and see the world thru a spinning. colorful trippy filter in this game?

The exact implementation of psychedelics will be worked out over the course of development.

I generally dislike extravagantly try-hard colorful "representations" of a trip, for example in many movies, because that is inauthentic unless you happen to be taking DMT.
 

Zombra

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Yep! Thanks.

Zombra , why do you even think this is a good idea? I can understand some people ITT having a vested interest in defending this sack of shit, but why do you even think this should see the light of day? This is like Fallout 3 all over again. Or Star Wars. Or Indiana Jones. It's a fucking travesty. Not something to be encouraged.
Huh. I didn't really think about it before, but there are a lot of moving parts here. Who cares what I think? Well, you asked:
  • First: am I "defending" the project? I feel like I'm just interested and conversing about it normally. Maybe treating it with respect at all is a crime?
  • I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but it sounds interesting. Fascinating, even. Lots of experimental ideas and innovations. (Same goes for what we know about their business model.) Like other kickstarters (and kickstarter-likes), this may be a disaster or it may be an epiphany (or it may be both). I'm willing to gamble a few $ on it and pay some attention to development. Worst case scenario, what have I lost?
  • Apocalypse Now isn't a sacred cow to me. I gather nostalgia is your biggest issue. Confession: I never watched the film until I heard about this project. (Then I did watch it, and it is amazing, of course.) There is a zero percent chance that something from my childhood will be ruined here. If you can't stand to see a classic desecrated, I totally get it, but I don't share that perspective. I just see a chance (a chance, mind you) to play a brilliant, mind-blowing hybrid RPG that will elevate the medium, inspired by a brilliant, mind-blowing film that elevated that medium. In that sense, this has the potential (the potential) to be the next Bloodlines.
  • Sometimes, sequels, reboots etc. are horrible, of course ... but not always. Will this be as bad as Highlander 2? Maybe. But maybe not! Terminator 2. Paul's Boutique. Pride and Prejudice. Ultimate Marvel. Hell, Empire Strikes Back, dude. You've made up your mind already, and I see no reason to argue about it ... me, I'm happy to wait and see what they come up with.
  • I have a thing for Carrie, so being able to pledge for an official project at the Carrie level nourishes a strange urge in the dark cavern of my guts.
  • Coppola is on board. Maybe time, age, and distance have spoiled his perspective, but if he's not angry, who are you and I that we should be angry? ... at least until the project does prove to be a travesty.
  • MLMarkland has a plan; he's confident, experienced, and responsive; he speaks my language; and it's fun watching him deflect criticism and return fire at detractors. Do he and his team really know what they're doing? Have I been hypnotized by his personal charm? Is this whole thing a scam? A fever dream perhaps? Maybe ... but again, what have I lost if it doesn't work out?
I get the nostalgia-rage - really, I do - but is this battle really a good use of your energy? Why not unsubscribe thread and post about games you do like? You don't have to know or care about this any more than you know or care about the Apocalypse Now action figures that are out there. (Seriously, they exist. Don't look it up.)
 
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da_rays

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Just stumble upon this thread . Lots of emotions in here . gonna be fun ^^

Now for being a bit more serious . Im currently browsing your GDD and i add a few questions . What incite me to come to this thread was : thoses 3 keys words : Immersive , Horror and RPG.

1) How does your survival / horror / RPG compare to , lets say Fallout 3 or 4, in term of game mechanics for exploring the world and have a reaction from it? Be it with NPC , obsctacles , puzzle or different way to tackle a problem? Im comparing to F3/4 because its gonna be a FPS with RPG elements if im understanding right?

2) How does your choices react to the world around you? With lines of texts? new locations / loot / new dialogue?

3) What is your aim with the PC inner monologue? With it be a way to reflect on the things youve done or gonna be doing and how you are gonna do it?

and thats it for now i guess. Ill take a good read on the documents you linked since i just skimmed it quickly.


Looking forward to yours answers and good luck with the project
 

MLMarkland

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the Apocalypse Now action figures that are out there. (Seriously, they exist. Don't look it up.)

I didn't even know these existed...

You make a lot of good points. I am very charming. More importantly, it is free to pledge. We charge nothing when you pledge. We do not run your credit card or debit card. We will not collect your pledges until the entire budget for the game is raised (notice the subtle shift in word choice, that is intentional but not nefarious). You can cancel your pledge at any time. We warn everyone 30 days before we do collect the pledges, so if you forget to cancel you can cancel then. We've eliminated the "risk burden" of crowdfunding inherent in Crowdfunding 1.0 models with the website we built & the system we imposed.

As for nostalgia and frustration thereof, I relate to that. I'm not making Apocalypse Now as a game adaptation because it's the most profitable thing for me to do with my time. I would have gone and worked for Zynga seven years ago. I watched Alien: Covenant, a movie which both fails to be an Alien movie AND FAILS TO BE A MOVIE. I hated every single shot. Every single decision. I can't name a single character from it. There was no protagonist. The xenomorph doesn't show up up 2/3rds into the movie. Everything about it was absolutely terrible and I hated it and I don't care if this DQs me from ever working on the franchise again for saying it.

That's not what we're doing. I watched Apocalypse Now over a 100 times at this point in my life, at least 80 of them since starting this project. Authentic to the original vision is a primary requirement, not a goal. If it's not authentic, we're going to cancel it and no one is ever going to get charged.

1) How does your survival / horror / RPG compare to , lets say Fallout 3 or 4, in term of game mechanics for exploring the world and have a reaction from it? Be it with NPC , obsctacles , puzzle or different way to tackle a problem? Im comparing to F3/4 because its gonna be a FPS with RPG elements if im understanding right?

There's two major sections to the FPS/RPG angle:

A) The game has a single main objective: "Terminate the Colonel" much like Fallout 1 has a single main objective: "Get water chip." Everything else in the game is a secondary objective, a target of opportunity, whatnot. There are going to be manifold ways of "solving" any given secondary objective. We'll always stay rooted in the reality of the War in Vietnam (Apocalypse Now version), so the choices will be grounded and specific. Being diplomatic will work in a lot of places, not everyone is hostile, but trying to be diplomatic with the Viet Cong is not going to work because it wouldn't work in Vietnam. But the game is about surviving, telling your own story and completing or abandoning your primary mission. You can recon around the world very carefully. You can stick to settled and more safe areas. We have a variety of subplots running concurrent with the main plot. What you choose to do at the PX or at Nha Trang or wherever impacts those subplots. In any given scenario we will ask "what could Willard conceivably do here?" and then create as many possibilities as time allows that are suitable for a special operator attached to MACV-SOG on an assassination mission. There will be things that are "puzzles" but not in the sense of the word that a fantasy game would have puzzles; puzzles will be more narrative or realistically grounded. And your friends in the crew of the Erebus will certainly be a major, always changing part of the world around you. Deus Ex (90s), System Shock 1/2, Fallout 1/2, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. are all games that inform our decisions here a lot. Your character skills and attributes will matter too, it's not a button mashing game at all, there are no cinematics, no QTEs, etc.

B) Combat (when you can't or don't escape the enemy)

One of my first game experiences as a professional developer was watching the Alpha Protocol team struggle with the balance between "twitch aiming" and "RPG skill based combat outcomes." I have played a thousand hours of CoD 1/2 and PayDay 2 and Arma3. I like to shoot and have the bullet go where I aimed in a first person game. BUT I'm not everybody, I'm just the first player of this particular game. And it is an RPG first and foremost. So internally we argued about this a lot and then it struck us that a blatantly obvious solution was available that no one had ever bothered with (afaik).

We just leave it up to you.

There is a slider in the options menu. If you want your character's skills to dominate combat you dial it up to maximum character skill. If you want your own skills to dominate combat, you dial it up to maximum player skill. There will be gradations in between. None of this makes the combat system much more complex than a baseline RPG combat system (and in fact makes it more simple in some ways).

My belief is not many people want it to be HALFWAY (though we'll let you put the dial at halfway if you want to). I think most people want it one way or another, and so we're just going to do the obvious answer. Sometimes the obvious easy answer is right. I think millions or billions of dollars have been wasted on this challenge. We're not going to waste any money trying to come up with a perfect solution because it doesn't exist.

On horror, like I briefly mention below, the document goes way more in depth that I could here. Though I'm happy to answer specific questions about the subject. Ditto on survival, the totality of the game is a survival experience, but to the extent that it is engaging. We aren't going to simulate you taking a shit. We will probably simulate thirst. Somewhere around there lays the line.

2) How does your choices react to the world around you? With lines of texts? new locations / loot / new dialogue?

All of the above and more. Music. Color grading of the world. Dialog choices. Characters you meet. Your Psychological stability. Your Karma. Gear that you find. Locations that you access. Secondary objectives becoming available and assigned to you. Access to safe locations. Access to extremely dangerous locations. The various endgame path sets that you end up on. The survival of your fellow soldiers. The crew of the Erebus. Anyone you come in contact with that you might care about (The French Plantation). Your final confrontation with Colonel Kurtz.

I got into making games because I have been unsatisfied with roleplaying games for 15 years. I'm going to make a game I like. The kind they used to make. Or we start killing hostages.

3) What is your aim with the PC inner monologue? With it be a way to reflect on the things youve done or gonna be doing and how you are gonna do it?

The inner monologue serves three functions:

A) Subtext

Video games rarely have great subtext (some do, 99% don't). In our game, you choose the subtext of your actions and words. For example, you're cold and stand-offish with the crew, but you're doing it because you know it helps keep them alive. Traditionally, a game writer will write a terrible line of dialog where the PC says: "I'm doing this to keep you alive." Which is bad writing. Maybe it's even more dumb because you can grab them by the collar. We're not going to do that. Whatever we do has to stand up to the original motion picture or it is not worth doing.

Your inner monologue, in a narrative game, allows you to comment on your own actions and verbal statements outside of the context of speaking with other people. We will certainly embed subtext in the dialog. But the inner monologue creates opportunities for the Player to add to the subtext of the story.

B) Impact on the Characters & World

The subtext by itself isn't enough, it's borderline LARPing. So it also has to be connected to the main plot and the subplots, as well as be something that affects your character (certainly your Karma and Psychology). Also, what you tell yourself has to change what you have the opportunity to say in dialogs downchain. Apocalypse Now is about a human journey that is universal. What you tell yourself you're doing is as important as what you are actually doing, from your own point-of-view. That's a psychological fraught path in reality. That path leads to Colonel Kurtz. In your case, I doubt you establish a tyrannical godhead in your second bedroom; but going through the psychological journey of Willard is as important as going through the physical journey. Also your choices in your inner monologue will impact large scale events in the gameworld. If you "stay on mission" in your mind, if you "stay a part of their Army", you're going to have a different set of narrative paths through the endgame, than if you think about going rogue, or come to identify with Colonel Kurtz (as Willard does in the motion picture).

C) Horror, tension and dread.

What you say to yourself, or imagine to yourself, will be a useful way to generate a variety of emotions during the game, particularly tension and dread.

There are a few examples of non-interactive (no player choice), terribly written, inner monologues in games (Life is Strange does it I think, but I've only watched some videos). In our case it will be well-written and interactive and integrated with the rest of the game.

On the topic of horror, the game design document goes in depth quite a bit.

Looking forward to yours answers and good luck with the project

Thank you.
 
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Zombra

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Authentic to the original vision is a primary requirement, not a goal. If it's not authentic, we're going to cancel it.
Totally support this intention, of course. I hope it's not too trite to remind everyone out loud that one man's faithful adaptation is another man's mockery. Especially with a work of art (if I can use that word) like AN, it's kinda hard to state in absolute terms that you're going to nail it. For example, if I'm comparing damage stats on three different assault rifles in a merchant screen, on some level the "feel" of the film has necessarily been compromised. The ability to "fast travel" back to previously visited locations is directly contrary to the feelings of increasing isolation that were primary to my interpretation of Willard's journey. And so forth.

I have every confidence that the "feel" will be amazing, but there's going to be room to complain for those who want to.

no cinematics
incline
incline.png


There is a slider in the options menu. If you want your character's skills to dominate combat you dial it up to maximum character skill. If you want your own skills to dominate combat, you dial it up to maximum player skill.
How does this work with the character advancement system? Can I "dump" (put zero points into) weapon skills but turn the "stats matter" dial all the way to zero?

The inner monologue
This is a really good idea. I'm very excited about this. Reminds me of some of the Infinity Engine games where you have options like

Help find my puppy?
1) "I promise I'll help find your puppy." (Truth)
2) "I promise I'll help find your puppy." (Lie)
3) "No thank you."


only much more involved and impactful on the course of the game and character development. Thanks for this.
 

MLMarkland

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I have every confidence that the "feel" will be amazing, but there's going to be room to complain for those who want to.

My primary point-of-view on this is that literally everything is an adaptation of something else. Fallout only exists because Fargo lost the rights to Wasteland which was a early riff on Mad Max which came full circle and riffed on Fallout in Mad Max: Fury Road.

There is literally nothing new under the sun. All you have is your own point-of-view, faithfulness to the material and strong execution.

People said for 76 years, "No one can make Heart of Darkness into a movie." That's why American Zoetrope tried and came up with Apocalypse Now.

The biggest problem in Hollywood isn't the lack of new ideas. The biggest problem is that Hollywood has forgotten to pay attention to 4,500 years of human civilization.

How does this work with the character advancement system? Can I "dump" (put zero points into) weapon skills but turn the "stats matter" dial all the way to zero?

Yes

This is a really good idea. I'm very excited about this. Reminds me of some of the Infinity Engine games where you have options like

Help find my puppy?
1) "I promise I'll help find your puppy." (Truth)
2) "I promise I'll help find your puppy." (Lie)
3) "No thank you."


only much more involved and impactful on the course of the game and character development. Thanks for this.

Yes it is definitely an advancement of that concept. And others. I don't know if it made it into the game on Torment: Tides of Numenera (because I have never played it), but I suggested a long time ago, that your Torment character should be able to "read people's thoughts" in a dialog if you had the right ability. It's a similar line of thought to all of that. I left Torment to work on Apocalypse Now.
 

DarKPenguiN

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I'm going to have to go back and read through this thread because evidently theres good drama here-

But idk...Sounds cool from what I'm reading on this page- Not sure why all the hate =/

I would play it. If its because its a movie tie in at least its something classic with a world that has some depth to play with and a good setting and not based on the 'flavor of the month' SJW comic book tie in movie or whatever. I think it could be good.
 

CreamyBlood

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Sounds good to me. I watched the initial pitch back when it was released and thought it could be fun. They have Coppola on board. I've watched the movie a handful of times over my lifetime (probably not for a decade or two now) and I remember it being a good movie.

It sounds like it could be fun. I'm an FPS guy, so I'd turn that full-on then leave all the RPG stuff as is. Plus it sounds like they're trying to do the RPG stuff just like everyone on this board has been wanting for over fifteen years. Not sure how that is so offensive to these SJW types. It's like a hybrid FPS/RPG/Adventure set in Vietnam.

Anyone here that knows me knows that I'm an Arma guy, I like war settings.

On top of that you can pledge without paying a dime until D-Day. BUT you get a 30-day warning to bail out if you get wet feet.

How is this a scam to anybody? Sounds like good deal to anyone that enjoys these game genres and the war setting. Anyways, I'll be reading several hundred pages of bitching from armchair developers that can't read a design document or know what it is.
 

Zombra

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How does this work with the character advancement system? Can I "dump" (put zero points into) weapon skills but turn the "stats matter" dial all the way to zero?
Yes
Disappointing. I'd prefer to play stats-based rather than skill-based, but why would I make a character with 5 points in Shooting and 5 points in Speech when I could make 0 Shooting / 10 Speech and be just as successful in combat? "RPG-type" players are getting screwed.
 

MLMarkland

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Plus it sounds like they're trying to do the RPG stuff just like everyone on this board has been wanting for over fifteen years.

Exactly. I've been a member here before I worked in the game business. 12 years including lurking whatever. I've tried to make the kind of RPG that I've wanted for a decade "inside the system." No one will do it right. So we're going outside the system. If this doesn't work, we'll try it another way. That's been the entire point. The game industry is worthless. Literally 100% completely worthless as it exists today. Billions of dollars wasted on nonsense for a decade and a half with a handful of good games, most of which started as mods or maybe some GTA/PayDay/Arma sequels.

I remember when I thought Mass Effect was a bad game. Now it's sequels make it look like solid gold.

We're working on remedying this, and other people are too, but it's always going to be a fight. Just like making the original movie was. It took 12 years to go from script to screen on Apocalypse Now.

How does this work with the character advancement system? Can I "dump" (put zero points into) weapon skills but turn the "stats matter" dial all the way to zero?
Yes
Disappointing. I'd prefer to play stats-based rather than skill-based, but why would I make a character with 5 points in Shooting and 5 points in Speech when I could make 0 Shooting / 10 Speech and be just as successful in combat? "RPG-type" players are getting screwed.

In that case you would only be as successful in combat as your twitch gameplay abilities allow. If you are not a good twitch shooter, you should put points in shooting. If you want to somewhat blend between one end of the spectrum or the other you can do that too -- there's going to be at least 7 - 11 notches on the player/character skill balance dial.

Traditionally the complaints have been either:

1) "I'm not good at twitch shooting and so this part of the game does not work for me." or

The other common complaint is:

"I'm good at aiming in a game why do my character skills interfere with this part; I want my skills to effect the things I can't directly control."

Those are the two camps. There is no non-terrible implementation of stats-based/twitch-based blended shooting that satisfies both camps. Therefore the only rational option is to give the individual players the control over which camp they want to live in. Does that unbalance the game some in regards to skill points? Yes.

But I believe you cannot play a game "in your style" (which is vitally important to an RPG) if you do not have the option of playing "sub-optimally." If you want perfectly balanced gameplay with optimal builds, MOBAs or MMOs or Chess are all good options.

Sub-optimal survivable play choices are fundamental to good roleplaying games.

Put another way: Making the game "fair to all players" is not a priority at all. I don't care if the game is fair. I care that it is good.

I'm going to have to go back and read through this thread because evidently theres good drama here-

But idk...Sounds cool from what I'm reading on this page- Not sure why all the hate =/

I would play it. If its because its a movie tie in at least its something classic with a world that has some depth to play with and a good setting and not based on the 'flavor of the month' SJW comic book tie in movie or whatever. I think it could be good.

Thank you. A big distinction is that there is no "Apocalypse Now" sequel coming out. There's no marketing team driving the "product." 99% of movie games are marketing operations designed to sell movie tickets and therefore popcorn. We're not selling any popcorn.
 
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Mustawd

Guest
I forgot something today and it took me hours and hundred of dollars to remediate, so I decided to take my frustration and anger out on this project. Sue me. I still do feel the way i do, but probably was no point in me saying so. If anything it makes the dev look sympathetic when some mexican is yelling at him on the internet.

Let me say a few things before I respond to your points Zombra:

-I DO hope this project fails. I hope it fails miserably. Not because I know the dev personally or whatever. I just hate things like this. Leave AN as it is. Go do something original with your creativity. Why must you revive old franchises? It's shitty and a dick move
People said for 76 years, "No one can make Heart of Darkness into a movie."
It's not the same you fucking hack. Why do you keep falling back on that AN is an adaptation of Heart of Darkness? It's a re-imagining in a completely different setting. What your game is doing is taking the literal movie and making it a game. It's completely different.


  • First: am I "defending" the project? I feel like I'm just interested and conversing about it normally. Maybe treating it with respect at all is a crime?

Yes. Treating this as something credible is treating it as if it should be made and giving it legitimacy. Is it a crime? No, of course not. Would it be if it was up to me? Maybe, but I'd let you off with probation cuz I like you.

  • I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but it sounds interesting. Fascinating, even. Lots of experimental ideas and innovations. (Same goes for what we know about their business model.) Like other kickstarters (and kickstarter-likes), this may be a disaster or it may be an epiphany (or it may be both). I'm willing to gamble a few $ on it and pay some attention to development. Worst case scenario, what have I lost?

What have you lost? What about a little self respect? Moral high ground? The ability to look into your grandchildren's eyes and tell them you've always done the right thing no matter what?

  • Apocalypse Now isn't a sacred cow to me. I gather nostalgia is your biggest issue. Confession: I never watched the film until I heard about this project. (Then I did watch it, and it is amazing, of course.) There is a zero percent chance that something from my childhood will be ruined here. If you can't stand to see a classic desecrated, I totally get it, but I don't share that perspective. I just see a chance (a chance, mind you) to play a brilliant, mind-blowing hybrid RPG that will elevate the medium, inspired by a brilliant, mind-blowing film that elevated that medium. In that sense, this has the potential (the potential) to be the next Bloodlines.

When I was a kid I loved Star Wars. Loved it. It was a huge part of my life and it shaped me to who I am. And then its creator shat all over it and released three horrendous prequels that put such a huge blemish on the whole franchise that I just shake my head in sadness when I think about it. What the devs here are doing is the same thing. It's the new fad. It's licensing of movies on the old console games all over again. Can't you see that? You think they give a fuck about any o f these franchises? No. They are charlatans who are looking to make a quick buck.

  • Sometimes, sequels, reboots etc. are horrible, of course ... but not always. Will this be as bad as Highlander 2? Maybe. But maybe not! Terminator 2. Paul's Boutique. Pride and Prejudice. Ultimate Marvel. Hell, Empire Strikes Back, dude. You've made up your mind already, and I see no reason to argue about it ... me, I'm happy to wait and see what they come up with.

I totally agree with you. You know how sequels/spinoffs are done right? They treat their fans with respect. As if they're not fucking idiots. Let me cite some examples: Blade Runner Adventure Game and Mafia (aka Godfather movies). They don't walk through the player through the same shit as what happened in the movie. YOu know why? Becuas eit assumes the player isn't a fucking idiot.

  • Coppola is on board. Maybe time, age, and distance have spoiled his perspective, but if he's not angry, who are you and I that we should be angry? ... at least until the project does prove to be a travesty.

I'm going to ignore the fact that Coppola does everything to make a buck nowadays, including selling shitty wine, because that'd be too easy an argument. But I already mentioned George Lucas and Star Wars, so I'll just let that lil number stand for itself.


  • MLMarkland has a plan; he's confident, experienced, and responsive; he speaks my language; and it's fun watching him deflect criticism and return fire at detractors. Do he and his team really know what they're doing? Have I been hypnotized by his personal charm? Is this whole thing a scam? A fever dream perhaps? Maybe ... but again, what have I lost if it doesn't work out?


MLMarkland 's own past employees have gone on to blast him as an incompetent manager. You seriously think he knows wtf he's doing? Does a failed kickstarter tell you he knows what he's doing? Does the fact that he's aping the exact fucking timeline from a movie tell you he knows what he's doing? Of course not. He's a fucking hack. It's obvious at this point. Personally, I don't know why you can't see it Zombra. You seem like quite an intelligent guy. Maybe you just give people the benefit of the doubt when you shouldn't? The dude is a snake oil salesman.

Personally, i'm done being right ITT. Let the spinmaster spin. I'll be back after release or cancellation or whatever to gloat. Should be gud.
 
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Mustawd

Guest
Sorry got to break the embargo real quick here:

https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/14/14612286/apocalypse-now-video-game-kickstarter-killspace-problems

The long and troubled history of Apocalypse Now, the video game

In late January, an exciting and unlikely project showed up on the crowdfunding platform Kickstarter: a request for $900,000 to make a video game adaptation of Apocalypse Now, officially blessed by the film’s director Francis Ford Coppola. The page described the game as a survival-horror adventure with a sophisticated branching narrative, allowing players to create their own storyline for protagonist Benjamin Willard — whether that meant single-mindedly pursuing the rogue special forces agent Colonel Kurtz or sitting on a boat dropping acid. “I’ve been watching video games grow into a meaningful way to tell stories,” said Coppola in a statement, “and I’m excited to explore the possibilities for Apocalypse Now for a new platform and a new generation.”

Today, three weeks after launch, Apocalypse Now studio Erebus LLC effectively ended the underperforming Kickstarter campaign. While the campaign may officially stay open, Erebus is moving fundraising efforts to its website, seeking $5 million. The hope, according to the site, is to give Erebus complete independence from traditional video game publishers. The team leads think this will avoid problems that helped doom the project a decade ago, at a small and short-lived studio called Killspace. But former Killspace employees contend that the problems ran deeper than Apocalypse Now’s developers admit.


Killspace was launched in 2009 by two Erebus co-founders, Montgomery Markland and Larry Liberty. The roughly 40-person Los Angeles studio kept a low profile, and it completed only one game over its three-year lifespan: Yar’s Revenge, a little-known Atari remake that was released in 2011. As Markland describes it, Killspace was a casualty of the Great Recession, a small company damned by its reliance on foundering giants like Atari, which filed for bankruptcy in 2013.

To former employees, though, the picture is more complicated. After the Kickstarter launch of Apocalypse Now in January, The Vergetalked to half a dozen former Killspace developers, two of whom say they were directly involved with the original Apocalypse Nowproject. Employees — who spoke on condition of anonymity due to nondisclosure agreements — complained of thousands of dollars in unpaid wages, erratic and out-of-touch management, and financial decisions that made an already bad situation worse. One person called Killspace “the worst-run company you could possibly imagine.” Another simply referred to their time there as a “nightmare.” And all of them expressed serious misgivings about the crowdfunded Apocalypse Now.

From the beginning, Killspace was an ambitious studio, aiming to build transmedia franchises spanning games, movies, and comics. Markland and Liberty had come directly from Obsidian Entertainment: the former had worked on a canceled Aliens role-playing game there, while the latter was still acting as senior producer on Fallout: New Vegas. Markland was installed as Killswitch’s first CEO, and the two hired a mix of industry newcomers and veterans — primarily from Obsidian and the then-recently closed Pandemic Studios, developer of military action games Mercenaries and Full Spectrum Warrior. Killspace soon secured a deal with Atari for Yar’s Revenge, and with Ubisoft for the rhythm game Rocksmith. It shared an office with Emergent Game Technologies, in exchange for porting Emergent’s Gamebryo engine to consoles.

By 2010, employees say that the payments from Ubisoft and Atari were enough to cover small, dedicated groups, but Markland also wanted to grow the studio quickly by pitching as many games as possible to new publishers — which required larger, fluid teams. Four employees claimed that to do this, Killspace shuffled a substantial amount of resources from contracts to unrelated prototypes, and moved developers around on short notice to the point of leaving the main teams shorthanded. Killspace’s projects included a horror title called Sleep, a cartoonish brawler named MARM (for "Mutant, Alien, Robot, Monkey"), and a sci-fi Western called Out Here the Good Girls Die.

There was a lot of experimentation, a lot of just flat-out creativity, just all kinds of ideas being thrown out," says one former employee, praising the studio's willingness to consider game proposals from rank-and-file employees. "It was a real breath of fresh air, after working in AAA game development." The crown jewel of the projects was Apocalypse Now. Francis Ford Coppola's son Roman and writer Rob Auten connected Killspace to Coppola's studio American Zoetrope, and Killspace assigned a small team to it, putting a prototype in the works.

None of these prototypes ultimately secured publishers, though — including Apocalypse Now, which fizzled after the creation of a non-playable demo. The transmedia efforts also seemingly didn't amount to much, beyond inflating the studio's numbers with people who weren't directly working on games. "It was much too big for what it should have been," one employee tells us. "I think we had something like five or six writers."

Markland denies that any funds from one contract were moved around to buoy another project. “We kept things very compartmentalized in terms of money,” he tells The Verge. Far from a too-large team working on blue-sky projects, he describes Killspace as a studio on the verge of signing several contracts, only to see them snuffed out as publisher after publisher went bankrupt. THQ, one of the companies Markland mentions working with, filed for Chapter 11 protection in late 2012. Emergent sold off its assets at the end of 2010, ending one of Killspace’s major revenue sources. Atari officially went under in January of 2013. “We managed a game studio during the worst economic time since the Great Depression, and our game studio never went bankrupt,” he says. “We landed the airplane softly.”

Whatever the cause, funds were spread thin, especially after Ubisoft took Rocksmithproduction in-house. Former employees say they were going months without pay: one person says the company ended up owing them $3,000 in wages, and another puts the number at upwards of $9,000. “There were some people who were crashing on couches forever because they didn’t have any money,” this employee says. A third person described developers being given company equipment in lieu of money.

Markland doesn’t deny the general financial problems, but he says that Killspace management did all they could to fix them. “Atari started being late on their payments almost immediately,” he says, and the industry’s larger financial woes cut off new sources of funding. “I bet if we went back and looked we could find ten thousand, twenty thousand game developers [who] were laid off with two weeks, four weeks, six weeks notice — sometimes no notice.” He says that he and Liberty personally put a total of $200,000 toward paying employees, with Liberty mortgaging his house to do so.

Funding problems, including missed paychecks, are sadly common in the games industry. But Killspace’s management and its employees give markedly different explanations for them. Three team members, for example, say the studio’s relationship with publishers was damaged after employees leaked details about their working conditions. One employee believes a near-final deal with 505 Games had evaporated almost overnight when the publisher found Killspace wasn’t paying employees, as well as because of what he describes as “erratic” behavior by Markland. Markland says it fell through because Killspace’s key point of contact at the publisher departed. (505 Games’ parent company Digital Bros did not respond to a request for details about the deal.)

Even against the backdrop of the Great Recession, every former employee I spoke to blames Killspace’s management for the bulk of its problems, and five specifically complain about Markland’s leadership, characterizing him as abrasive, unpredictable, and unresponsive to their complaints. “We would have these big meetings, the centerpiece of which was Monty giving this big speech to everybody. And the developers around [him] were like, we can’t make games like this. We can’t just start making a game with no money. We don’t have a license, we don’t have any of this stuff,” one developer recalls. “He told us that our concerns were absurd — that this was the way to secure more money, and that we would continue forward and that the money would come. People started looking for new jobs almost immediately after that.”

This contrasts starkly with Markland’s own account of his care for employees. “Me and Larry put in our own money. Larry mortgaged his house just to help our employees. We didn’t do it because we thought the company was going to survive. We did it because it was the right thing,” he says. And as for tensions at the studio? “I would guess that the companies that went bankrupt without notice were much more unpleasant places to work than our company.”

There are also two different accounts of a major leadership change in the fall of 2010, when Markland stepped down as CEO and Liberty took over Killspace. “The plan was always for [Liberty] to come be the CEO of the company at the conclusion of Fallout: New Vegas’ development, and I would be the president and CCO,” says Markland. “And that is essentially what occurred.” But there are signs that the transition wasn’t smooth. Four sources describe Markland being effectively forced out because of problems at Killspace, and two tell The Verge that security literally barred him from the premises at one point. Markland confirms this report, but says it was the work of “one individual at the company who took some steps that were ill-advised,” and “was terminated for cause shortly thereafter.” (An interview with the full Erebus team, which includes Liberty, was scheduled and canceled twice, and questions sent to them were not returned.)

Former employees speak positively of Liberty, but they say the studio was beyond saving. “We had already lost the contract for Rocksmith. We weren’t doing any pitches for Apocalypse Now any more, or any of the other games,” says one developer. “It was pretty much, everyone that had experience making games was working on Yar’s Revenge, and anyone that didn’t have experience was gone.” After the game shipped in early 2011, Killspace’s work was effectively over. Markland says the studio didn’t formally close, but it was no longer a “going concern” by the start of 2012.

In some ways, the Apocalypse Now crowdfunding campaign seems like an overt attempt to avoid the problems of Killspace — or at least to learn from them. Erebus is described as a single-project studio, not a wide-ranging one; in fact, its name is specifically a reference to the boat in Coppola’s original film. The studio is also not supposed to be reliant on outside relationships, beyond the deal with American Zoetrope. “I think the most important lesson for any game industry creative ... is if you do not control top-line revenue, you are an employee,” says Markland. “I’d rather the people be the boss than the establishment be the boss.” And he points out that the Great Recession was a singular period for all kinds of industries, including gaming. “It was an unprecedented series of events,” he says. “I’m not sure we could have done much different.”

Markland and Liberty have both worked on successful, well-received games since Killspace’s closure: Liberty was an executive producer on DC Universe Online, and Markland has worked as a producer on Wasteland 2 and the upcoming Torment: Tides of Numenera, two highly funded and successful Kickstarter projects. But neither has been in charge of an independent studio since Killspace, a fact that has their former employees worried. “People are plunking down money to see something, and to play something, about a property that they like,” says one person. “But I think that they’re just probably about to be set up for some disappointment.”

And while it’s not beholden to publishers, Apocalypse Now is still reliant on funding sources that don’t seem ironclad. “I’m very confident that we will reach that number and more before the game is launched. I have zero doubts about that,” says Markland, when I ask about the $5 million budget. But before its closure, the game’s Kickstarter campaign had raised under $200,000 of its $900,000 goal, with only 10 days left. According to Kickstarter’s records, only five gaming projects have ever broken $5 million, including the party game Exploding Kittens and the Ouya microconsole. That’s not a direct point of comparison, because Erebus is looking to collect the total funding over a long period of time, not a month-long campaign. But it’s still difficult to know how much people will ultimately pay for Apocalypse Now, or where the money might come from if the public doesn’t contribute enough.

Whatever happens, Markland says he’s committed to getting Apocalypse Now out the door in its best possible form, regardless of funding. By way of inspiration, he calls back to the movie’s own famously troubled history, which included drug problems, grave robbing, millions of dollars in unexpected costs, and a typhoon. “The one thing I do know,” he says, “is that Francis Ford Coppola went into the jungle planning to shoot for 14 weeks — but didn’t come out of the jungle until 500 days later.”

My favorite parts are:

1. "....a dozen former Killspace developers, two of whom say they were directly involved with the original Apocalypse Now project. Employees — who spoke on condition of anonymity due to nondisclosure agreements — complained of thousands of dollars in unpaid wages, erratic and out-of-touch management, and financial decisions that made an already bad situation worse. One person called Killspace “the worst-run company you could possibly imagine.” Another simply referred to their time there as a “nightmare.” And all of them expressed serious misgivings about the crowdfunded Apocalypse Now."

2. "None of these prototypes ultimately secured publishers, though — including Apocalypse Now, which fizzled after the creation of a non-playable demo. The transmedia efforts also seemingly didn't amount to much, beyond inflating the studio's numbers with people who weren't directly working on games. 'It was much too big for what it should have been,' one employee tells us. 'I think we had something like five or six writers.' "

3. "Former employees say they were going months without pay: one person says the company ended up owing them $3,000 in wages, and another puts the number at upwards of $9,000. 'There were some people who were crashing on couches forever because they didn’t have any money,' this employee says. A third person described developers being given company equipment in lieu of money."

4. "Three team members, for example, say the studio’s relationship with publishers was damaged after employees leaked details about their working conditions. One employee believes a near-final deal with 505 Games had evaporated almost overnight when the publisher found Killspace wasn’t paying employees, as well as because of what he describes as 'erratic' behavior by Markland."


Oh the Coup de Grace..

5. " 'People are plunking down money to see something, and to play something, about a property that they like,' says one person. 'But I think that they’re just probably about to be set up for some disappointment.' "

Yah Zombra . Pretty much mate. Pretty much.

EDIT:

They are charlatans who are looking to make a quick buck. Let the spinmaster spin.

It's free to pledge.

Not sure what your point is. Are you insinuating some people charge others to pledge?
 
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MLMarkland

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Messages
1,663
Location
Malibu, CA
1) We fired some bad people almost a decade ago.

2) They are sad nearly a decade later.

3) We already had a strong relationship with American Zoetrope and it continues to this day.

4) The sad people lie in the article. No one went unpaid. California has very strong labor protection laws. Killspace was never sued, no one ever filed a complaint, Killspace never went bankrupt. Everyone was paid every dollar.

5) Atari is going bankrupt; fails to pay $250,000 in milestone payments to Killspace Entertainment.

6) Because I am a leader, I pay $100,000 of my personal money to cover employees payroll for the holidays. Even though I have no legal obligation to do so. I do it because it is the right thing to do. I do this at the peak of the economic crisis. People keep their homes because I choose to do this.

7) I pay for their children's health insurance. Because it is the right thing to do.

8) I pay for their COBRA benefits. Because it is the right thing to do.

9) 80%+ of the Killspace employees chose to work with myself or Larry in the interceding decade.

10) 2/3rds of the current Apocalypse Now team worked at Killspace.

11) Sad people who were fired lie to game journalist because they are frustrated they weren't invited to the next party.

12) Facts are better than anonymous sources.

>The Verge
>Reality

Pick one

Edit
Nice try though. It didn't work six months ago and it's not going to work today. That article is one of our top three media referrals for new pledges.

Data doesn't lie.
 
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