Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Waste of talent and time.

Compared to what he's done thus far on the outside? Eh...

You're thinking about it from his perspective, but remember that what we want as gamers is Avellone games or at least games with a good chunk of Avellone in them. I'm willing to give him another couple of years, but after that...
 

Rev

Arcane
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
1,180
How is it sad at all? He seems happier than ever. If he was still at Obsidian, he'd probably be working as a writer on PoE2 and giving feedback on Tim Cain's project. Waste of talent and time.
At least, we would have a Durance that way, with this freelancing what we're getting is AG Center and Highpool from WL2, Erritis in T:ToN, some background character talks in Prey, and stuff like that, nothing that stands out in any way and mostly just minor stuff without which the games (WL2, T:ToN, Prey, etc.) would be pretty much the same.
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
8,987
Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
Confirmation that it'll be an actual studio, not just him as a freelancer.


Oh boy... It will have the same fate as Troika.
Maybe Tim Cain and Boyarsky could talk some sense into him?

Where on earth did you get that idea? It's been 2 years and he's still bitching at Obsidian at every opportunity, like a toxic ex that won't go away. Does not sound that happy to me.

Hey moron! You and your logorrhea again?
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,656
Oh boy... It will have the same fate as Troika.
Maybe Tim Cain and Boyarsky could talk some sense into him?

it'd be structured differently than most other game studios.

I was too scared of not having the "standard trappings" of a job without realizing the drawbacks that come with that. In the digital age now, it's even more of a drawback, and I think it's more expensive for companies in the long run.

In other words, he's likely going Iron Tower, as I figured he would.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
Waste of talent and time.

Compared to what he's done thus far on the outside? Eh...

You're thinking about it from his perspective, but remember that what we want as gamers is Avellone games or at least games with a good chunk of Avellone in them. I'm willing to give him another couple of years, but after that...
Avellone games are coming, it's just a matter of time.

How is it sad at all? He seems happier than ever. If he was still at Obsidian, he'd probably be working as a writer on PoE2 and giving feedback on Tim Cain's project. Waste of talent and time.
At least, we would have a Durance that way, with this freelancing what we're getting is AG Center and Highpool from WL2, Erritis in T:ToN, some background character talks in Prey, and stuff like that, nothing that stands out in any way and mostly just minor stuff without which the games (WL2, T:ToN, Prey, etc.) would be pretty much the same.
A massively cut character he doesn't even take credit for? Pass. Also, he worked on WL2 content while still working at Obsidian, and his role on TTON was determined back in the Kickstarter, so these aren't really examples of his freelancer work.

He's lead writer on the System Shock reboot and Into the Breach, which isn't minor stuff, and certainly a step up from his work on PoE.

Oh boy... It will have the same fate as Troika.
Maybe Tim Cain and Boyarsky could talk some sense into him?
According to Tim Cain, Troika had a "socialist structure" (no hierarchy, only seniors, same salaries) for quite a while. MCA seems to be going with the opposite approach, so if his studio doesn't work out, it won't be for the same reasons as Troika. :M
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
9,938
Confirmation that it'll be an actual studio, not just him as a freelancer.


Oh boy... It will have the same fate as Troika.
:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:
What make 3 awesome games then close the studio down instead of being forced to make crap? I could get behind that. It's really a shame a kickstarter wasn't around back then troika were the one larger development company that could do cool stuff with a double A budget.
 

Bocian

Arcane
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
1,912
Oh boy... It will have the same fate as Troika.
Maybe Tim Cain and Boyarsky could talk some sense into him?

it'd be structured differently than most other game studios.

I was too scared of not having the "standard trappings" of a job without realizing the drawbacks that come with that. In the digital age now, it's even more of a drawback, and I think it's more expensive for companies in the long run.

In other words, he's likely going Iron Tower, as I figured he would.

I think you meant "Iron Cross"...
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,656
I could get behind that. It's really a shame a kickstarter wasn't around back then troika were the one larger development company that could do cool stuff with a double A budget.

Bloodlines was the only game they made even remotely close to double-A. Arcanum was made by 12 people in about 3.5 years, ToEE by less than 20 in 19 months, Bloodlines by roughly 30 in three years, comparable to the first Fallout game.
 

Sentinel

Arcane
Joined
Nov 18, 2015
Messages
6,633
Location
Ommadawn
Waste of talent and time.

Compared to what he's done thus far on the outside? Eh...

You're thinking about it from his perspective, but remember that what we want as gamers is Avellone games or at least games with a good chunk of Avellone in them. I'm willing to give him another couple of years, but after that...
Avellone games are coming, it's just a matter of time.

How is it sad at all? He seems happier than ever. If he was still at Obsidian, he'd probably be working as a writer on PoE2 and giving feedback on Tim Cain's project. Waste of talent and time.
At least, we would have a Durance that way, with this freelancing what we're getting is AG Center and Highpool from WL2, Erritis in T:ToN, some background character talks in Prey, and stuff like that, nothing that stands out in any way and mostly just minor stuff without which the games (WL2, T:ToN, Prey, etc.) would be pretty much the same.
A massively cut character he doesn't even take credit for? Pass. Also, he worked on WL2 content while still working at Obsidian, and his role on TTON was determined back in the Kickstarter, so these aren't really examples of his freelancer work.

He's lead writer on the System Shock reboot and Into the Breach, which isn't minor stuff, and certainly a step up from his work on PoE.

Oh boy... It will have the same fate as Troika.
Maybe Tim Cain and Boyarsky could talk some sense into him?
According to Tim Cain, Troika had a "socialist structure" (no hierarchy, only seniors, same salaries) for quite a while. MCA seems to be going with the opposite approach, so if his studio doesn't work out, it won't be for the same reasons as Troika. :M
I think he was referring to the fact that of the 3 Troika founders, they all loathed the business side of things and apparently none of them were very good at it.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,593
Well, I am sure Chris is happier as a freelancer. Who wouldn't be? He has a lot of projects and he has all the freedom he hadn't with a full time job, he probably makes even more.
Thing is I doubt he would have this (personal) success if not for his story with Obsiddian, I am sure there are out there lot of unknown freelancers without a name who struggle to make end meets and don't have the luxury to be picky on jobs...

And yeah I have to agree with our local Obsiddian Rep. we as gamers want games distilled with MCA essence, and this isn't happening at the moment (wasn't happening at Obsiddian either to be fair).
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,593
Avellone games are coming, it's just a matter of time.
If you mean his studio, I don't know, he doesn't strike me as guy capable of dealing with all the bullshit you get when you manage a company on your own.
And with all the jobs his status brings I don't even think there's a big incentive either.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,593
Even if he made a studio, and he became Feargus or Fargo, I don't see how that would be good for us? I'd rather have him freelancer than spending his time on how to pay wages, convince publishers, manage people and stuff like that.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,656
Even if he made a studio, and he became Feargus or Fargo, I don't see how that would be good for us? I'd rather have him freelancer than spending his time on how to pay wages, convince publishers, manage people and stuff like that.

He'd be a VD, who seems to get by fine.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,593
I'm not necessarily saying he should make a studio (although I'd kind of like to see how it would work out). I was just responding to you saying that he seemed to be content as a freelancer.

I believe it's easier said than done.

Roguey, is Josh an owner at Obsiddian?
 

PulsatingBrain

Huge and Ever-Growing
Patron
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
6,163
Location
The Centre of the Ultraworld
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
When the workload for PS:T got overwhelming, the guy knuckled down and got the job done. I think he's a resiliant person. I think he's probably taking it a little easy and deciding what to do. But if he does open a studio, I think he'll throw himself into it hard and it would be interesting to see. I also think he's humble enough to bring in help if he realised he was in way over his head. I do agree though that from where I'm standing, I kind of just want him to keep writing and designing.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
Avellone games are coming, it's just a matter of time.
If you mean his studio, I don't know, he doesn't strike me as guy capable of dealing with all the bullshit you get when you manage a company on your own.
And with all the jobs his status brings I don't even think there's a big incentive either.
I mean with or without his studio. He said he's been offered multiple opportunities to lead his own project, but couldn't take them.

Even if he made a studio, and he became Feargus or Fargo, I don't see how that would be good for us? I'd rather have him freelancer than spending his time on how to pay wages, convince publishers, manage people and stuff like that.
He could be a Swen. Or he could hire someone to be the CEO while he makes games. It depends on his ambitions for the studio. The business side is less important when you have the talent and the team is small enough. Troika lasted 7 years despite years of "socialist management", and they still had offers on the table when the studio was shut down, but they didn't want to work on lesser games just to stay afloat.
 

Rev

Arcane
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
1,180
Troika lasted 7 years despite years of "socialist management", and they still had offers on the table when the studio was shut down, but they didn't want to work on lesser games just to stay afloat.
It's quite ironic, considering that after Troika's fall they ended up doing just that: working on hack 'n' slash and MMOs and other "lesser games" for years.
 
Last edited:

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
There is an all-too-tragic human quality of sitting stoically while things you don't like happen around you, because you want to be a get-along person or conserve social capital or are just shy or proud or whatever, and then walking away when they become unbearable. If you ask someone why he left a job, it's often because the hours were too grueling, or a supervisor was treating him disrespectfully, or the tasks he was working on didn't engage his passions. But then if you ask, "Did you ever ask management to reduce your hours, let alone insist upon it? Did you ever ask to be switched onto a different task, let alone insist upon it? Etc.," the answer is usually no, what would've been the point, etc. But most of the time management would rather keep around solid people and probably would make an accommodation. These days such accommodations seem to abound in every industry. It's just that it's easier not to ask, and eventually it's more gratifying just to leave. "It should've been obvious I hated the hours -- who wouldn't? -- and they could tell I was miserable. Sorry for trusting them to do the right thing." (My sense is that this happens a lot in non-professional relationships, e.g., romantic ones, too.)

The positive spin on this is that people want to be heroes, pillars of the community (i.e., those who bear the burden of the community to hold it upright), good friends, good soldiers, etc., etc., and so they sacrifice and sacrifice until they run out of offerings, emptying their vast aquifers so everyone else can have green lawns. The negative spin is that it's easier not to assert yourself when you're unhappy because then you're purely a victim ("I left because my boss never gave me good opportunities" vs. "I left because I couldn't find a way to make the work satisfying"). "Tell me what you want to be happy" is a terrifying question because if you get what you ask for and still aren't happy, it's your own damn fault. "You should know, if you really care about me!" is an invulnerable defense, but it's kind of like Vhailor's empty armor.

I don't know if that's what happened here, but it sort of sounds like it to me. Maybe I'm naive but I just think that Avellone was such a great writer, such a famous designer, one of the few widely known celebrities in the genre, and a founder of the company -- such a persuasive advocate (if you listen to him preach in these presentations) and such a mensch that he must've had the power to get results if he said, "Guys, I'm not comfortable working here if we keep making nepotistic hires. I know these are your friends and family, but I really have to put my foot down." Or, "I really want to do more than one project with the same partners, I feel like we're not developing lasting relationships here."

I dunno. Maybe Obsidian really had intractable problems, maybe they were indifferent to the golden goose, but it's just sad to see bad blood between folks who made so many great games. I'm glad that Chris is happier with the current arrangements he's got, though. Unlike others in this thread, I think he's continuing to make big contributions, in no small part by incubating other writers he's mentoring at all these companies. I would of course like another PS:T or KOTOR2, but MOTB, for instance, seems an example of how he can help support great games without having to be at the center of them. So maybe we'll get more great games in the long run from this consigliere version instead of the workhorse writer.
 

Kev Inkline

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
5,074
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
After having read the last couple of pages, I think it is obvious we need a :wildly speculative: tag instead of/in addition to a :citation needed:
 

Prime Junta

Guest
There is an all-too-tragic human quality of sitting stoically while things you don't like happen around you, because you want to be a get-along person or conserve social capital or are just shy or proud or whatever, and then walking away when they become unbearable. If you ask someone why he left a job, it's often because the hours were too grueling, or a supervisor was treating him disrespectfully, or the tasks he was working on didn't engage his passions. But then if you ask, "Did you ever ask management to reduce your hours, let alone insist upon it? Did you ever ask to be switched onto a different task, let alone insist upon it? Etc.," the answer is usually no, what would've been the point, etc. But most of the time management would rather keep around solid people and probably would make an accommodation.

This is extremely true. I was in that kind of situation, and I did ask, and they did make accommodations, and since then I've found a role much better suited to my abilities and inclinations. It worked out well for everybody. It all depends on the workplace culture of course, but in software skilled people are scarce and most well-run companies want to keep them happy.

I.e., if you're ever dissatisfied with an aspect of your job -- even something really big, like, say, the position you're in -- but don't actively hate everything about your job and your employer (which is admittedly a perfectly healthy reaction to the capitalist mode of production), I highly recommend taking it up with the relevant person. You might be pleasantly surprised.
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
8,987
Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
I think he was referring to the fact that of the 3 Troika founders, they all loathed the business side of things and apparently none of them were very good at it.

BinGo!
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom