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System Shock 1 vs 2 - Which is better and why?

System Shock 1 vs 2 Which is better and why?


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Ash

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Objectively true, or so overwhelmingly undisputed that it may as well be objective, but it's only the last 10%. Also, SS1 gets a bit crummy as it goes on. Most later levels aren't as fleshed out as the first few. Deck 7 comes to mind. But of course the finale isn't absolute shit at least.
 

octavius

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Also lol @SS1 beating SS2 in the poll. I guess the following explains why:

"System Shock 1 because it's older so it makes me more monocled."

Actually in my case it was "I enjoyed SS1 more".
But then I'm not made of straw.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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I see it in the same way that UW was superior to Underworld II IMO. Despite the fact that UW2 addressed issues and improved just about every aspect in tech and systems departments, UW was easily the better game. Premise, narrative, delivery in execution.

SS1 was mystery, Cyberpunk, Hacking, Subterfuge against an omniscient, hidden foe, malicious tech and cyborgs
SS2 was technically superior (how could it not be?), but changed the soul of the first installment for horror scares, whacky monkeys and other shit that was a departure and does not stand up to the first.
 

Severian Silk

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The people who prefer SS2 over SS1 are the same people who prefer FO2 over FO1. For the same reasons.
 
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Ivan

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DraQ

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"SS1 was better in most, if not all, mechanical aspects it shared with SS2"

I know we've been here before, but all I remember is you repeatedly bashing the RPG systems for conflicting with realism, and subsequently immersion. And while that criticism is valid I don't neccessarily agree with it, because immersion is not the be-all-end-all and LGS understood that despite how hard they pushed for it.
The thing is only weapon skills and overall balance were bad and RPG systems didn't need to conflict with anything - since they did, they were badly implemented and made the game worse than it would be without them.

Anyway what I wanted to say is I want to know what you think is systematically or mechanically inferior about SS2 compared to SS1, aside from the RPG systems being flawed?
Damage system, use of lighting, weapons, cybernetics, explosives, puzzles, chems, level connectivity.
I probably missed a bunch of things, but there you are.
 

Ash

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Anyway what I wanted to say is I want to know what you think is systematically or mechanically inferior about SS2 compared to SS1, aside from the RPG systems being flawed?
Damage system, use of lighting, weapons, cybernetics, explosives, puzzles, chems, level connectivity.
I probably missed a bunch of things, but there you are.

"use of lighting"

In what respect? If you mean SS2 simply wasn't dark enough in areas where it may have been beneficial from a gameplay aspect, then I'd agree, but SS1 was the same except for deck 3 if I recall. If you mean SS2 was too bright in general and rooms/corridors too often appeared uniformly lit, again I'd agree, and again SS1 was the same. You get multiple ways to amplify lighting in SS1, yet it is only needed on deck 3. This gives me an idea: maybe one of the groves in the SS1 remake should be lacking lighting. That'd add meaningful diversity and shake up the gameplay, which I think is needed as my memory of the individual groves is blurred into one and the headlamp and other methods of light amplification see little use..

"cybernetics"

Which SS2 cybernetics specifically? Implants? Yeah, unbalanced and not too exciting, though still more exciting than no implants.

"explosives"

You'd like the ability to hand-throw grenades as in SS1 perhaps? I guess there was not really any reason to ditch that feature. Check out Secmod if you want it restored (can't vouch for how faithfully it was restored though, as I only used a hand grenade once).

"puzzles"

I found them to be of similar quality, only unfortunately SS2 had less. Passcode in the art terminals, the missile jumping puzzle, and the red annelid egg hunting I guess can count as one too. I enjoyed these just as much as SS1's deck 4 force bridge puzzle, the reactor bomb segment, the retinal scanner requiring a specific severed head etc, though the latter I don't recall being too logical as all severed heads looked exactly the same, so you have to go by the location the head is found? May just be my memory failing me though.

"Chems"

Yeah SS1's were just plain better compared to SS2's mostly pointless speedbooster etc.

"Level connectivity"

Hmm. Well SS1's probably made more a bit more sense from a realism standpoint, as it is more interconnected overall and has more than one bloody elevator shaft connecting the first 6 decks, but aside from that both were decent to great.

"damage system, weapons"

While SS2's are flawed, SS1 has some things that are flawed in that regard too, or not necessarily flawed, but I simply don't like them:

First half of the game's weapons are completely outclassed by the second half. None of the ammo used by the first set of weapons is used by the second set. First half of the weapon set becomes utterly irrelevant, meaning all that ammo scavenging and tactical hording was futile, except for better outcomes for the player in the first half of the game. And what if I like a weapon from the first set and decide to keep it? I'd be gimping myself.

As for the RPG systems restricting you from even equipping a gun in SS2, this has its benefits. If we could use any gun regardless of skill in combination with the ability to pick up and drop weapons as we please, we'd have access to the 16 or so weapons + their ammo pool and be a walking tank, proving you leave all guns by the elevator and switch them out when needed. Plus this restriction enforces meaningful C&C, playstyle diversity and subsequently bolsters replayability.
The walking tank issue would have been a problem in SS1 too if the game starved you of ammo as SS2 did, but as it stands you never really feel you have to employ strategics with ammo conservation providing you explore, which is questionable.
 
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DraQ

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Huh, apparently I haven't replied here beck then.
Here it goes:
:necro:
"use of lighting"

In what respect? If you mean SS2 simply wasn't dark enough in areas where it may have been beneficial from a gameplay aspect, then I'd agree, but SS1 was the same except for deck 3 if I recall. If you mean SS2 was too bright in general and rooms/corridors too often appeared uniformly lit, again I'd agree, and again SS1 was the same. You get multiple ways to amplify lighting in SS1, yet it is only needed on deck 3. This gives me an idea: maybe one of the groves in the SS1 remake should be lacking lighting. That'd add meaningful diversity and shake up the gameplay, which I think is needed as my memory of the individual groves is blurred into one and the headlamp and other methods of light amplification see little use..
Even just deck 3 would be a pretty big exception, but there were also things like unlit alcoves with cyborg assassins on higher levels, darkened sections in R&D and whatnot.

The bottom line is that darkness and tools to mitigate it were both successfully used by SS1, but not by SS2 (basketball court with fritzed fuse doesn't really count and you didn't even get a shitty flashlight, while in SS1 you got lightamp, adjustable power flashlight and dermal patch that made you see in the dark).

"cybernetics"

Which SS2 cybernetics specifically? Implants? Yeah, unbalanced and not too exciting, though still more exciting than no implants.
Meanwhile SS1 had all manners of things you plugged into your jacked-up brain that did actual stuff instead of providing boring bonuses.
Stat bonuses are boring. If your game has a system for transcending mundane reality, being cybernetic augs, magic or enchantments, you should use it to achieve something you couldn't do by just pumping stats.

"explosives"

You'd like the ability to hand-throw grenades as in SS1 perhaps? I guess there was not really any reason to ditch that feature. Check out Secmod if you want it restored (can't vouch for how faithfully it was restored though, as I only used a hand grenade once).
Throw, fiddle around with timers, set up daisy chains of various explosives as traps or means to avoid thereof (like when blowing up computer nodes). Also the sheer variety of explosives. Finally, EMP grenades looked much cooler in SS1.

"puzzles"

I found them to be of similar quality, only unfortunately SS2 had less. Passcode in the art terminals, the missile jumping puzzle, and the red annelid egg hunting I guess can count as one too. I enjoyed these just as much as SS1's deck 4 force bridge puzzle, the reactor bomb segment, the retinal scanner requiring a specific severed head etc, though the latter I don't recall being too logical as all severed heads looked exactly the same, so you have to go by the location the head is found? May just be my memory failing me though.
I meant more along the lines of minigame based puzzles - SS1 wiring and circuit tweaking was more diverse than SS2's near identical hack/repair/modify minigames.
Proper, gameplay based puzzles were similar, I guess.

"Level connectivity"

Hmm. Well SS1's probably made more a bit more sense from a realism standpoint, as it is more interconnected overall and has more than one bloody elevator shaft connecting the first 6 decks, but aside from that both were decent to great.
Not shitting on SS2 here, but individual SS1 levels were generally more connected and complex.

"damage system, weapons"

While SS2's are flawed, SS1 has some things that are flawed in that regard too, or not necessarily flawed, but I simply don't like them:

First half of the game's weapons are completely outclassed by the second half. None of the ammo used by the first set of weapons is used by the second set. First half of the weapon set becomes utterly irrelevant, meaning all that ammo scavenging and tactical hording was futile, except for better outcomes for the player in the first half of the game. And what if I like a weapon from the first set and decide to keep it? I'd be gimping myself.
OTOH SS2 damage system was predicated on a misguided desire for symmetry between different types of targets, obviating such notions as hardened targets, and in the long run wrecking weapon balance.
Whatever problems SS1 had with its weapons, it didn't have nearly as atrocious weapon balance as SS2.

As for the RPG systems restricting you from even equipping a gun in SS2, this has its benefits. If we could use any gun regardless of skill in combination with the ability to pick up and drop weapons as we please, we'd have access to the 16 or so weapons + their ammo pool and be a walking tank, proving you leave all guns by the elevator and switch them out when needed. Plus this restriction enforces meaningful C&C, playstyle diversity and subsequently bolsters replayability.
The walking tank issue would have been a problem in SS1 too if the game starved you of ammo as SS2 did, but as it stands you never really feel you have to employ strategics with ammo conservation providing you explore, which is questionable.
Whatever benefits it had, were secondary to the fact that anything that makes you think "THIS IS SUCH FUCKING BULLSHIT!" has no place in a fucking immersive survival horror, because that's the only thing SS2 successfully was:
it wasn't a good RPG, it wasn't all that good FPS and it was a pretty shitty Sci-Fi story as well, being predicated on a station module jettisoned in Sol system mysteriously crashing on Tau Ceti V decades later in a setting with no workable FTL until after the crash.
It was just so fucking ace at making you feel alone, vulnerable and mildly mindfucked on spaceship swarming with scary aliens, alien-zombies and an occasional alien-zombie-cyborg that it became a timeless classic.
And in an immersive anything grunt being unable to pick up and fire a basic firearm is just plain fucking wrong. No matter what you should be able to fire most, if not all of the weapons, reload them, and deal roughly the same damage in the process.

As for replayability, SS2 weapon skills damaged playability before any re- could be applied to it. Narrowly specialized weapons are not a bad thing in an FPS - provided you are not forced to choose between narrowly specialized weapons and really good generalist ones.
There is nothing inherently wrong with SFG, fusion cannon, EMP rifle or exotics in SS2. They would all be viable and fun to use even besides the almighty AR *IF* they didn't have to compete with it, each other and all kinds of useful skills for valuable cybermodules.
With skill system included there is little point taking max research AND max exotic to get weapon that can't even scratch half of in-game enemies, including final boss, if you can just blow everything away with AR for less than half the cost (AR is relatively easy to maintain, for example).

Weapon skills could have worked well if they instead tweaked parameters like reload time, jamming frequency, degradation rate and ability to maintain weapons of given type. A character unskilled in standard weapons could then keep an AR as powerful, but unreliable backup with use limited by durability rather than ammo which would still create different playstyle than popping everything with AR, even if lugging mostly dead-weight around would be attractive in the first place.
Viability of lugging around different weapons could also be limited by having limited ammo stack sizes (don't forget that SS1, in addition to general abundance, had hammerspace ammo and no durability system).
 

Master

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Yeah it was stupid how you couldnt fire a gun without stats but "it fitted the games oppressive and restrictive setting".:obviously:
 
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it wasn't a good RPG, it wasn't all that good FPS and it was a pretty shitty Sci-Fi story as well, being predicated on a station module jettisoned in Sol system mysteriously crashing on Tau Ceti V decades later in a setting with no workable FTL until after the crash.
It was just so fucking ace at making you feel alone, vulnerable and mildly mindfucked on spaceship swarming with scary aliens, alien-zombies and an occasional alien-zombie-cyborg that it became a timeless classic.

It would be much better in that respect if you couldn't farm the respawning enemies for unlimited ammo.

The body of the Many is usually considered a terrible part of the game, but the fact that the resources there were limited made it really the strongest part from a strictly survival horror perspective. Up to this point I could easily massacre everything with the assault rifle + grenade launcher combo, while there I reached a point where all the good ammo was almost depleted and I had to use whatever trash I had pilled up in my inventory in order to beat the area.
 

cvv

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This topic again?

It's so simple - SS2 is newer, prettier, with better graphics and controls and is therefore much more accessible than the DOS era SS1. Therefore some people prefer it.

But as for the concept, the vibe, the overall art and the impact on the genre, SS2 was just a shadow of the first game. It''s literally like 2001: Space Odyssey and it's sequel. 2010 isn't a bad flick, in fact it's better than most of the past or present Hollywood sci-fi production. But 2001 is in the Top 5 movies ever made. And that's the real difference between SS1 and SS2.

/thread
/topic
 

cvv

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SS2 has stats and SS1 doesn't.
Stats >>>>>>> no stats.
/thread

I honestly think all these arguments are just people kidding themselves. Dunno about you specifically but in my 15+ years of experience debating this topic, for the vast majority of people the REALL reason they prefer SS2 is simply because it's a newer, prettier, more accessible game and they rationalize it with better controls, stats etc.

Look, I get it. I was breast-fed with the pixel art of the early 1990s and I have absolutely no problem with looking past the technological limitations. But I can't bring myself to do that for the CGA wireframe games from the 1980s. So sure, I understand if people can't look past fighting a bunch of coloufrul pixels instead of fully fleshed out mobs.

But technical aspect aside, the groundbreaking vision and execution of SS1 is so much grander. It's a very mature, sophisticated, monocled cyberpunk, sharp and savvy as a nanoblade. In comparison SS2 is just a glorified B-movie zombie slasher with jump scares. And sure, more stats.

P.S. - the comment above me. Nuff said.
 

Master

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"it fitted the games oppressive and restrictive setting".:obviously:
How?
9rukhs.png
Well it just fits, doesnt it. The system is blunt, but so is the environment; like a wrench to the head. Constant tension, 300 000 000 miles from Earth alone on a starship, everything is out to kill you. Outside is vacuum, there is no escape.
And, no you cant fire the gun bitch! WHAM! 10 nanites used for reconstruction
And its somehow scary, you have a gun but cant use it. In a "i have no mouth cybermodules and i must scream shoot" kinda way.
But something like that wouldnt work in DX, where you can stroll around and talk to people.
 

V_K

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the REALL reason they prefer SS2 is simply because it's a newer, prettier, more accessible game
I don't think anyone considered SS2 "pretty" at release. Its low-poly models were very dated compared to contemporaries like e.g. Half-Life (or even Ultima 9). Plus I don't remember it ranking very high on accessibility axis either, something to do with shooting responsiveness and lousy optimisation IIRC. What it was praised for was atmosphere and integrating FPS and RPG gameplay - the novelty of which (at the time of release) you seem to be underestimating.
I have no issue with pixels btw - my first games were RoA and Dungeon Keeper. It took me a while to accept the top-down view of early Ultimas though. :lol:
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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It's pretty simple, you prefer System Shock (SS1) or you prefer Survival Horror (SS2). They are pretty different games.
 

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