World of Whorecraft: Battle for Asseroth

[J1M]

The game was better when those specs were treated as your best choice for different content.
ie. solo, pvp, and grouping spec.

Now the game has devolved to a point where damage types mean nothing because it is unthinkable that a frost mage might cast fireblast. Somewhere someone thought a bar full of blue icons called frostbolt, ice bolt, cold bolt, and snow blast was an interesting and good idea.

With three times as many class options to balance for each type of content, they have been homogenized, etc.

 

[Lurker47]

The game was better when those specs were treated as your best choice for different content.
ie. solo, pvp, and grouping spec.

Now the game has devolved to a point where damage types mean nothing because it is unthinkable that a frost mage might cast fireblast. Somewhere someone thought a bar full of blue icons calls frostbolt, ice bolt, cold bolt, and snow blast was an interesting and good idea.

With three times as many class options to balance for each type of content, they have been homogenized, etc.

I'm not sure if homogenization is the right word exactly but they've lost the reason for really being "specs". Some fulfill different roles like healing or tanking instead of damage and others might focus more on something like AOE instead of single-target but a good portion of the DPS classes have specs that just have a different rotation and no real reason to be a "spec" instead of a playstyle developed through your own growth.

Really, a lot of the spec playstyles should be relegated to your base skill set or incorporated into talents because there's really not much of a reason for a Fire Mage to offspec as something like an Ice Mage besides "they think it's equally"

 

[Lurker47]

*equally fun

 

[Hobo Elf]

So Argus opens up tomorrow. My body is ready for more black and green, I guess. Hopefully the next expac brings back more colorful zones.

 

[buru5]

Really, a lot of the spec playstyles should be relegated to your base skill set or incorporated into talents because there's really not much of a reason for a Fire Mage to offspec as something like an Ice Mage besides "they think it's equally"

Is it even "equal" now? When I played (stopped about 3 months ago), Arcane was better for AoE damage in certain situations and was decent at Mythic+ but was lacking in single target damage. I think Ice got a buff right before I quit and technically became the superior spec. Fire was totally nerfed at that time, still decent but worse than the rest. I'm sure a lot has changed since then. The idea of trying to make them all equal is absurd though. I think the "better at single/aoe/cleave" thing is a what they should continue focusing on. But not only that, they should replace specs with something like a skill tree like they used to have, something that allows for more unique builds that allow the player to use their imagination. Right now everything is very cookie-cutter and bland, barely an RPG and more of a MOBA where you pick a hero and they progress down a very linear path with obvious right and wrong choices.

 

[Lurker47]

Really, a lot of the spec playstyles should be relegated to your base skill set or incorporated into talents because there's really not much of a reason for a Fire Mage to offspec as something like an Ice Mage besides "they think it's equally"

Is it even "equal" now? When I played (stopped about 3 months ago), Arcane was better for AoE damage in certain situations and was decent at Mythic+ but was lacking in single target damage. I think Ice got a buff right before I quit and technically became the superior spec. Fire was totally nerfed at that time, still decent but worse than the rest. I'm sure a lot has changed since then. The idea of trying to make them all equal is absurd though. I think the "better at single/aoe/cleave" thing is a what they should continue focusing on. But not only that, they should replace specs with something like a skill tree like they used to have, something that allows for more unique builds that allow the player to use their imagination. Right now everything is very cookie-cutter and bland, barely an RPG and more of a MOBA where you pick a hero and they progress down a very linear path with obvious right and wrong choices.

It tends to cycle around a lot. Metas get completely fucked just about every patch.

Their logic for removing it was pretty good (as the game grows, the amount of skills would become unreasonable) but they focus so much on "end-game" content that it doesn't really hold up now. Replacing specs doesn't seem like a good idea since it's pretty central to the comp raiding community and it helps soften the blow if Blizzard fucks up balancing a certain path in a patch.

The old skill tree was flawed anyway (a good 60% of it was just percentage buffs to a certain stat while the new talent system has a lot more unique choices). If you don't remember, it was also completely dominated by a clear meta as well- why would a DOT class go for more direct damage instead of buffing their already powerful DOTS? If they added a system like it in, there should be a large selection of very wide trees (not long) that each have a new spell to them instead of just stats. If the amount of spells still becomes a problem, they could just make it every 5 levels or so which seems more reasonable anyway. New abilities would definitely make characters feel more diverse, easily break up the meta, and allow for some more unique synergies like those found in Vanilla WoW.

 

[buru5]

I remember the old skill tree but not very well. I played most seriously in Legion, but I did play from Burning Crusade-Cata but not nearly as seriously (didn't raid, for example). I remember there being a clear "best path" for most trees for Mage and Druid at least. Ultimately I believe the decision to streamline the specs came from a place of laziness. It would be too time consuming for their dev team to manage all the spells/abilities so they dumbed it down. Path of Exile manages to have huge customization options, and while they're not the same type of game I don't see why they couldn't do something similar. Hell, look at Diablo 2 compared to 3. Much more customization in regards to builds in 2 than 3. It feels like WoW (over time) got a similar treatment. It's clearly possible for them to add deeper class customization options while keeping the game fun. And balance? Fuck it. I feel like this constant obsession over balance (in a mostly PvM game) is detrimental anyways, as it leads to what we have now: cookie-cutter builds that are all very similar damage wise and end up feeling monotonous. And they can always tune PvP separately from PvM.

 

[Lurker47]

I remember the old skill tree but not very well. I played most seriously in Legion, but I did play from Burning Crusade-Cata but not nearly as seriously (didn't raid, for example). I remember there being a clear "best path" for most trees for Mage and Druid at least. Ultimately I believe the decision to streamline the specs came from a place of laziness. It would be too time consuming for their dev team to manage all the spells/abilities so they dumbed it down. Path of Exile manages to have huge customization options, and while they're not the same type of game I don't see why they couldn't do something similar. Hell, look at Diablo 2 compared to 3. Much more customization in regards to builds in 2 than 3. It feels like WoW (over time) got a similar treatment. It's clearly possible for them to add deeper class customization options while keeping the game fun. And balance? it. I feel like this constant obsession over balance (in a mostly PvM game) is detrimental anyways, as it leads to what we have now: cookie-cutter builds that are all very similar damage wise and end up feeling monotonous. And they can always tune PvP separately from PvM.

Well, like I said, I think my suggested idea would fix a lot of that.

I'll begrudgingly defend the existence of specs though- they're meant to help people jump in and out of roles for raiding scenarios and I think they have a right to exist. I think they should exist alongside some kind of independent skill tree though. Blizzard cares way too much about PvP and comp raid groups but they've unfortunately grown to be a very large portion of the fanbase.

 

[Aildrik]

I think I am done for this expac. I will likely do the final raid tier to experience the lore wrap up, but I am done with the incessant grinding. Interested to see where Blizzard goes with the story next. I think for most of us who started in Vanilla, interacting with the Titans and taking on Sargeras was always the distant pinnacle of the WoW universe and I feel like this expac ties that up. Not surprising, we don't "take down" Sargeras so to speak (never imagined we would kill/destroy him anyhow). Looks like Old Gods/Shadow is the next point of interest. I am expecting some sort of twist with the Naaru, or a "crap.. Sargeras was actually protecting us afterall" schtick. I also suspect Azeroth 'waking up' will be the next big awesomeness we have to look forward to.

 

[Aildrik]

I'll begrudgingly defend the existence of specs though- they're meant to help people jump in and out of roles for raiding scenarios and I think they have a right to exist. I think they should exist alongside some kind of independent skill tree though. Blizzard cares way too much about PvP and comp raid groups but they've unfortunately grown to be a very large portion of the fanbase.

Specs for some of the DPS classes have been a low point of WoW for a long time (mainly for raiding), I hate to say it. While I had my fair share of alts, Mage was always my main and the idiocy of having to re-gem gear, hang on to different sets because Fire needed crit, and Frost needed mastery/haste/whateverthecurrentpatchis was a real PITA. I appreciate what Blizzard was trying to do, I really do and I can certainly say that, especially in Vanilla, leveling as a fire mage certainly had a different feel from frost. When it came to end game raiding though (which became more and more of the game, especially in later expacs), the balance was just never there.

 

[Lurker47]

I'll begrudgingly defend the existence of specs though- they're meant to help people jump in and out of roles for raiding scenarios and I think they have a right to exist. I think they should exist alongside some kind of independent skill tree though. Blizzard cares way too much about PvP and comp raid groups but they've unfortunately grown to be a very large portion of the fanbase.

Specs for some of the DPS classes have been a low point of WoW for a long time (mainly for raiding), I hate to say it. While I had my fair share of alts, Mage was always my main and the idiocy of having to re-gem gear, hang on to different sets because Fire needed crit, and Frost needed mastery/haste/whateverthecurrentpatchis was a real PITA. I appreciate what Blizzard was trying to do, I really do and I can certainly say that, especially in Vanilla, leveling as a fire mage certainly had a different feel from frost. When it came to end game raiding though (which became more and more of the game, especially in later expacs), the balance was just never there.

Yeah, which is why I think they need to have a simplified gear system for respeccing. In general, they should focus on the base mechanics of a class rather than the gear they've been obsessing over for a good while now.

 

[Aildrik]

Yeah, which is why I think they need to have a simplified gear system for respeccing. In general, they should focus on the base mechanics of a class rather than the gear they've been obsessing over for a good while now.

Right. It may have been discussed already, but why not just get rid of the stats altogether and abstract it away as some sort of generic power level. At the end of the day, all players really care about is that they have a way to develop their character and one of the main ways is through better gear. The moment you get stuck in the weeds trying to decide "shit, which robe is actually an upgrade", well... I think the system has failed. Granted, it would likely change how they itemize bosses but honestly I hate having to look at 3 different gloves from one raid tier and figure out which one to use.

 

[Hoaxmetal]

I hate having to look at 3 different gloves from one raid tier and figure out which one to use

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Aildrik]

I hate having to look at 3 different gloves from one raid tier and figure out which one to use

This is why we can't have nice things.

What is why we can't have nice things? Lurker made a good point, which is that changing specs shouldn't be so hampered by itemization. Obviously for classes that switch between tanking, healing, dps it is even worse. But honestly, speaking as a cloth DPS, you may have 2-3 different head slot items that drop in a raid tier. Having to run your gear through AskMrRobot or some other parsing engine is like tacking a meta game on top of the game. Its an extra layer that feels like it shouldn't be there. You can make an argument that more options allows for more play styles but in the end, no matter how much Blizzard tried to avoid it, there was invariably a poor spec, badly itemized gear, and constant tweaking of skills/stats that made the game unnecessarily tedious for raiders.

 

[Lurker47]

Yeah, which is why I think they need to have a simplified gear system for respeccing. In general, they should focus on the base mechanics of a class rather than the gear they've been obsessing over for a good while now.

Right. It may have been discussed already, but why not just get rid of the stats altogether and abstract it away as some sort of generic power level. At the end of the day, all players really care about is that they have a way to develop their character and one of the main ways is through better gear. The moment you get stuck in the weeds trying to decide "shit, which robe is actually an upgrade", well... I think the system has failed. Granted, it would likely change how they itemize bosses but honestly I hate having to look at 3 different gloves from one raid tier and figure out which one to use.

I hate having to look at 3 different gloves from one raid tier and figure out which one to use

This is why we can't have nice things.

What is why we can't have nice things? Lurker made a good point, which is that changing specs shouldn't be so hampered by itemization. Obviously for classes that switch between tanking, healing, dps it is even worse. But honestly, speaking as a cloth DPS, you may have 2-3 different head slot items that drop in a raid tier. Having to run your gear through AskMrRobot or some other parsing engine is like tacking a meta game on top of the game. Its an extra layer that feels like it shouldn't be there. You can make an argument that more options allows for more play styles but in the end, no matter how much Blizzard tried to avoid it, there was invariably a poor spec, badly itemized gear, and constant tweaking of skills/stats that made the game unnecessarily tedious for raiders.

I think that's only a good idea if you keep the spec system and added in a new skill system. At this point, choices in gear is one of the few ways to customize your character to even a tiny degree.

 

[Aildrik]

Just to be clear, are you talking stat choices, cosmetic appearance or both?

 

[Lurker47]

Just to be clear, are you talking stat choices, cosmetic appearance or both?

Both.

 

[Revenant]

So, "sandbox content" on Argus means just more world quests. Okay. At least there won't be flying on Argus unlike Tanaan Jungle or Broken Shore, so there will be some world PvP to be had for the remainder of the expansion.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Yeah but why do you want it when the PvP is gay as shit right now? Unless you play a tank, I guess.

 

[Revenant]

Blood DK main here so I've got nothing to complain about really.

 

[Metro]

I've wanted to see Argus in-game for the longest time but that interest waned over the years. It's just more of the same. There's too many layers of character progression that amount to little more than mindless tedium.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I've wanted to see Argus in-game for the longest time but that interest waned over the years. It's just more of the same. There's too many layers of character progression that amount to little more than mindless tedium.

There's nothing much to see on Argus anyway.

 

[Revenant]

I've wanted to see Argus in-game for the longest time but that interest waned over the years. It's just more of the same. There's too many layers of character progression that amount to little more than mindless tedium.

There's nothing much to see on Argus anyway.

Exactly, and even the world quests are degenerate there - every few hours, you get the same kind of "kill this HP-bloated demon" world quest which gets old really, really fast. I'm already completely bored of Argus and it hasn't even been a week since release. If you're currently unsubbed, there is zero reason to resub unless you care about the story, which is time gated anyway so you'll probably be able to experience it all at once later, like it was with the Legionfall campaign on the Broken Shore.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I've wanted to see Argus in-game for the longest time but that interest waned over the years. It's just more of the same. There's too many layers of character progression that amount to little more than mindless tedium.

There's nothing much to see on Argus anyway.

Exactly, and even the world quests are degenerate there - every few hours, you get the same kind of "kill this HP-bloated demon" world quest which gets old really, really fast. I'm already completely bored of Argus and it hasn't even been a week since release. If you're currently unsubbed, there is zero reason to resub unless you care about the story, which is time gated anyway so you'll probably be able to experience it all at once later, like it was with the Legionfall campaign on the Broken Shore.

Yup. You get 1 hour worth of new """content""" each week. First week consisted of kill X amount of Y mobs and some collection quests. Usual boring shit. Then you did class order hall missions to unlock new harder types of class order hall missions that take place on Argus. Exciting. Only reason I haven't unsubbed is because I'm enjoying leveling alts.

 

[Revenant]

Yeah, leveling alts must be a blast now that heirlooms work up to level 110. However, is leveling in Legion dungeons an option now? I can't think of slogging through the Legion leveling zones once more after getting 4 characters to lvl 110.