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Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
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Pathfinder: Wrath
Nobody cares about an artist's expression of him/herself. That's such an old, tired and untrue cliche which makes art feel ephemeral, inconsequential and unsubstantial. There's nothing wrong with what Bieber does, it's the squeaking of the turning wheels of capitalism. Hating on him or pop culture in general is a waste of time.
 

Jimmious

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Messages
5,132
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I disagree 100% with the first two sentences and the first half of the third, after that I agree 100%.
 

the_shadow

Arcane
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Messages
1,179
Let's keep it simple: Which criticism applied to PoE can't be applied to the IE games BG and IWD?

Uhm, I already listed the differences? The delivery and most of the writing is worse.

The writing is worse than IWD? That's rather hard to determine given how little writing there is in both Icewind Dale games, particularly the first one.

The 3D models are an eye-sore in the worst way, there is no unified art direction.

It's better than NWN. It doesn't come close to the art in the IE games, but I've never seen another cRPG that does.

The dungeons are bland (I can't stress this enough, PoE's dungeons are soul-crushingly bad) and samey compared to IWD (BG is a different beast, but Durlag's Tower is better than everything in PoE).

I do agree that there is a consistent theme to the dungeons (much as there is with Morrowind), but I never found the Engwithian ruins to be bland *shrug*.

The combat system is absolute trash compared to both after around 9th-10th lvl, too fast and clusterfucky, too frontloaded, the outcome is decided in the first 5 seconds, you use the same spells and abilities each ti
me, the ones you don't use are garbage.

Uhhh, that's the same for high level combat in IE games and MoTB, which is why I find starting campaigns with high level parties (such as in MoTB) unsatisfying. Most battles in MoTB are easily won with a casting of Sunburst, and from then on it's just a mop up operation. Jeez, you even have an epic spell that auto-kills enemies who fail their saves, and takes away half of their HP if they do, and it bypasses magic resistance. But that's just overkill.

Terrible encounter design in the base game and up to almost the entirety of WM1.

Do you have examples of good encounter design from IE games?

The companions might as well not exist, they are both wet rags and inconsequential, offering nothing that can't be done better by adventurers.

That argument applies to the companions to Baldur's Gate 1, who are poorly optimized and offer almost nothing in the way of dialogue. At least the companions in PoE are inoffensive, while having somewhat interesting backstories that add to the plot and over-arching themes of the game.

The maps are even samey-er than BG1 with even fewer things to see,

No way. Apart from Baldur's Gate itself, most of the maps are barren, with the occasional special encounter in-between.


There is no variety in terms of character styles, all classes play the same in the same roles, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Tank (I'm generous), Support. It's not-BG1 in the worst possible ways.

That's demonstrably false, given all the character builds for each class that have been posted all over the web.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Art has two components: what the artist put into it, and what you put into it when experiencing it. There will be great art that leaves you cold because for whatever reason you won't be able to put anything into it, and there will be garbage that you'll find profoundly moving due to some weird kink in your mind or your experience.

But art will still be art, and garbage will still be garbage.
 
Joined
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Oh my fucking God fuck off all of you. If I wanted to engage in a Philosophy of Art 101 seminar I would sign up at one of the city colleges.

Fuck, I think I liked PoE more than most Codexers, but at a certain point: WHO FUCKING CARES IF LACRYMAS DOESN'T LIKE THE GAME?!!!!

How ironic that the image the PoE kickstarter was teased with turned out to be emblematic of this thread:

Wiki-background

Also Lacrymas: I appreciate the degree of thought and attention you clearly give to each of your posts, but (speaking as someone who worked on academic advisory boards for nearly a decade) you are overwriting your shit. It makes them come off as incoherent and garbled diatribes based on pretty circular logic. There are nuggets of truth in each argument you present, but my sense is that you get very bogged down in the minutiae of syntax. Brevity is your friend. I am not trying to be a dick; I appreciate your posts, and want you to continue posting, but goddamn brah you gotta tone it down.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Art has two components: what the artist put into it, and what you put into it when experiencing it. There will be great art that leaves you cold because for whatever reason you won't be able to put anything into it, and there will be garbage that you'll find profoundly moving due to some weird kink in your mind or your experience.

But art will still be art, and garbage will still be garbage.

dis is such simple truth y ppl not recognize
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
So, maybe the lesson PoE taught us was "the IE games were just as bad most of the time" and that was Sawyer's artistic message to the audience. :M
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Pathfinder: Wrath
The writing is worse than IWD? That's rather hard to determine given how little writing there is in both Icewind Dale games, particularly the first one.

No, it's not. IWD doesn't waste your time with endless "dialogues" and descriptions that go nowhere. IWD is much more coherent as a result. The best thing you can do in PoE is leave every conversation the moment such option presents itself, you literally don't lose anything by doing this. The purple prose is pretty terrible as well, if you can't do what Shelley (before anyone jumps on this, he's just an example), who I posted before, does then don't do it at all, it's a waste of time for both you and the audience (which is worse). You aren't a part of the conversation in PoE, you are being talked TO, not WITH. This is exacerbated by the sheer amount of bullshit they spew in your face. I had a friend play through PoE's (and BG1's) prologues and he said the exact same thing.

It's better than NWN. It doesn't come close to the art in the IE games, but I've never seen another cRPG that does.

No, it's not better than NWN in the context of what I'm talking about. Outside of NWN's aesthetic being endlessly charming, the models don't look like they are from another game.

I do agree that there is a consistent theme to the dungeons (much as there is with Morrowind), but I never found the Engwithian ruins to be bland *shrug*.

It's not only about the theme, even if Engwithan ruins are the predominant dungeons. It's about what you can do in them. Only Raedric's has more complex design, all the others are filled with the same kinds of copy pasted fights (it was worse on release) with nothing much else to do. The vast majority of them have no NPCs, no story, no extra quests, no puzzles, only token interaction with the environment (the most significant one being the blood pool), if any.

Uhhh, that's the same for high level combat in IE games and MoTB, which is why I find starting campaigns with high level parties (such as in MoTB) unsatisfying. Most battles in MoTB are easily won with a casting of Sunburst, and from then on it's just a mop up operation. Jeez, you even have an epic spell that auto-kills enemies who fail their saves, and takes away half of their HP if they do, and it bypasses magic resistance. But that's just overkill.

It only gets ridiculous at the epic levels, not 10th, and even then it depends on how the campaign is built. Yeah, Vampiric Feast is pretty OP. Like I said, MotB doesn't offer just combat. PoE's is still too fast and clusterfucky, too frontloaded and the outcome is decided in the first 5-10 seconds. I also think recovery is not good design and a lot of the problems stem from it and the way combat is distributed across time.

Do you have examples of good encounter design from IE games?

It actually depends on the AI. With SCS all major fights are pretty brutal in both BGs. Outside of that, in BG1 alone you have the first mage fight in the "mage prison", pretty much the entirety of the lower levels in Durlag's Tower except the Demon Knight because he drops too fast, the Red Wizard encounter, the main bandit tent fight, the spider fight with Irenicus' ex, the last werewolf fight on werewolf island, and maybe Sarevok, but he can be abused by focusing on him.

That argument applies to the companions to Baldur's Gate 1, who are poorly optimized and offer almost nothing in the way of dialogue. At least the companions in PoE are inoffensive, while having somewhat interesting backstories that add to the plot and over-arching themes of the game.

They aren't "poorly optimized", the evil companions are more powerful than the PC. Coran is the best archer in the game, Kivan and even Khalid can also shoot pretty well, Imoen is great when dualed to mage, Jaheira is a fighter/druid, Minsc has 18/93 STR, even Anora, the least used companion, has 19 DEX (also lucky rabbit's foot, but it needs a fix to work). Even if you find a companion's stat not up to par, you can gift them some items to automatically improve them. No idea where you are getting that "poorly optimized" thing. The fact that they don't have much dialogue is the reason they are better! They only have enough quips, and a quest here and there, to characterize them and for them to feel like characters. They don't whine and moan, and bitch throughout the whole thing. PoE's companions are boring and uninteresting people, with the exception of Durance and maybe GM, and no, it's not because MCA wrote them. The more they open their mouths the blander they become. BG1 doesn't have this problem.

No way. Apart from Baldur's Gate itself, most of the maps are barren, with the occasional special encounter in-between.

They are more, bigger and more visually interesting, that's enough. In comparison, PoE's are ridiculously small and lacking things to see.

That's demonstrably false, given all the character builds for each class that have been posted all over the web.

You seem to be confusing build variety with the way a character plays. Yes, I've freely admitted that PoE has good character building, but all the builds you can make play in 1, or a combination of, 4 archetypes - Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Tank (again, being generous), Support. My priest of Skaen plays in the exact same way as my barbarian, even down to the sneak attacks, there is no reason not to pick those up. My priest also has AoE on melee attacks due to the spellstriking enchantments on the stilettos. My ranged cipher plays in the exact same way as my ranger (rangers actually have Powder Burns, which makes them more interesting, but it's a specific feat). All of them have Barbarian rage, because why wouldn't they?
 

the_shadow

Arcane
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
1,179
The writing is worse than IWD? That's rather hard to determine given how little writing there is in both Icewind Dale games, particularly the first one.

No, it's not. IWD doesn't waste your time with endless "dialogues" and descriptions that go nowhere. IWD is much more coherent as a result.

IWD has just the bare bones of dialogue and lore to provide you with an excuse to go dungeon crawling, which is understandable since it's simply building on a pre-established setting and wasn't trying to be Planescape: Torment. On the other hand, PoE is world building from scratch, and it's also trying to be a bit more than just a hack and slash experience. So claiming that IWD has better writing because of brevity is unfair. It's a bit like claiming that 'Clifford the Big Red Dog' has better writing than 'Lord of the Rings' because it has 'fewer endless dialogues' and 'descriptions that go nowhere'

The best thing you can do in PoE is leave every conversation the moment such option presents itself, you literally don't lose anything by doing this.

That depends what you want from a game, I guess. I'm not a big fan of expository dialogue and lore, but having either doesn't mean that the writing is 'worse'. For example, the writing in Planescape: Torment was brilliant, even though the game could have been perfectly fine without half of the lore.

You aren't a part of the conversation in PoE, you are being talked TO, not WITH.

Conversation is far more dynamic in PoE than in Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale.

No, it's not better than NWN in the context of what I'm talking about. Outside of NWN's aesthetic being endlessly charming,

?!?!

the models don't look like they are from another game.

No idea why you think PoE models look like they are from another game, whereas the ones for NWN don't. Is it because the ones in NWN are ugly and blocky, so they match the ugly and blocky background?

It's not only about the theme, even if Engwithan ruins are the predominant dungeons. It's about what you can do in them. Only Raedric's has more complex design, all the others are filled with the same kinds of copy pasted fights (it was worse on release) with nothing much else to do. The vast majority of them have no NPCs, no story, no extra quests, no puzzles, only token interaction with the environment (the most significant one being the blood pool), if any.

What version of PoE did you play? And your criticisms could easily be directed at Icewind Dale 1 and Baldur's Gate 1 (although I can't comment on ToTSC). Icewind Dale II did have some puzzles, particularly the Ice Temple and the cursed forest, and they were both *horrible*.

It only gets ridiculous at the epic levels, not 10th, and even then it depends on how the campaign is built.

And you start at close to epic levels in MoTB. How a battle goes is decided in the first 10 seconds, and it's usually in your favour if you use the numerous OP'ed abilities/spells that are available. So you're giving a pass to MoTB for a criticism that only applies to the end portion of PoE (before the level cap was raised).


It actually depends on the AI. With SCS all major fights are pretty brutal in both BGs. Outside of that, in BG1 alone you have the first mage fight in the "mage prison", pretty much the entirety of the lower levels in Durlag's Tower except the Demon Knight because he drops too fast, the Red Wizard encounter, the main bandit tent fight, the spider fight with Irenicus' ex, the last werewolf fight on werewolf island, and maybe Sarevok, but he can be abused by focusing on him.

Why do you think they are examples of good combat encounters?

They aren't "poorly optimized", the evil companions are more powerful than the PC. Coran is the best archer in the game, Kivan and even Khalid can also shoot pretty well, Imoen is great when dualed to mage, Jaheira is a fighter/druid, Minsc has 18/93 STR, even Anora, the least used companion, has 19 DEX (also lucky rabbit's foot, but it needs a fix to work).

You can get a far better stat distribution by simply rolling your own characters and using dump stats.

The fact that they don't have much dialogue is the reason they are better! They only have enough quips, and a quest here and there, to characterize them and for them to feel like characters. They don't whine and moan, and bitch throughout the whole thing. PoE's companions are boring and uninteresting people, with the exception of Durance and maybe GM, and no, it's not because MCA wrote them. The more they open their mouths the blander they become. BG1 doesn't have this problem.

The companions in BG1 feel like cardboard cut-outs, with the occasional banter thrown in to give the illusion that they are more than that. PoE companions aren't particularly interesting compared to the main plot, but they do feel like real people, rather than RPG stereotypes or attributes and stats with a soundbite. And their problems, while small fry in the grand scheme of things, do relate to the over-arching themes of the game.

They are more, bigger and more visually interesting, that's enough. In comparison, PoE's are ridiculously small and lacking things to see.

Miles of empty grassland or icy tundra isn't more visually interesting than what PoE has to offer.

You seem to be confusing build variety with the way a character plays. Yes, I've freely admitted that PoE has good character building, but all the builds you can make play in 1, or a combination of, 4 archetypes - Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Tank (again, being generous), Support.

And IWD/NWN/BG don't?
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,000
Pathfinder: Wrath
Too much stuff to quote, so I won't bother

1. IWD has enough writing. PoE's is bad. Lord of the Ring was the first secondary world ever built, Tolkien was a genius, the guys at Obsidian aren't.
2. Having the majority of expository dialogue and lore have no bearing on the game is bad writing in a video game.
3. No, conversations aren't more dynamic. You ask questions and you are lectured to. That's the majority of "dialogues".
4. ALL dungeons in BG and IWD have at least a story attached to them, no idea what you are on.
5. They can't be decided in the first 10 seconds because a round is 6 seconds, making it impossible to cast more than 2 spells in that time and only with Quicken, you can't Quicken Epic Spells. Even if you stack Vampiric Feasts, the DC is pretty low and many of the mobs resist it and you can't kill them when they save because it takes away half of remaining HP, not max HP. It is OP, though.
6. They are different from regular encounters and provide different challenges, especially the mage battles, all encounters in the majority of PoE are the same. Even massive shills like Prima Junta agree on this.
7. No, you can't get a better stat distribution for the evil companions. They are simply better than the PC. Coran also has illegal mastery in bows. The other companions are good for what they are, as opposed to PoE where they have barely enough stats to do their jobs.
8. The majority of "real people" are boring. That isn't a compliment in writing.
9. Yes, they do offer more visual flair. Check your eyeballs.
10. Yes, they don't.

Really, you can't expect more than this, it seems like you haven't even played the IE games or NWN for you to spout such statements. You also don't address my points in any significant way "hurr-durr, the IE vidya gaems are the same lol" isn't a good argument, it also isn't true. The answer to your arguments are actually in the sentences you quote, you are simply repeating yourself.
 
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Iznaliu

Arbiter
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Apr 28, 2016
Messages
3,686
6. They are different from regular encounters and provide different challenges, especially the mage battles, all encounters in the majority of PoE are the same. Even massive shills like Prima Junta agree on this.

A few exceptional encounters don't mean the majority aren't rinse-and-repeat.
 

the_shadow

Arcane
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
1,179
Too much stuff to quote, so I won't bother

1. IWD has enough writing. PoE's is bad. Lord of the Ring was the first secondary world ever built, Tolkien was a genius, the guys at Obsidian aren't.
2. Having the majority of expository dialogue and lore have no bearing on the game is bad writing in a video game.
3. No, conversations aren't more dynamic. You ask questions and you are lectured to. That's the majority of "dialogues".
4. ALL dungeons in BG and IWD have at least a story attached to them, no idea what you are on.
5. They can't be decided in the first 10 seconds because a round is 6 seconds, making it impossible to cast more than 2 spells in that time and only with Quicken, you can't Quicken Epic Spells. Even if you stack Vampiric Feasts, the DC is pretty low and many of the mobs resist it and you can't kill them when they save because it takes away half of remaining HP, not max HP. It is OP, though.
6. They are different from regular encounters and provide different challenges, especially the mage battles, all encounters in the majority of PoE are the same. Even massive shills like Prima Junta agree on this.
7. No, you can't get a better stat distribution for the evil companions. They are simply better than the PC. Coran also has illegal mastery in bows. The other companions are good for what they are, as opposed to PoE where they have barely enough stats to do their jobs.
8. The majority of "real people" are boring. That isn't a compliment in writing.
9. Yes, they do offer more visual flair. Check your eyeballs.
10. Yes, they don't.

Really, you can't expect more than this, it seems like you haven't even played the IE games or NWN for you to spout such statements. You also don't address my points in any significant way "hurr-durr, the IE vidya gaems are the same lol" isn't a good argument, it also isn't true. The answer to your arguments are actually in the sentences you quote, you are simply repeating yourself.
[/quote]

1+2. IWD had enough writing for what it was trying to be. PoE wasn't attempting to be the same type of game as IWD (ie. a pure dungeon crawler based off an established setting) which is why it had more dialogue and in-game descriptions. Claiming that IWD's brevity of dialogue/descriptions is evidence of better writing is like trying to compare apples with oranges.

3. More outcomes are available via dialogue in PoE than IWD 1 or 2. IWD is little more than a sausage chain of maps with the bare minimum of dialogue to provide you with an excuse to go dungeon crawling. And that's fine, because IWD aims to be a hack and slash dungeon crawler.

4. So do the ones in PoE, so I'm not exactly sure how this is a mark for BG/IWD and a mark against PoE.

5. Yes, combat encounters are decided in the first 10 seconds of MoTB, almost always in your favour since you have high/epic level spells and feats. After a single casting of Sunburst or Vampiric Feast it's just a mop-up operation. I'd argue that the same applies to high level BG2.

6. There are different challenges available in PoE, and the combat on higher difficulties is far more challenging than anything IE games have to offer.

7. You can get better stat distribution from pre-made characters. Having 20 in Dex isn't exactly a great trade off for a low strength and constitution, unless you mitigate it with strength boosting items, and that deprives other party members of strength boosting items. It may be a fair trade-off depending on how you want to play a character, though.

8. I pointed out that the characters and their problems are 'boring' in comparison to the main overarching storyline (ie. The Gods being false + the theft of souls). That's not a mark of bad writing, it's a mark of realistic writing. Not every party member needs to be tied into the main plot and constantly interject with obnoxious exposition.

9. My eyeballs work fine. Miles of flat grassland and trees in Baldur's Gate 1 don't offer more visual flare than what PoE offers.

10. Provide examples.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
all encounters in the majority of PoE are the same. Even massive shills like Prima Junta agree on this

Mmno.

There are too many trash mobs and too many repetitive fights in it for sure. But there is a long way from that to "all encounters in the majority of PoE are the same."
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,000
Pathfinder: Wrath
1+2. IWD had enough writing for what it was trying to be. PoE wasn't attempting to be the same type of game as IWD (ie. a pure dungeon crawler based off an established setting) which is why it had more dialogue and in-game descriptions. Claiming that IWD's brevity of dialogue/descriptions is evidence of better writing is like trying to compare apples with oranges.

3. More outcomes are available via dialogue in PoE than IWD 1 or 2. IWD is little more than a sausage chain of maps with the bare minimum of dialogue to provide you with an excuse to go dungeon crawling. And that's fine, because IWD aims to be a hack and slash dungeon crawler.

4. So do the ones in PoE, so I'm not exactly sure how this is a mark for BG/IWD and a mark against PoE.

5. Yes, combat encounters are decided in the first 10 seconds of MoTB, almost always in your favour since you have high/epic level spells and feats. After a single casting of Sunburst or Vampiric Feast it's just a mop-up operation. I'd argue that the same applies to high level BG2.

6. There are different challenges available in PoE, and the combat on higher difficulties is far more challenging than anything IE games have to offer.

7. You can get better stat distribution from pre-made characters. Having 20 in Dex isn't exactly a great trade off for a low strength and constitution, unless you mitigate it with strength boosting items, and that deprives other party members of strength boosting items. It may be a fair trade-off depending on how you want to play a character, though.

8. I pointed out that the characters and their problems are 'boring' in comparison to the main overarching storyline (ie. The Gods being false + the theft of souls). That's not a mark of bad writing, it's a mark of realistic writing. Not every party member needs to be tied into the main plot and constantly interject with obnoxious exposition.

9. My eyeballs work fine. Miles of flat grassland and trees in Baldur's Gate 1 don't offer more visual flare than what PoE offers.

10. Provide examples.

1-3 You are the one who keeps bringing up IWD, I'm painfully aware they weren't trying to be like it. The difference, however, is that IWD's writing is enough, while PoE's is excessive. That's the caveat and why IWD's writing beats PoE's. And that's only if we are comparing the intentions of both. Doing otherwise is kooky, but you brought it up.

4. Not really. What's the story in Cliaban Rilag? Lle a Rhemen? Cilant Lis? I'd argue that Cilant Lis is the best designed dungeon outside of Raedric's in the base game. The Copperlane Catacombs? Most of Od Nua? They were designed as combat arenas first and part of the world third or fifth. Token quests which could've been done everywhere else is all you get. Yeah, Ulcaster's School and Firewine Bridge (I don't count Thieves' Maze, it's shit) are pretty basic as well, but the 2 worst dungeons in BG1 are equivalent to the majority of PoE's.

5. And, like I said, Vampiric Feast is OP. I also said that combat is not the only thing MotB offers, as opposed to PoE. And still, it's not in the first 10 seconds because Vampiric Feast only takes half of their HP and they have a lot, you are also not guaranteed to hit everyone with it AND it's an AoE centered around yourself, so you have to wade into the thick of things to hit as many enemies. 1 round is 6 seconds, you can't cast anything else if you use Vampiric Feast. You are also not guaranteed to have it, you might pick some other epic feats. Sunburst only works on undead.

6. Have you played BG with SCS? You won't be spouting such things if you have. The difficulty on PotD is very cheap, relying on overwhelming you with enemies and numbers. At least the whole base game and WM1. Your strategy doesn't change throughout, at first you create choke points, and that's ALL you do, and after your cipher gets Amplified Wave it's all over. The only fight before I had Amplified Wave that I had to change my choke point routine was the elemental level of Od Nua, I had to widen the choke point to allow more enemies in for the slaughter.

7. You can get useless stat distribution with pre-made characters. Also, pre-made characters aren't a part of BG, it requires a multi-player workaround. Coran has 20 DEX AND illegal mastery in bows, making it impossible for a pre-made Fighter/Rogue to do more dmg than him. Viconia has 19 DEX AND 50% magic reduction, off-setting her lack of STR with gauntlets of STR. Kagain has illegal CON, off-setting his lack of DEX with the gauntlets of DEX. Edwin is the best mage in the game bar none, you can't create a better mage than him whatever you do.

8. Oh, the overarching plot is nonsensical, that's worse than being boring, but the characters are boring in of themselves, not related to it. They don't change or become different people by the end, don't offer deeper insight into who they are or grow your relationship. The moment you meet them is the moment you know everything you can know about them. The ONLY exception, outside of Durance and GM, is Aloth's confession that he was a part of the Leaden Key, but that doesn't matter at all.

9. Your eyeballs don't work, BG's aren't vast swaths of only forests and grass. You have other shit in them, go play the game.

10. Thief/Cleric plays very differently than Fighter/Thief. Go play the game.


Mmno.

There are too many trash mobs and too many repetitive fights in it for sure. But there is a long way from that to "all encounters in the majority of PoE are the same."

You are lying. The only different fight in the entire base game (and I'd argue the majority of WM1) is the Adra Dragon (and maybe Sky Dragon and Alpine Dragon, but their fights are basically identical, just with more numbers on top in Alpine's case) and that's because it was made with the intention to cheaply fuck you up. Everything else is a variation of one formula, either with less or more enemies of the types you are already sick of, that you handle the same way each and every time.
 
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Prime Junta

Guest
You are lying.

Temper temper.

I am not. I do not believe, and have not believed, nor said, that all encounters in the majority of PoE are the same. Your claim was about my opinion, not about the game, and I was setting you straight about that.

I have said that the game has too many trash mobs and too many repetitive fights. This was somewhat but IMO not sufficiently addressed in patch 3.0.

As to the game itself, you're just sliding further into hysteria. A fight against a Cean Gwla and a bunch of Spectres is not like a fight against an ogre druid and a bunch of ogres, which is not like a fight against an adragan and a bunch of blights. If you claim that they are, either you're lying, or your definition of "the same" is broad to the point of absurdity.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
18,000
Pathfinder: Wrath
They are, though, you handle ALL of those examples in the same way. It doesn't matter that the ogre druid is using insect swarm while the adragans use lightning storm, that's just window dressing when all you do it create choke points and bombard them with damage. You don't have to even do that after getting high level wizard spells or Amplified Wave.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
No wonder you hated it -- you just found one tactic that sorta kinda worked and then ground it with reload abuse until you won.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
18,000
Pathfinder: Wrath
The only fights I had to reload more than once (most of the fights I one-shot either way) are the adragan fight in the elemental level of Od Nua, the Gleaming Society and the Lagufaeth Broodmothers (which I one-shot when I used DAoM pots).
 

Prime Junta

Guest
The only fights I had to reload more than once are the adragan fight in the elemental level of Od Nua, the Gleaming Society and the Lagufaeth Broodmothers (which I one-shot when I used DAoM pots).

But they were just the same as the others. Gotcha.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,000
Pathfinder: Wrath
Yes, they actually were. The only difference with the adragan fight is that I had to widen the choke point, while in the Gleaming Society I had to CREATE a choke point so I don't get overwhelmed by their numbers. I did mention that it's the majority of fights in WM1, not all, so yeah, the lagufaeth mothers were a bitch before I used DAoM pots.
 

Hyperion

Arcane
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Messages
2,120
Creating your own choke points using interesting formations, tactics, or geography is a bad thing now?

If you're fighting every enemy the same, you're clearly just brute forcing your way through, and ignoring enemy defenses. Using spells that target Will and Reflex are going to do much better against Ogres than against a Cean Gwla. Broodmothers aren't the main problems at the start of an encounter. The rogue fuckers that open with focused Blinding Strikes are. Broodmothers can be CC'd, and left alive while you kill the ones who are actually dangerous. By the time your CC wears off, most of the threats should be neutralized, which will let you either reapply CC, or just obliterate them with things like having Eder Charge, then Knockdown.

Protip: Get the ring for Aloth that gives extra Level 4 Wizard Spellcasts per day. The Rape Tentacle spell pretty much puts the numbers in your favor every single time. You get 3 stationary meat shields with more attack range than a reach weapon, that hit medium armored enemies for 40 - 50. And let's not even start with Ninagauth's Shadowflame. Jesus, that spell is insane.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,000
Pathfinder: Wrath
When that is all you do the whole game before getting the OP AoEs, yeah, it is. I also don't have a Wizard on my team and when I fought the Broodmothers my Cipher neither had Stormcaller for fast Focus gain nor very good CC, I couldn't CC them all before they Minor Avatar'd. Since everyone is built like a glass cannon, except the paladin, because why wouldn't they be, maybe I am brute forcing it, but is that my fault (i.e. I'm not playing the game "properly" or "correctly") or the game's? The mobs can't counter my damage, soooo? Also, I am paying attention to the defenses, but since the only "true" offensive spellcaster I have is the Cipher I don't really care that much about them, apart from Deflection.
 
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Prime Junta

Guest
You created an offbeat party: one that's extremely strong on defence and buffs, and weak on offence and CC. That severely limits your tactical options. Further, you didn't show much initiative in exploring the options that you did have, and like most mediocre players, fell back on something that more or less worked and stuck with it. And now you're complaining that it's the game's fault.

You can play any relatively complex party-based cRPG the same way.

I (and others) did advise you that a two-priest party is offbeat and unbalanced, but you insisted on going with it anyway. That's your doing, not the game's.

FWIW, playing offbeat parties can be a lot of fun in its own way. A lot of the fun is about finding ways to "break" the game. A lot of it comes from discovering how different the experience is if you stack some things and gimp yourself on others. It adds tons of replay value. I've done it. But it will inevitably make the thing more monotonous because you have a smaller box of toys to play with.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,000
Pathfinder: Wrath
Yeah, I didn't "show initiative" by "not exploring the options that I have" and that's why I'm a "mediocre player". What does that even mean? What "options" didn't I explore? The only criteria that I had for my party were for Durance to be there and not to have a Wizard in it. I am at fault for not "playing correctly" or I'm just bad (while steamrolling the entire game) and can't recognize the tactical genius. That's laughable. So, the only way to be a "good player" and bask in the glory of the design is to play the most standard of parties and not be a deviant with 2 priests in the party or else it breaks the careful juggle of absolute balance.
 

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