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nope, plot was great in both W6/W7 and characters were fun
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Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread
- Thread starter Major_Blackhart
- Start date
nope, plot was great in both W6/W7 and characters were fun
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
Quoting myself:
Yeah, if that's good writing, I'm Hemingway.
Yeah, if that's good writing, I'm Hemingway.
still a better story than pillars of eternity
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O yeah, lets play cherry picking
Ultima 1: Back to the Future meets Tie Fighter meets kill the Evil Wizard cliche
Ultima 2: Travel through time and space to visit empty worlds and try to destroy the Evil Wizard's whore
Ultima 3: Find the bastard child of the two and kill him (see the pattern)
Ultima 4: Prove that you're a good guy by repeatedly giving money to beggars
Ultima 5: Stop Britannia from going retarded by killing even more Evil Overlords (three this time)
Ultima 6: Kill more evil monsters, but then learn that the true evil is you
Ultima 7: Stop a murder cult from summoning Darkseid
Ultima 8: Finally becoming evil, because you want to go home
Ultima 9: Realize that Britannia is a shit show and destroy it all
man, what depth
First of all, do we know for sure all the texts in Wiz6/7 were written by Bradley himself? It's the assumption but I'd like a confirmation.
And second, plot and style aren't the same. As I said, almost all RPGs ever made had retarded plots. And true, Bradley's Wizards&Warriors is the king of plot retardery. But style, the way with words...if Wiz7 was really written by Bradley then he's an exceptional wordsmith. All these strange names and words - legerdemain, skullduggery, kirijutsu, bascinet&camail, chain chausses, chamois skirt, stud-cuir skirt, tosei-do, nyctalinth, the way NPCs speak, with hints of japanese (munks), german (Umpani), italian (Rattkins) - had a profound effect on my first playthrough, it made the game something more, special. It's all tingling with the strange, the exotic. Plus many of the descriptive texts evoke a real sense of the place, real feeling.
What a great beginning to a grand adventure
And if you don't see it, there's only one way for you - back to Ultima.GUTENZBLAG!
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
It's not cherry-picking, what I quoted is the plot of wizardry 6 in its entirety. I stand by what I said. Ultima may have based it's big bad off of Electronic Arts, but at least it wasn't goddamned *D R A C U L A*
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I disagree. I'm a fun of both jRPGs and Ultima and they are nothing alike. Sure, they both are narrative-driven and often light on character development but that's where the similarities end. Ultima games rely on exploration, most early RPGs are more based on grinding and fighting bosses. Ultimas are usually very open. You have some vague goal and some limitations but you can explore most of the world from the get-go. JRPGs on the other hand are very lineal, down to the order in which you are supposed to be visiting towns. JRPGs usually have very limited dialogues, Ultima games are based on dialogue. Ultima 6, 7 and Underworld are known for advanced (for their time) ways of interacting with the world. JRPGs usually don't let you do anything other than opening doors and using some set-pieces.
If you want to look for ways that Ultima led to decline then look at games like Skyrim. You can practically see a straight line of progression from early Ultimas to Ultima Underworld to Arena and then to Skyrim itself. On the other hand some of the more inclined games like Gothic were also inspired by Ultima.
In fact I'd say that jRPGs are mostly descendants of early Wizardries. Sure along the way more story was added and more hardcore elements were removed but there is very little contamination from other western sources. The only big influence from Ultima I can see in jRPGs is having an overland map and explorable towns instead of menu-based ones.
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I was going to play Wizardry 6 after finishing all the previous ones (sans 4) but reading this description made me want to jump right in.
EDIT:
Sorry for double posting
TigerKnee
Arcane
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He hasn't written 7 paragraphs on why boobs are evil yet.
and thus ends Wizardry 7
the endgame was such anal banality it defies reason
my favourite were probably all the fucking "mazes" in case you weren't having enough fun at wasting time
the city of sky just REALLY needed those forcefields amirite
and the hall of the past just REALLY needed all those teleports and it was REALLY necessary to go through it and then back again... twice amirite
Also all the fucking scavenger hunts and the ridiculously vague "instructions" from all the parchments were just the cherry on top, thank God I had a walkthrough.
on my way out i killed the mighty mouse
Also, I honestly don't get how Wizardry 8 is supposed to be a "mere shadow" (tm) of 7. On the whole I liekd 7 a lot, except for the ridiculously shitty endgame, but I don't think I can from the top of my head now point to anything it does that much better than 8. Lack of level-scaling might be one, I guess, but apart from that... But maybe my memory is hazy and needs refreshing.
and speaking of Wizardry 8...
the endgame was such anal banality it defies reason
my favourite were probably all the fucking "mazes" in case you weren't having enough fun at wasting time
the city of sky just REALLY needed those forcefields amirite
and the hall of the past just REALLY needed all those teleports and it was REALLY necessary to go through it and then back again... twice amirite
Also all the fucking scavenger hunts and the ridiculously vague "instructions" from all the parchments were just the cherry on top, thank God I had a walkthrough.
on my way out i killed the mighty mouse
Also, I honestly don't get how Wizardry 8 is supposed to be a "mere shadow" (tm) of 7. On the whole I liekd 7 a lot, except for the ridiculously shitty endgame, but I don't think I can from the top of my head now point to anything it does that much better than 8. Lack of level-scaling might be one, I guess, but apart from that... But maybe my memory is hazy and needs refreshing.
and speaking of Wizardry 8...
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
First of all, do we know for sure all the texts in Wiz6/7 were written by Bradley himself? It's the assumption but I'd like a confirmation.
And second, plot and style aren't the same. As I said, almost all RPGs ever made had retarded plots. And true, Bradley's Wizards&Warriors is the king of plot retardery. But style, the way with words...if Wiz7 was really written by Bradley then he's an exceptional wordsmith. All these strange names and words - legerdemain, skullduggery, kirijutsu, bascinet&camail, chain chausses, chamois skirt, stud-cuir skirt, tosei-do, nyctalinth, the way NPCs speak, with hints of japanese (munks), german (Umpani), italian (Rattkins) - had a profound effect on my first playthrough, it made the game something more, special. It's all tingling with the strange, the exotic. Plus many of the descriptive texts evoke a real sense of the place, real feeling.
What a great beginning of a grand adventure
GUTENZBLAG!
The problem with Wiz 7 is that none of the characters make any sense and everything they do is diametrically at odds with what their stated intentions are. Yeah, Bradley writes flowery purple prose a lot, but note that the passage you quoted is almost unique (the rest of the game rarely has such narration) and also totally irrelevant to the story.
-Look at how the game works. Let's say you head off to New City. New City is the best area in the game, in terms of story. Every faction is represented there, and you get the most info about what's going on. Eventually you get two story threads: go to the Munk city to help them, and find the Gorn prisoner. The gorn guy tells you to go to their lands and solve the troubles there. He gives you a password so you can go safely through their lands.
-At the Gorn lands, you get stopped at the border and the guard tells you to warn the king. Then you get attacked every 3 steps by gorn. Okay, so much for safe passage. You find the castle and kill your way up to the king, and tell him the war isn't going well. Well duh, the castle seems to be completely overrun. He says he's off to fight the war... but actually just wanders around the world looking for maps. That's it, quest "complete." You can't actually resolve the war or do anything else, besides kill the king for shits and giggles. He keeps saying "the war goes badly for our side." WHAT SIDE? Every Gorn in the game is hostile to you, save 3, and he's just searching for maps. Bonkers.
-At Munkarama, you get attacked by Munk, then they ask if you want to join. You eventually go to a dungeon under the city and fight "Dark Munk" (they look the same) and kill their leader. Then you find some other Munks who are getting high, and talk to Master Xheng. He sends you on a quest, then wanders around the world looking for maps. Eventually you can solve his quest to get the password to get the map from New City, but chances are good it's long gone by then, so it's pointless. You also slaughter Munks by the dozen every step of the way.
-At the Umpani city you actually get a series of quests that make logical sense and have a narrative flow to them (this makes me think Bradley had nothing to do with the area and fought against its design). You also rarely fight any Umpani, they're marked as "renegades," and only on the outskirts of the city. They eventually tell you to find Rodan, warn him his nemesis Shritis T'Rang is on the planet, and he is explicitly ordered to avoid him. You tell Rodan and he immediately stomps off in search of Shritis... (but actually just wanders randomly in search of maps). The Umpani then tell you to go blow up the T'Rang city, but their base gets completely blown to kingdom-come by the Savant. Lolwut? So random. Apparently you can still side with the Umpani at the endgame; how? They just got exploded to smithereens, why would the player think they're even an option anymore?
-At the T'Rang city you have to kill your way through hundreds of dudes, and then the leader offers you a job. You meet Shritis and he tells you he wants you to kill Rodan, his sworn nemesis, who he will stop at nothing to defeat... while he randomly wanders around the world in search of maps. The leader asks you to find the Boat map from the Rattkin city, which is the closest the game has to a quest that actually furthers the plot. It doesn't matter though, finding the map does nothing for the T'Rang, you can just kill the leader and blow up all their eggs and it doesn't matter. Shritis doesn't even care that you committed genocide against his race.
-At the Rattkin ruins there is both a Rattkin thieves guild and a Rattkin mafia. Like everywhere else, you kill your way through the thieve's guild and then they ask you to join. But the NPC Bleinmas doesn't wander around the world in search of maps. What a twist! The mafia also attack you constantly and then ask for your help stowing away on the Savant's ship so they can get imported to Wizardry 8. Okay then.
-Finally at the Dane tower you are invited to join their cult, which means murdering your way through their tower while also paying escalating fees at each level; bonus nonsense! At the top of the tower you find a giant blood-orgy trying to summon a demon while they blast you with fireballs, then ask you for help to summon the demon, then betray you because reasons. Meanwhile the Dane NPC... wanders around the world in search of maps, and doesn't care you killed everyone in his tower from top to bottom.
THIS SHIT IS BANANAS. None of these quests makes any sense; they're all deranged lunatic nonsense. Even though every one of these people is searching for the maps to the Astral Dominae, none of them ever mention it or say anything about the main quest.
The faction system in Wiz7 is borked beyond belief. It's clear the developers wanted to have a rich story-filled world where the player could make major decisions between different factions but also murder everyone with no repercussions. Even fucking Skyrim handles factions better.
-Nothing really compares to the main plot though, which is overall a very small part of the game. You fight your way through the tomb of the astral dominae but you can't open it because you're not special enough. You have to go save Vi Domina. Vi was kidnapped by the Savant but then joined forces with him to find the Dominae but then he betrayed her and locked her up in New City. Right. So you go save her and she says she will meet you in the tomb.
Vi Domina is the classic "DM-NPC," or author pet character. Bradley thinks she's awesome, and you're not allowed to not think she's awesome. She's the real main character of the game, you're just her lackeys.
Ending spoilers:
She meets you in the tomb to unlock the Dominae and then the Savant shows up with some goons and you waste him. Quest complete, right? But then Vi does the dumbest thing imaginable. She says you can't all teleport to the Savant's ship because the signal is too weak, even though the Savant just 'ported in with a whole squad of robots. She also says if she doesn't go back alone it will "raise suspicions." Did she forget that these guys already attacked her once and threw her in jail? Why is she even going back to the ship at all? The player has a ship in the Sky City ready to go, there is no reason for her to go back to the Savant's ship at all. But away she goes.
You go to the Sky city ship and the Savant appears with Vi. Turns out the one you fought in the tomb was a double and this was his real plan all along. He betrayed Vi and left her for dead so you would come rescue her and unlock the Astral Dominae so he could try to steal it and intentionally fail so that Vi would be dumb enough to go back to the ship so he could capture her and hold her hostage in exchange for the Dominae OH COME THE FUCK ON.
Basically the author is expecting you to care a whole lot more about an NPC than you might, in a game where every NPC is a giant walking Exp Bag/Quest Item-thief. I would have been more impressed with the Savant if he had just said you foiled his plan but his caution saved him and now he was making a final attempt to win. Whatever. The game actually gives you a choice to keep the Dominae but more or less tells you directly you HAVE to save Bradley's pet character. If you let her die you get another "Dumb Boffo ending" like in Wizardry 6 (Who is the Dumb Boffo who wrote it?) The stupid thing about this is no matter how you look at it the best course of action (which the game doesn't allow) is to bum-rush the Savant. How tough could he be? The worst thing that happens is Vi dies; I had five characters who could cast Resurrection.
When I was playing this part of the game I was also re-watching Guardians of the Galaxy, and I thought to myself, one thing I like about that movie is there's no ridiculous, cliched scene where the bad guy grabs the girl to hold her hostage in exchange for the McGuffin. Then Wizardry 7 does that exact friggin thing. So lame.
You go to the Sky city ship and the Savant appears with Vi. Turns out the one you fought in the tomb was a double and this was his real plan all along. He betrayed Vi and left her for dead so you would come rescue her and unlock the Astral Dominae so he could try to steal it and intentionally fail so that Vi would be dumb enough to go back to the ship so he could capture her and hold her hostage in exchange for the Dominae OH COME THE FUCK ON.
Basically the author is expecting you to care a whole lot more about an NPC than you might, in a game where every NPC is a giant walking Exp Bag/Quest Item-thief. I would have been more impressed with the Savant if he had just said you foiled his plan but his caution saved him and now he was making a final attempt to win. Whatever. The game actually gives you a choice to keep the Dominae but more or less tells you directly you HAVE to save Bradley's pet character. If you let her die you get another "Dumb Boffo ending" like in Wizardry 6 (Who is the Dumb Boffo who wrote it?) The stupid thing about this is no matter how you look at it the best course of action (which the game doesn't allow) is to bum-rush the Savant. How tough could he be? The worst thing that happens is Vi dies; I had five characters who could cast Resurrection.
When I was playing this part of the game I was also re-watching Guardians of the Galaxy, and I thought to myself, one thing I like about that movie is there's no ridiculous, cliched scene where the bad guy grabs the girl to hold her hostage in exchange for the McGuffin. Then Wizardry 7 does that exact friggin thing. So lame.
If you love over-written purple prose, great, Bradley is the writer for you, but bad plot is bad plot. I will be the first to agree detailed story is not crucial to a good RPG. But if you're going to write an extensive, detailed story for your game and this is the result, maybe you should stick to evil wizards at the bottom of dungeons.
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
As an aside, the next game Bradley made after this, Wizards and Warriors, pretty much does have the standard plot about an evil wizard lurking in the bottom of a dungeon. You know what? It works far better than Wiz 7.
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
I may be a pedantic windbag but I'll not whinge over some succubus titties.
Oh yeah actually the wandering NPCs are probably the biggest disappointment for me. Before playing, I've heard so much about them that ZOMG there are NPC PARTIES that can ACCOMPLISH OBJECTIVES BEFORE YOU!!! How cool!
but the end result is that there are just random dudes you keep bumping into that slow your progress, with whom you actually don't interact with because why the fuck would you, and they're only there to steal your macguffins
hurr
but the end result is that there are just random dudes you keep bumping into that slow your progress, with whom you actually don't interact with because why the fuck would you, and they're only there to steal your macguffins
hurr
Lonely Vazdru
Pimp my Title
Interesting read. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to wander the world in search for maps.
Look. I've said countless times all RPG plots are retarded and the Bradley's ones doubly so. W&W plot is so bad it's actually beyond hillarious.
That said most of what you've written Grampy_Bone is nonsense demonstrating you can't pay attention even to this simplistic fanfic story. First Gorn. You're told in amazing clarity there's civil war raging among the Gorns and nothing is certain anymore. Lord Galiere tells you explicitly your letter of safe passage is useless because of the civil war and that he can't grant you safety anymore. Later you'll learn the civil war was started by the Gorn "shaman" Murkatos who was seduced by the newcomers from the stars who promised him power and all that. So yeah, every RPG needs armies of mobs to fight through but here it IS explained with some degree of satisfaction.
The munks that fight you are either demented (they're even called that) or just don't like you. Maybe you told a passing group of munks they're losers and they stink. The fact you're friendly with Rulae, T'Shober or Xen Xheng doesn't mean every single munk will be your best pal for life. I actually like it.
T'Rang are more problematic, I'll give you that, one would expect them to leave you alone while you're running errands for their queen, due to their hive-like society. You rightly point out the fights with the Umpani are much less frequent if you're allied, you're probably fighting just random groups of drunk soldiers or something. But in Nyctalinth you have to go through hordes of them slimy spiders even when allied and yeah, that doesn't make sense. Especially when it'd be quite easy to fix.
I don't see any problems with the Danes whatsoever, they're just demonic and mad. You're fighting them on your way up the tower because it's all part of the test. You're supposed to prove your worth if you want to get into their inner circle. And Magna Dane is blasting you with fireballs because lol why not, let's have some side fun while we're having group sex orgy in a pool of demonic blood. Seems totally coherent to me, would've done the same.
Vi Domina was kidnapped by Savant because only she can work with the Astral Dominae. Because of reasons. She never "join forces with him", she's just doing what she's told (while looking for ways to escape). No problem there.
And the reason everyone is looking for maps is clearly explained as well - the Cosmic Forge was stolen and now everyone knows Astral Dominae is hidden on Guardia. So everyone rushes to find it and use it for their purposes, both the spacefaring races and the local menagerie. Little do they know these precious maps are only good to wipe your arse with since they only contain the most useless clues in videogame history (the Dragon map literally says if you can't find anything look again. Wow, who would've thunk) that they won't be able to figure out in a million years and they'll have to call Sir-Techs paid help line like everyone else.
That said most of what you've written Grampy_Bone is nonsense demonstrating you can't pay attention even to this simplistic fanfic story. First Gorn. You're told in amazing clarity there's civil war raging among the Gorns and nothing is certain anymore. Lord Galiere tells you explicitly your letter of safe passage is useless because of the civil war and that he can't grant you safety anymore. Later you'll learn the civil war was started by the Gorn "shaman" Murkatos who was seduced by the newcomers from the stars who promised him power and all that. So yeah, every RPG needs armies of mobs to fight through but here it IS explained with some degree of satisfaction.
The munks that fight you are either demented (they're even called that) or just don't like you. Maybe you told a passing group of munks they're losers and they stink. The fact you're friendly with Rulae, T'Shober or Xen Xheng doesn't mean every single munk will be your best pal for life. I actually like it.
T'Rang are more problematic, I'll give you that, one would expect them to leave you alone while you're running errands for their queen, due to their hive-like society. You rightly point out the fights with the Umpani are much less frequent if you're allied, you're probably fighting just random groups of drunk soldiers or something. But in Nyctalinth you have to go through hordes of them slimy spiders even when allied and yeah, that doesn't make sense. Especially when it'd be quite easy to fix.
I don't see any problems with the Danes whatsoever, they're just demonic and mad. You're fighting them on your way up the tower because it's all part of the test. You're supposed to prove your worth if you want to get into their inner circle. And Magna Dane is blasting you with fireballs because lol why not, let's have some side fun while we're having group sex orgy in a pool of demonic blood. Seems totally coherent to me, would've done the same.
Vi Domina was kidnapped by Savant because only she can work with the Astral Dominae. Because of reasons. She never "join forces with him", she's just doing what she's told (while looking for ways to escape). No problem there.
And the reason everyone is looking for maps is clearly explained as well - the Cosmic Forge was stolen and now everyone knows Astral Dominae is hidden on Guardia. So everyone rushes to find it and use it for their purposes, both the spacefaring races and the local menagerie. Little do they know these precious maps are only good to wipe your arse with since they only contain the most useless clues in videogame history (the Dragon map literally says if you can't find anything look again. Wow, who would've thunk) that they won't be able to figure out in a million years and they'll have to call Sir-Techs paid help line like everyone else.
Great Deceiver
Arcane
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2012
- Messages
- 5,894
Personally I think the best Bradley Wizardry is 5, which was another game entirely that he had to jerry-rig and retrofit into the Wizardry theme. It was, nonetheless, an impressively sensible refinement of the classic Woodhead Wiz formula without going too overboard, floor layouts were great and it was generally pretty fucking satisfying to play.
While I appreciate the ambition and vision behind Wiz 6-7, and it was his express intention to break with previous game conventions, I still think earlier Wizardries are a more 'pure' experience and it's not a coincidence that all Jap derivatives are of that formula and not of the later one.
While I appreciate the ambition and vision behind Wiz 6-7, and it was his express intention to break with previous game conventions, I still think earlier Wizardries are a more 'pure' experience and it's not a coincidence that all Jap derivatives are of that formula and not of the later one.
Viata
Arcane
I loved and still love the way those maps were written (so much so that I kinda-sorta imported the concept into our current tabletop campaign). They are hard and very metaphorical, but they succeed on two counts:
- They are not full solutions (except *LEGEND* and *BOAT*), they just prod your mind in the good direction and open up the creative associations which let you solve the puzzles. You don't actually need them since you can put two and two together on your own, but they are certainly beneficial.
- Those holy shit moments when you figure them out (sometimes even in hindsight) are priceless.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2012
- Messages
- 1,879,250
Except, you know, there are two other endings as well.
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
Yeah, only if, for some reason, you lie to Vi about having a ship (why would you?) and then go to get the help of one of the two exploded factions you massacred over the course of the game. The other endings, incredibly, make even less sense.
Ok I was exaggerating a little bit. But let's go one by one.
You need the Legend map. You need the Boat and Crystal map if you don't use guides. The Sphinx map is vague but still somewhat decipherable and somewhat helpful, you wouldn't use the Rebus Egge on that salty beach unless you always try everything on everything (which is a legitimate method in W7). The Serpent map is infuriating, it'd be a great clue ("the Serpent winds and coils through the mists...") if it wasn't for the fact the Coil of Serpent only works at night. So unless you randomly arrive to that cave at night you are bound to get horribly stuck.
Then the Star map is legitimate, I guess, but extremelly hard. I've never figured out the puzzle with the Gaelin Stone. Then again you don't need it since you don't need Phoonzang's ship, you can always side with the Umpani/T'Rang, which is in fact the preferable solution since starting W8 in the Monastery suck dick.
And then the useless ones. Fools map notwithstanding (never thought red herrings particularly funny), the Temple map is trash since the riddle around the Phoonzang statue in Munkarama is the easiest in the game. Globe is Fools light, it's not even a hint. Dragon is a complete joke ("Only he that yet looks again at all he hath discovered, may find hidden the new meanings"...you don't say; I guess it refers to that walls in the Dragon Cave where you have to search, but only in a specific directions...see, it doesn't make much sense even in hindsight). And Crypt is probably the most infuriating one, I guess it tries to guide you through the the "puzzle" with the go-through wall on the Mandolian Isles but fuck me if I know how are you supposed to divine that. It's by far the most fuck-you puzzle in the game.
Btw the concept of the global map chase is great in theory but really, it kindda breaks the replayability. Most of the maps get taken so fast I almost always get properly only those that can't be stolen by NPCs. You kindda know that going through Old City, Funhouse and some other areas (don't remember anymore which ones get taken) pointless but you go through them anyway coz it's fun.
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