Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar

[Fowyr]

Felipepepe's review has been read by Codexians which for the most part already knew Grimoire was out and already knew what was going on from the Steam reviews and the multiple threads here. I'd say its influence on sales has been zero. Also I can't see how a "popamoler" would buy a game after reading that review, I wonder if Cleve has read it at all.

Some collect .txts, my guilty pleasure is that every year or two I search that normies think about our prestigious magazine. Many of them read front page articles, because couldn't complain about our tastes, but wouldn't touch forum with 10 foot pole. We are too problematic and toxic for wee ones.
I like felipepepe, despite Undertale and other shit, he endeavors for noble goal.
But it speaks a lot about his deep spite for Cleve that he couldn't even add little edit. "Lol, guys, I'm such a fool! RMB works too!" "Inventory is kinda sucks, but Cleve added fast scrolling to it". Just look at Steam reviews above. Main complain of one of them was exactly "four clicks to cast spell".
It's one thing to rip game a new one because it sucks. But using half truths for it is unbecoming.

 

[Jugashvili]

Main complain of one of them was exactly "four clicks to cast spell".

I don't mind the interface myself (what's the rush?) but casting a spell can take as many as six clicks.

1. Right-click on the action icon OR click on the spell icon if it's the one that's showing [ignore next step]
2. [optional] select "spell" from the drop-down menu.
3. [optional] select the effect/category
4. Select the spell
5. Select the power level
6. Click cast

 

[Zep Zepo]

Main complain of one of them was exactly "four clicks to cast spell".

I don't mind the interface myself (what's the rush?) but casting a spell can take as many as six clicks.

1. Right-click on the action icon OR click on the spell icon if it's the one that's showing [ignore next step]
2. [optional] select "spell" from the drop-down menu.
3. [optional] select the effect/category
4. Select the spell
5. Select the power level
6. Click cast

Wait until the DRM version where he adds button "Location Randomization"

Click Click Click Click Click CANCEL...WTF? How'd the Cast button move positions!

Spoiler

600 hours!

Zep--

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Staying on topic, Cleve's and his fanclub's butthurt at Pepe's review (which is fairly positive still, praising first 25-30 hours because "fun") show why so many reviewers become dishonest and start shilling popa-a-?WORM? for free games, Doritos, community perks or w/e. In this regard, Pepe's honest review is "incline" (though it could have been longer, for my taste).

And what's up with SteamSpy

 

[ManjuShri]

A glimpse of how wonderful Australia could really be ... without all those damn Australians.

Any impetus to move to another country?

 

[Lady_Error]

Main complain of one of them was exactly "four clicks to cast spell".

I don't mind the interface myself (what's the rush?) but casting a spell can take as many as six clicks.

1. Right-click on the action icon OR click on the spell icon if it's the one that's showing [ignore next step]
2. [optional] select "spell" from the drop-down menu.
3. [optional] select the effect/category
4. Select the spell
5. Select the power level
6. Click cast

In Wizardry 7 you also need 4-6 clicks to cast a spell (more in exploration mode, fewer in combat and on character screen):

1. Click on spell icon
2. Select character
3. Select spell school
4. Select spell
5. Select spell strength
6. Click cast

What nobody has mentioned is that combat usually takes far fewer clicks in Grimoire compared to Wizardry - the actions that stay the same do not need to be selected each round.

 

[Fowyr]

What nobody has mentioned is that combat usually takes far fewer clicks in Grimoire compared to Wizardry - the actions that stay the same do not need to be selected each round.

Yep, BTW, it was the only good thing in Thunderscape combat.

I don't mind the interface myself (what's the rush?) but casting a spell can take as many as six clicks.

These clicks are good. I talk about several unnecessary additional clicks to bring up spell menu.

 

[NotAGolfer]

Cleve, let me share an anecdote. A couple of decades ago I tried to teach English at a Philadelphia high school. I quit after eight week for various unflattering reasons. But when I was there, I learned about "the room." This is the limbo which housed teachers who were too toxic to actually put in a classroom or too burnt out to actually do anything in a classroom. It was easier to store them there than fire them.

Your comments also remind me of The Wire if you've seen it, how rare "good police" were.

Another anecdote: I once worked as a technical editor/writer contractor at Microsoft. There was some social event and I asked some random guy in the group about what he did. His response was that he converted oxygen into carbon dioxide. His non-sardonic reply, I should add.

Every time in the past 25 years I have been told I am in the grip of a powerful delusion, I have met an Australian who is so competent, so good to work with and such a pro that instantly every single apologetic ever offered by his fellow Australians seems totally ridiculous. The contrast makes it obvious instantly they are all some of the greatest liars and lazy thugs the world has ever known. If it is such a complicated subject how come this guy (who is an Australian) makes it all look so easy? This guy is like that thing Cleve was talking about. I'm not too harsh. I am not judgemental. My standards are not too high.

All I am asking is to see more Australians who look like they have the wherewithal to get up and exit to the bathroom when they need to go as opposed to just sitting there and crapping in their own pants they are so lazy. That describes 90% of Australians. The majority of the people here I predict will never amount to anything, ever, no matter what happens in the world. To succeed at anything you need to be able to move, blink and react. If you just sit there with a load bubbling and percolating in your drawers until the entire office reeks I am guessing you are NOT the "next Microsoft." (A phrase Australians like to use)

Noone has any use for your opinion pieces on us saps.
So get back to fixing that shit game of yours, like making all these numbers going up actually meaningful.
Instead of wasting time here.

 

[Lord Andre]

I was messing around with deep freeze and it does around 500 damage on a one die cast... so I was thinking "ok, this shit is off the hook, it's too much" then I could feel Josh Sawyer winch every time I used it so now I use it all the time...

Spoiler

Spoiler

Honest opinion, I'd make it cost more mana per die. Start at 64 for example.

 

[Quantomas]

Reading the review, I thought, well, that sounds reasonable and like a fair view of what the game offers.

Then I discovered that Grimoire has right-clicks after all. Ouch!

It also has tooltips that appear after half a second. Oh, oh ...

Food isn't that useless as was claimed, sigh.

Now, I do understand that Grimoire has no manual yet. I do not doubt that Felipepe made the review with good intentions, to point out the flaws the game currently has, so that Cleve could fix these. However, making claims does expose you to counters. Why not simply say, as the game has no manual yet, I couldn't figure out a way to avoid the tedious procedure of selecting an action other than clicking on the arrow, didn't spot any helpful tooltips, and have no idea whether food is useful? This would highlight what truly is missing.

Here is my takeaway: first, I will reserve judgement on Felipepe's review as I will reserve judgement on Grimoire.

A manual is mandatory at this point, even if it does nothing more than saying:

If you run into encounters that instakill your party members, you are not playing the game correctly.​

Put this on the first page and explain that this game is intentionally designed with no hand-holding. Use all your wits to come up with a strong party, collect all the experience you can, use buffs/debuffs in dangerous areas and save frequently. If you still run into seemingly impossible encounters, you probably missed alternative ways to deal with a situation. Or you need to come back later.

There is no reason not to have a barebones manual out now, with sections left blank and to be filled in later. But not having that will harm players like it did Felipepe.

Cleve, you have done something incredible, and you are right on track as the game has got the important features right. Balance, skills and encounters can be fixed way more easily.

You also have made 60K, if I interpret the figures correctly. You do not need to apply for office jobs any longer. Trust and focus on Grimoire without this burden. Time is not your enemy.

 

[DavidBVal]

You also have made 60K, if I interpret the figures correctly.

He sold over 5K copies at an average of let's say 37, so the gross is 185K

Minus Steam fee, minus VAT and sales tax from end users it is something like 120K USD. That's a lot of Zimbabwe Weimar Republic Australian Dollars.

 

[Archibald]

Perfectly balanced game and unbalanced mess fundamentally lead to same game - in first case what you do doesn't matter because everything is viable, in second case what you do also doesn't matter because random shit is happening all over the place.

So no, there is nothing strange or weird that people who complained about PoE being too balanced now complain about Grimoire being too unbalanced.

 

[NotAGolfer]

Perfectly balanced game and unbalanced mess fundamentally lead to same game - in first case what you do doesn't matter because everything is viable, in second case what you do also doesn't matter because random shit is happening all over the place.

So no, there is nothing strange or weird that people who complained about PoE being too balanced now complain about Grimoire being too unbalanced.

If the review is correct on this then in Grimoire's case what you do does matter.
Either pick the same cheese tactics over and over or die. You have the choice.
Which devalues all the care put into partybuilding and makes this a poor ass Wizardry clone.

And I trust felipepepe more on this than that lunatic Aussie Neanderthal impostor. That little snakeoil salesman trick where he insults everyone and their grandma and rambles stupid shit all the time is kinda ingenious though, I give him that. It makes people listen because it's entertaining.

 

[DoomIhlVaria]

Every time in the past 25 years I have been told I am in the grip of a powerful delusion, I have met an Australian who is so competent, so good to work with and such a pro that instantly every single apologetic ever offered by his fellow Australians seems totally ridiculous. The contrast makes it obvious instantly they are all some of the greatest liars and lazy thugs the world has ever known. If it is such a complicated subject how come this guy (who is an Australian) makes it all look so easy? This guy is like that thing Cleve was talking about. I'm not too harsh. I am not judgemental. My standards are not too high.

All I am asking is to see more Australians who look like they have the wherewithal to get up and exit to the bathroom when they need to go as opposed to just sitting there and crapping in their own pants they are so lazy. That describes 90% of Australians. The majority of the people here I predict will never amount to anything, ever, no matter what happens in the world. To succeed at anything you need to be able to move, blink and react. If you just sit there with a load bubbling and percolating in your drawers until the entire office reeks I am guessing you are NOT the "next Microsoft." (A phrase Australians like to use)

You should move back to America and enjoy a cheeseburger before the bombs drop.

 

[DavidBVal]

I have posted already regarding how both early Might & Magic and Wizardries are, IMHO, heavily balanced games; but the balance is something entirely different than what we understand nowadays.

Back then Balance simply meant making systems robust and giving a fair-ish chance to the player, but just that. Whereas nowadays it means avoiding all frustration and making sure progress goes on, making challenges illusory.

A properly balanced game provides an overall predictable and streamlined system and environment, but with "broken things" here and there. Things you can tweak or abuse, yes. And also things that can kill you even if you do everything right, from time to time. Or, in words of Nietszche, "I tell you: one must quietly have chaos within oneself, to give birth to a dancing star". Note the "quietly" there, it's not casual.

Balance is good. Balance was a priority during the final stage of development of Wizardry and many other great, old games. Pool of Radiance is another great example, it has the advantage of a very robust and refined rulesystem (AD&D) and its encounters are very carefully designed and gauged. You can follow the "natural order" of areas and encounters, which seems to be taken straight from the MM and guarantee a reasonable challenge... or you can go for that Valjeevo Castle gate when you are level 4 and meet the 2 Ettins. Or find the Vampire too early. Or walk into the graveyard without the right spells. This sudden shock of something "breaking the smoothness" and "being unbalanced" is what brings the most fun moment in games. But in a game with no overall balance or continuity, with no predictability to shook and crumble into sudden chaos, and no semblance of order, these broken things are meaningless.

So I say yes to balance, yes to robust, well designed systems, and yes to chaos and broken things and the unexpected amidst the predictable. Both need of each other.

 

[Prime Junta]

nowadays it means avoiding all frustration and making sure progress goes on, making challenges illusory

Not this canard again.

Nobody. NOBODY advocates for this definition of balance. It's a strawman.

There are games which have something like that as a design objective of course -- notably Bethsoft's hiking simulators -- but even they don't call it "balance." They call it what it is, "level scaling."

 

[DavidBVal]

nowadays it means avoiding all frustration and making sure progress goes on, making challenges illusory

Not this canard again.

Nobody. NOBODY advocates for this definition of balance. It's a strawman.

It's not that they advocate for it, it's more of a thing that happens in the current "industry" to guarantee good reviews, happy players and secure return of investment. Or are you telling me games like Dragon Age or POE could have been released with frustratingly hard early areas, like Wiz 6? Where D.W Bradley chuckled and said "lol they better step up and maybe after 3 party rerolls they'll begin to have a chance", the modern designers would make sure people doesn't begin to cry and request a steam refund.

 

[Lhynn]

nowadays it means avoiding all frustration and making sure progress goes on, making challenges illusory

Nobody. NOBODY advocates for this definition of balance. It's a strawman.

This is a blatant lie. Its basically the most common definition for pve content.

 

[Prime Junta]

Or are you telling me games like Dragon Age or POE could have been released with frustratingly hard early areas, like Wiz 6?

They were.

Of course they're not frustratingly hard once you know in which order you're "supposed to" do them, but if you're a first-time player and innocently pop into the Eothas temple ruins at level 3 just after recruiting Edér and Aloth, you will get punched in the nuts hard. It's doable at level 3 with only Edér and Aloth LOL maybe after 3 party rerolls.

Edit: fuck it, nostalgiafags. No point talking with you guys, you're in a permanent state of arrested development

 

[Banana Smuggler]

Or are you telling me games like Dragon Age or POE could have been released with frustratingly hard early areas, like Wiz 6?

They were.

Of course they're not frustratingly hard once you know in which order you're "supposed to" do them, but if you're a first-time player and innocently pop into the Eothas temple ruins at level 3 just after recruiting Edér and Aloth, you will get punched in the nuts hard.

Please elaborate on DA:O, I'm curious about its frustratingly hard early areas.

 

[Prime Junta]

Or are you telling me games like Dragon Age or POE could have been released with frustratingly hard early areas, like Wiz 6?

They were.

Of course they're not frustratingly hard once you know in which order you're "supposed to" do them, but if you're a first-time player and innocently pop into the Eothas temple ruins at level 3 just after recruiting Edér and Aloth, you will get punched in the nuts hard.

Please elaborate on DA:O, I'm curious about its frustratingly hard early areas.

Fuck DA:O too.

 

[Jezal_k23]

Very long ago since I played DAO but wasn't it possible to stumble upon the Flemeth fight at a low level and get wrecked?

 

[Eyestabber]

nowadays it means avoiding all frustration and making sure progress goes on, making challenges illusory

Not this canard again.

Nobody. NOBODY advocates for this definition of balance. It's a strawman.

There are games which have something like that as a design objective of course -- notably Bethsoft's hiking simulators -- but even they don't call it "balance." They call it what it is, "level scaling."

Bull-fucking-shit.

Your beloved PoE is the very definition of what David is talking about. Sawyer-style "balance" means EXACTLY that: ensuring failure is not an option. Just take a close look and do the math on PoE and you'll quickly realize that passive leveling trumps everything else. Player agency is kept to a minimum in order to ensure you can't possibly screw up.

The difference between a min and a max is like...20%/30% top. So the player that makes poor choices and the player that makes optimal choices get the same result. Arguably, the player that makes optimal choices gets to brag that "POTD is the way to play it, bruh", but, NO. No, it fucking isn't. Sawyerism ensures that the skill floor and the skill ceiling are VERY very close to each other, so nobody feels left out in the cold.

Witcher 3 is the same fucking thing. You can beat the game on Death March without ever spending a single perk point, just by making sure your gear is the same lvl as your character. Why? Because the HP + damage increase from passive leveling is the thing that actually MATTERS, with player agency adding like "20% more awsum!!!" on top.

People like you are fucking women. You claim you want challenge, but you fucking don't. And that's where Sawyer and others come in. They give you EXACTLY what you want: a pretty "RPG system" with pretty numbers and attributes, feats and whatnot for you to PRETEND to be oh-so-gud-at-AR-PEE-GEES while the developer is doing the ACTUAL decision-making. You're basically the toddler inside a moving car with a fake plastic wheel making "vrooom!!" noises while daddy Sawyer is the one doing the real driving. (someone PLS do a photoshop)

And guess what happens when a developer puts a REAL wheel on your hands? This:

I am baised to rpg's. But this game is diffrent. I wish I could give an ehhh rating but I can't give a good one and here is why.
First, I know the game says right off the bat that tha game will be hard and it ain't for weaklings. However, there is a point in time where hard stops being fun and starts being annoying and game killing. First there is combat. Combat is deterimed by 127 dice that has changeing dice faces. There have been times when I have been close to winning and guess what happens? Out of left feild hereeeeeeeeeeeeee comes a critical hit that leaves you dead! Ok big deal right I can just reaload and do it again right? Well you're going to be doing that a while. You should problay just stop fighting. The game tells you the fights that are optional,Well take note ALL FIGHTS ARE optional!!!!!!!!
Next are the way skills are set up. You have Combat,Civil and, Genaral skill points. Combat sp is for combat skills,Civl is for civil skills and, Genaral skills you can use for both. Here is the catch though there is no grinding. None. Since each fight is your last fight you don't want to use that to improve however you don't get points for talking your way out of fights. Now you get one skill point for each fight you win. 1 point. No more no less. you may get points for this or that but it stays at one.If you fight 10 pleabs and hack them to bits 1 point. If you barely survive a fight with a heavly armed merc 1 point. Now with civil skills it is similar. Unlike most rpgs where you level up evry so often this game has skill cost. Wich would be fine if the did not jump up to costing 20 points after level four. That combined with the rareity of getting points makes getting better at things hard. So I spent I a while thinking that level 4 sneak right(with no armor penailties) should be able to sneak past some sleeping people but nnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooo they saw me. Like thats the most alert sleeping person I have ever seen.
Then there are the quests. Now when you are in one city you can not leave that city to go to another one. Why? All the quests expire. Thats right! I left the city on a quest that FORCED me to leave the city, and I did not know before hand I would be leaving the city. So guess what all the quests that I had not done Expired poof gone. Like why did I even start them? I wanted to complte the quests but I guess I can't because I left the city... Makes sence. This hurts the plot too becuse when you are told to go to another city to talk to this dude but you can't because all your side quest will expire. I feel I am missing out on the story.



TL;DR:Combat is too wonky.skills are hard to level up and the story is killed by haveing quests end when you leave a city. There comes a point when the difficulty of a game kills it and stops making it fun. At the end of Fallout 1 I felt a sense of satisfaction like I had beat the odds and fought my way out of an impossible situation. I haven't finished this game yet but I feel like the games punching bag.

Source: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198175471086/recommended/230070/

Yeah...

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

A slavish devotion to balance is the hobgoblin of little minds.

 

[Lhynn]

Edit: fuck it, nostalgiafags. No point talking with you guys, you're in a permanent state of arrested development

Fuck you and your blatant lies, every fucking time i call you out on your complete bullshit you run like a rat instead of even trying to make half a decently constructed argument. Whats funny is that you actually think you are intelligent or insightful.

But the real joke is that everyone here knows you are a a weasely liar that cant be trusted. That you havent left the site in embarrasment after all the shit you have pulled is probably the only good thing about you.