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Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar

Rpguy

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Balance / unbalance you are all missing the point. The point of the game is to be FUN, the question is not if the mechanic is balanced or not balanced, the question is does this mechanic makes the game fun or not fun? If you have an underpowered class like I don't know a "shit-talker" and he does 75% of the damage the warrior does and only contirubtes by making funny observations through the whole game like "ow that fireball was damn hot" or "man that's an ugly motha-fucking snake" then some people will play it and have fun even if it's underpowered.

Sometimes unbalance makes the game not fun - I don't like it when my level 5 berzerker can kill the god of death with a 50% chance on the first turn with his poisoned knife that he found in a box in the starting area or that my sage that I made turns out to be better than my thief in every single way.

And sometimes balance makes the game not fun - All the weapons do the same damage , all classes play out the same etc.
 

agentorange

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I fail to see how the opinion of someone who thinks pokeman is a better rpg than actual good rpgs is relevant to anyone? Please make reviewers list their top 5 or 10 favorite games of the last five years so people can tell at a glance if the reviewer has any sort of crossover taste. Just having some hipster game dickhead that happened to play some old games write a review about a real rpg was about as smart as having an rpg hating console game lover like Prime Junta review TToN. Granted that the bulk of your audience here are pokeman loving console game retards who don't even bother playing most of the real rpgs that come out, but you could pretend that this site is a little monocled still.

Please make reviewers list their top 5 or 10 favorite games of the last five years so people can tell at a glance if the reviewer has any sort of crossover taste
Was there even 10 great rpgs releaed in the last five years?

Definitely. But I said games, because the people who review here play mostly console non-rpgs and would list them if they were honest. They are big fans of Bioshock, metal Gear, and Pokeman, etc. If all the reviewers only like non-rpgs and console games it paints a picture of what this site values.

Those games are all better than TToN. Or any of the kickstarter RPGs released in the last few years. Being an "RPG" doesn't automatically make a game great. In fact I would say the RPG genre has the worst good to shit ratio of any genre of games. To the point where people will applaud an rpg for having shitty, busted mechanics simply because a game from 20 years ago also had those same mechanics.
 

Darth Roxor

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This is the first time in about 2 years I've seen you actually talk about RPG mechanics outside of a shill post/kickstarter announcement.

And naturally he also happens to be wrong, so it goes to show why he doesn't talk about RPGs too often:

Let's say in one oldschool RPG, if a character dies, you can resurrect him with no permanent long-term penalty. OK, that was good, nobody had a problem with that. But now in Grimoire, if you resurrect a dead character, he loses CON. Complain about that? How dare you, evil balancer! I guess that other oldschool RPG got it wrong too. There's no limit to the purism. Burn the past!

That other oldschool RPG was called Wizardry and it also reduced vitality after resurrection.

You should stop embarrassing yourself and trying to fit in when adults are talking, Infinitron
 

Prime Junta

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There is a significant contignent in Codexia for whom "good" is simply a painstaking reproduction of a 1990s or early 2000s formula. Anything that materially deviates from it is "decline." Technical improvements like better graphics etc. are permissible, other innovations only inasmuch they do not materially deviate from the formula.

The curious thing is, some of the very same people also rhapsodise about how much more innovative and diverse and exciting games from that period were, and how modern cRPGs are dull and formulaic. It's a strange mix of arrested development, self-delusion, overcompensation, and nostalgia masquerading as prestigious and refined taste.

---> by the way, one thing that I don't think has been mentioned --->

I think it's pretty impressive in its own right that both this review and the general discussion here compares Grimoire with Wizardry 7 and, generally speaking, in a favourable light. The impression I get is also that most of the problems with Grimoire are fairly easy to fix -- tuning XP and random encounter tables, nerfing OP abilities, and what have you. The lone 'Thal did, in fact, succeed in making something it took a much bigger team to do, back in the day, even if it took him 20 years.
 

agentorange

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Technical improvements like better graphics etc. are permissible, other innovations only inasmuch they do not materially deviate from the formula.

I don't know about this, since saying that visuals matters in a visual medium or saying that the drawings in grimoire look like they were done in mspaint by a 12 year old on deviantart will get you an immediate butthurt/retard/shit rating.
 

Neanderthal

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Correct me if i'm wrong but CON going down were a staple o AD&D weren't it? Happened wi raise dead spell but not wi ressurection, unfortunately as a drawback ressurection worked on Elves while raise dead didn't, one step forward two streps back eh?
 

Lady_Error

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Technical improvements like better graphics etc. are permissible, other innovations only inasmuch they do not materially deviate from the formula.

The thing, the whole JRPG genre keeps reproducing the same formula for decades - many of them basically copying Wizardry 1-5. For some reason, the same has not been done with the later Wizardy games - until Grimoire. I'd say if a formula works, it can produce many, many good games. Just look at the IE-engine games and the new revival of that formula.
 

agentorange

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Technical improvements like better graphics etc. are permissible, other innovations only inasmuch they do not materially deviate from the formula.

The thing, the whole JRPG genre keeps reproducing the same formula for decades - many of them basically copying Wizardry 1-5.

This is blatantly false though. JRPGs may have originated from Wizardry at their earliest stage but they have continually changed and evolved over the years. Even the Japanese Wizardry games are distinct between the various sub-series, Gaiden, Empire, Busin, etc. They improved on, added to and altered the formula. And strictly talking about blobbers you have everything from Etrian Odyssey, Shin Megami Tensei, Labyrinth of Touhou, Elminage Gothic, none of which play exactly the same. Going beyond that you have stuff like Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy, Persona, SaGa, Live A Live, games that are constantly experimenting. Even the Mother series could be called blobber within the confines of its combat system but it is so far removed from the original Wizardry formula.

Then you have a game like Grimoire that copies everything from one past game down to its faults.
 

Jaesun

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Correct me if i'm wrong but CON going down were a staple o AD&D weren't it? Happened wi raise dead spell but not wi ressurection, unfortunately as a drawback ressurection worked on Elves while raise dead didn't, one step forward two streps back eh?

Per 2nd Edition: Raise Dead: Resurrection survival check, or lose 1 CON. Resurrection: Restores all life, no resurrection check.

Elves cannot be revived with Raise Dead. They can be with Resurrection.
 
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Lady_Error

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Even the Japanese Wizardry games are distinct between the various sub-series, Gaiden, Empire, Busin, etc. They improved on, added to and altered the formula. And strictly talking about blobbers you have everything from Etrian Odyssey, Shin Megami Tensei, Labyrinth of Touhou, Elminage Gothic, none of which play exactly the same.

The basic formula is still the same as Wizardry 1-5: Step based movement, phased combat, several characters, usually confined to a dungeon with no overworld. Even the mechanic of returning to town like in the early Wizardry games is reproduced in Elminage Gothic, Etryan Odyssey, etc. Where do you see improvements to the original Wizardry formula in these games?

Then you have a game like Grimoire that copies everything from one past game down to its faults

And what faults would that be? I'm really curious since you don't seem to have played the game.
 

cvv

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That other oldschool RPG was called Wizardry and it also reduced vitality after resurrection.

And for decades that has been also considered a bad design decision by most fans, since it encourages load scumming. Resurrecting a character is hard enough even without it, you don't get the spell for the first 1/3 or the game and you have only few charges from consumables. And even when you get the spell it's expensive and mana regen is a fucking pain. Wiz7 is a divine game but it didn't get everything right.
 

Rpguy

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That other oldschool RPG was called Wizardry and it also reduced vitality after resurrection.

And for decades that has been also considered a bad design decision by most fans, since it encourages load scumming. Resurrecting a character is hard enough even without it, you don't get the spell for the first 1/3 or the game and you have only few charges from consumables. And even when you get the spell it's expensive and mana regen is a fucking pain. Wiz7 is a divine game but it didn't get everything right.

Not to mention in wizardry you can find ankhs that could increase your con by 1 , by mid game every character con could be maxed. In grimoire the max you can get on level up is 9 con ( out of 100 ) and that's with extreme luck, you also are limited to 9-10 levels while in wizardry you can get to 20+ even if you multi classed.
 

agentorange

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Even the Japanese Wizardry games are distinct between the various sub-series, Gaiden, Empire, Busin, etc. They improved on, added to and altered the formula. And strictly talking about blobbers you have everything from Etrian Odyssey, Shin Megami Tensei, Labyrinth of Touhou, Elminage Gothic, none of which play exactly the same.

The basic formula is still the same as Wizardry 1-5: Step based movement, phased combat, several characters, usually confined to a dungeon with no overworld. Even the mechanic of returning to town like in the early Wizardry games is reproduced in Elminage Gothic, Etryan Odyssey, etc. Where do you see improvements to the original Wizardry formula in these games?

I explicitly stated that those specific games are all blobbers. I'm not sure how they should go about removing the most basic elements of what makes a blobber a blobber. This is like me saying that Doom and Deus Ex are very different despite being first person games and someone responds "but you walk and shoot in both of them so they're the same." The other JRPGs I listed all deviate from that formula, in fact JRPGs are famous for having overworlds, that's one of their defining features. Hell the main SMT games are blobbers and many of them do have overworlds.

As far as improvements or alterations? Better art direction, auto-mapping, more interesting stories, streamlined leveling, improved user interfaces. Additional features, the allied attacks from the Busin games, Etrian Odyssey has the map making mechanics, Labyrinth of Touhou has a 12 character party you can switch through, SMT games have demon fusion, negotiation, etc, I'm not going to list every single feature from these games.

map+comparison.png


And what faults would that be? I'm really curious since you don't seem to have played the game.

Why would I repeat everything that has already been said in the Grimoire thread and this review when the expected response will be "muh balance." I have played it, but I thought it was shit so I stopped playing it.
 

cvv

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In grimoire the max you can get on level up is 9 con ( out of 100 ) and that's with extreme luck, you also are limited to 9-10 levels while in wizardry you can get to 20+ even if you multi classed.

To be fair I suspect many of the problems with Grimoire people are reporting are due to the experience table tweak Cleve did after the beta 10 years ago when people were finishing the game on level 27. Seems to me the nerf was way too drastic and the content wasn't adjusted appropriately so now you're going through most of the game woefully underpowered.
 

Rpguy

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In grimoire the max you can get on level up is 9 con ( out of 100 ) and that's with extreme luck, you also are limited to 9-10 levels while in wizardry you can get to 20+ even if you multi classed.

To be fair I suspect many of the problems with Grimoire people are reporting are due to the experience table tweak Cleve did after the beta 10 years ago when people were finishing the game on level 27. Seems to me the nerf was way too drastic and the content wasn't adjusted appropriately so now you're going through most of the game woefully underpowered.

I agree this decision makes no sense, you can't reach high enough attributes for the "prestige" classes, you can't multi class properly even with normal classes, you can't level stats that do not increase by themselves to a decent amount and it is quite boring to play half the game without leveling once.
 

Lady_Error

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Not to mention in wizardry you can find ankhs that could increase your con by 1 , by mid game every character con could be maxed.

Last time I played Wizardry 7 a few months ago, there is no way to find enough Ankhs to max out con even on a single character by the mid game, let alone the whole party. That's only possible in the very end when you reach Sky City and can buy them.
 

Lady_Error

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Better art direction

Seriously? I guess if you like the anime weaboo stuff, it may be called better art direction.

auto-mapping

In the same vein, Grimoire has auto-mapping and even auto-walking. So there, improvement over Wizardry 7.

Etrian Odyssey has the map making mechanics

Well, that's obviously a DS feature, which was indeed superbly done. In Dark Spire too, by the way.

Labyrinth of Touhou has a 12 character party you can switch through

In Grimoire you can also recruit NPC's while in Wizardry 7 you couldn't. Another improvement.

And you didn't tell us what faults of Wizardry 7 you think Grimoire replicated and how you know that if you didn't play the game.
 

Rpguy

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Not to mention in wizardry you can find ankhs that could increase your con by 1 , by mid game every character con could be maxed.

Last time I played Wizardry 7 a few months ago, there is no way to find enough Ankhs to max out con even on a single character by the mid game, let alone the whole party. That's only possible in the very end when you reach Sky City and can buy them.

I must admit I can't remember the last time I played it, but from what I recall there were some npc you could pickpocket ankhs from and you could save scum treasure chests which sometimes gave you ankhs and seeing as I always pumped vit at character creation for hp gains and save scumm +1 vit on level up I don't think it is out of reach.
 

Darth Roxor

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Sure, in the second half of the game on. But for the first few dozen hours rez stuff is rare. Also you were drowning in them bc you've never used them, load scumming instead :cool:

Well, to be honest, a much bigger factor that calls for savescumming is that dead people get no xp.

If one of your dudes died during a boss fight, the -1 VIT hit is much less important than being deprived of 100k xp.
 

Cleveland Mark Blakemore

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FelipePepe, I wish you had never played Grimoire. Seriously. You have attracted hordes of popamolers who have simply bought the game, played it a few minutes then given it a bad review, bringing me down into "Mixed."

Your "totally broken and totally unbalanced" crap is nothing but detrimental. I would ask you to avoid playing the game in the future, you are doing nothing but hurting it as it gets polished.

You are the worst thing that has happened to Grimoire and I wish you had taken no notice of it. You were never a fan of these sorts of games and did not qualify as a reviewer, being mostly a fan of Pokemon. Not good to run a review from that kind of millennial on the front page.
 

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