Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar

[Lhynn]

Im not even speaking for grimoire, crispy promised a key, he might deliver today, who knows.

Also, i just gave Infinitron a massive

 

[YES!]

I fail to see how the opinion of someone who thinks pokeman is a better rpg than actual good rpgs is relevant to anyone? Please make reviewers list their top 5 or 10 favorite games of the last five years so people can tell at a glance if the reviewer has any sort of crossover taste. Just having some hipster game dickhead that happened to play some old games write a review about a real rpg was about as smart as having an rpg hating console game lover like Prime Junta review TToN. Granted that the bulk of your audience here are pokeman loving console game retards who don't even bother playing most of the real rpgs that come out, but you could pretend that this site is a little monocled still.

 

[DavidBVal]

I think the key point here is: don't force the games to be the way you want them to be and thus gain satisfaction, instead adapt yourself, deform yourself, learn to enjoy what sparked inside the mind of a creator that follows his vision and doesn't care about your comfort.

It could be applied to most modern media; literature is a good example. I love books that move me out of my comfort zone, be it because of the archaic language, or strange ways to articulate a story, etc. But nowadays the focus on most books is "easy to read and understand. Sort chapters so it can be read in the crapper. Using formulas that proved to work."

But this is not a black/white argument. In the end some degree of accessibility and compromise is neccessary. Cleve is a special case but most developers need to eat, and nobody is going to make another blobber for us during 23 years. The important thing is not to forget that accessibility and the ease to reach the public is a means, not an end.

 

[Infinitron]

The intellectual unseriousness of the anti-balancers is proven by the fact that their arguments have no self-limitation. They stretch into infinity. When is a game unbalanced enough?

Roguey ran into this problem, which may be the reason why he decided to become devil's advocate in this thread, because it's infuriating to deal with.

Let's say in one oldschool RPG, if a character dies, you can resurrect him with no permanent long-term penalty. OK, that was good, nobody had a problem with that. But now in Grimoire, if you resurrect a dead character, he loses CON. Complain about that? How dare you, evil balancer! I guess that other oldschool RPG got it wrong too. There's no limit to the purism. Burn the past!

It's similar to the position of the US Democratic Party on immigration. They say they're not for open borders, but they'll always take more immigrants, never less. How many immigrants is enough? 2 million a year? 5 million? 10 million? They'll never say.

tl;dr Contrary to popular belief, anti-balance = leftist mindset

 

[Viata]

Please make reviewers list their top 5 or 10 favorite games of the last five years so people can tell at a glance if the reviewer has any sort of crossover taste

Was there even 10 great rpgs releaed in the last five years?

 

[mogwaimon]

Start up Might & Magic II: Gates to Another World. Run into Cuisinarts with a low level party, get wiped. Realize later you can power up a fountain, or get just strong enough to outlast the Cuisinarts for a round until they frenzy, destroying themselves.

7 million experience points!

I don't mind that kind of imbalanced encounter, which can alter the gaming experience in a blink of an eye.

At least that is an interesting imbalance, because it requires some form of thought on the behalf of the player to accomplish.

 

[YES!]

Please make reviewers list their top 5 or 10 favorite games of the last five years so people can tell at a glance if the reviewer has any sort of crossover taste

Was there even 10 great rpgs releaed in the last five years?

Definitely. But I said games, because the people who review here play mostly console non-rpgs and would list them if they were honest. They are big fans of Bioshock, metal Gear, and Pokeman, etc. If all the reviewers only like non-rpgs and console games it paints a picture of what this site values.

 

[Lord Andre]

You're equating any act of balancing with refusal to think outside of the box, and the need to have law and order in everything that ultimately creates a dull lifeless system. I believe there should be imbalances, but I also believe those imbalances should provide fun for the player. If the imbalances can't directly provide fun for the player and instead create an annoyance for them, then the imbalance should at least create some sort of depth to the systems involved.

If the imbalance provides no fun for the player, nor provides an interesting obstacle for the player to overcome and instead simplifies the experience to the point of boredom, then should it not be eliminated?

Imbalances occur naturally. Any attempt to design just the right amount of imbalance will fail. A good game comes together from a 1000 factors pulling in different directions. The result is always unpredictable. Stubborn attempts to micro-manage this process lead to stillborn abominations like Pillars of Eternity.

If at this point you're thinking "but I had fun with Pillars of Eternity" then you are one of the zombies I was talking about that finds comfort in predictability and repetition. What you had was not fun but a feeling similar to what a dog feels when you pet him and he wags his tail. He's enjoying it but it's not ludic in nature.

 

[mogwaimon]

Haven't played PoE to be honest. Did try Tyranny. Never finished. Got bored with it because it was just dull. But your argument still basically boils down to "If you don't like what I like you're wrong." so....

 

[Roguey]

There was a time when I thought the constitution decrease was a lousy penalty, but it's not even that big of a deal since all it affects is how much vitality you get on level up (which allegedly decreases based on a percentage, not a fixed number)

I suppose it might be a big deal if you never actually eat food to replenish it.

 

[Viata]

Please make reviewers list their top 5 or 10 favorite games of the last five years so people can tell at a glance if the reviewer has any sort of crossover taste

Was there even 10 great rpgs releaed in the last five years?

Definitely. But I said games, because the people who review here play mostly console non-rpgs and would list them if they were honest. They are big fans of Bioshock, metal Gear, and Pokeman, etc. If all the reviewers only like non-rpgs and console games it paints a picture of what this site values.

You could just send your review, then. You gotta force the reviews incline yourself.

 

[Lady_Error]

Salomonic (obvious) solution: Balance needs to be balanced - not too much of it and not too little.

 

[Lord Andre]

But your argument still basically boils down to "If you don't like what I like you're wrong." so....

Pretty much. It's been like that since the first 'thal carved a ?squirell? on the side of a cave and his two sapien friends started arguing over whether it looks like a rat or not.

I also enjoy being pedantic about it. It's fun.

 

[Lady_Error]

There was a time when I thought the constitution decrease was a lousy penalty, but it's not even that big of a deal since all it affects is how much vitality you get on level up

Apparently, CON works differently: http://grimoire.wiki/index.php/Attributes

• CON: Constitution

Carrying capacity for equipped armor and weapons (encumberance), resistance against some attacks (paralysis, disease, system attacks), determines the amount of spell points needed to restore the character's HP and vitality.

So if it gets too low due to resurrecting, then you will have encumberance on a fighter with a lot of armor. And I'm not sure, but apparently Raise Dead does not decrease CON, so it's probably a case of a good Resurerction spell and one with penalties.

 

[mogwaimon]

But your argument still basically boils down to "If you don't like what I like you're wrong." so....

Pretty much. It's been like that since the first 'thal carved a ?squirell? on the side of a cave and his two sapien friends started arguing over whether it looks like a rat or not.

I also enjoy being pedantic about it. It's fun.

I know many pedants. Always the most annoying to argue with but it's also the only time you get decent debates. You're alright, Lord Andre.

 

[Roguey]

There was a time when I thought the constitution decrease was a lousy penalty, but it's not even that big of a deal since all it affects is how much vitality you get on level up

Apparently, CON works differently: http://grimoire.wiki/index.php/Attributes

• CON: Constitution

Carrying capacity for equipped armor and weapons (encumberance), resistance against some attacks (paralysis, disease, system attacks), determines the amount of spell points needed to restore the character's HP and vitality.

So if it gets too low due to resurrecting, then you will have encumberance on a fighter with a lot of armor. And I'm not sure, but apparently Raise Dead does not decrease CON, so it's probably a case of a good Resurerction spell and one with penalties.

This is rather strange because I actually did test a character before and after death and nothing on the character sheet changed except the constitution number (definitely not the encumbrance number, and I didn't notice any discernible change on the resistance bars).

 

[Viata]

but apparently Raise Dead does not decrease CON,

It does. You can read people posting about it on steam and codex.

 

[Lady_Error]

There was a time when I thought the constitution decrease was a lousy penalty, but it's not even that big of a deal since all it affects is how much vitality you get on level up

Apparently, CON works differently: http://grimoire.wiki/index.php/Attributes

• CON: Constitution

Carrying capacity for equipped armor and weapons (encumberance), resistance against some attacks (paralysis, disease, system attacks), determines the amount of spell points needed to restore the character's HP and vitality.

So if it gets too low due to resurrecting, then you will have encumberance on a fighter with a lot of armor. And I'm not sure, but apparently Raise Dead does not decrease CON, so it's probably a case of a good Resurerction spell and one with penalties.

This is rather strange because I actually did test a character before and after death and nothing on the character sheet changed except the constitution number (definitely not the encumbrance number, and I didn't notice any discernible change on the resistance bars).

CON may be a different variable when dealing with afflictions: the resistance numbers determine whether you get one and CON determines how fast you can get out of it.

 

[Lhynn]

The intellectual unseriousness of the anti-balancers is proven by the fact that their arguments have no self-limitation. They stretch into infinity. When is a game unbalanced enough?

Oh shut up you ignorant twat. I have put forward a proposition against conventional wisdom in game design, which is: balance isnt important, as long as nothing is broken you dont need to address it.
I havent seen a single counter argument worth a shit.

Games like BG2, bloodlines, arcanum, fallout, planescape, and pretty much every game in the top 70 codexian RPGs, isnt balanced, nor did it strive to be, and a lot of them were outright broken beyond belief, and it never got in the way of enjoying the title. Which already proves my thesis.

MMOs, Mobas, and other forms of competitive games require balance to make victory or defeat be worth a shit, single player RPGs do not.

 

[DavidBVal]

but apparently Raise Dead does not decrease CON,

It does. You can read people posting about it on steam and codex.

I think the original release only removed CON when casting resurrection, not raise dead (opposite to D&D convention), then after an update both take 10 CON penalty.

 

[Fowyr]

Samhain horror fight seems designed to get you to use cosmic gate I think, considering you get it sometime earlier in the dungeon (argosyre or perhaps elsewhere?) but I digress

Yep. Just think, guys.
1) Your enemy is a cosmic horror.
2) St. George (though being fraud) apparently used Amulet Astrixus that is low-level damaging item (around 15 damage) against astral beings. In reality he used rat diplomacy, of course.
3) You can buy several bottles of Zephyr Cola in Chambers of the Waters - and thus strike first. You need max one bottle for the mercury fish puzzle. (or just catch it by hand if you are quick)
4) You can buy scroll of Cosmic Gate just before encountering Samhain Horror, upstairs.

 

[Iznaliu]

Definitely. But I said games, because the people who review here play mostly console non-rpgs and would list them if they were honest. They are big fans of Bioshock, metal Gear, and Pokeman, etc. If all the reviewers only like non-rpgs and console games it paints a picture of what this site values.

If you don't like it here, then leave.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

I made the same complains about game balance and stability and everyone ranked my post retarded. Now the full review comes out, and talks about first turn wipes, and bards being OPed. Virtue signalling on the Codex much?

 

[Latro]

The intellectual unseriousness of the anti-balancers is proven by the fact that their arguments have no self-limitation. They stretch into infinity. When is a game unbalanced enough?

Roguey ran into this problem, which may be the reason why he decided to become devil's advocate in this thread, because it's infuriating to deal with.

Let's say in one oldschool RPG, if a character dies, you can resurrect him with no permanent long-term penalty. OK, that was good, nobody had a problem with that. But now in Grimoire, if you resurrect a dead character, he loses CON. Complain about that? How dare you, evil balancer! I guess that other oldschool RPG got it wrong too. There's no limit to the purism. Burn the past!

It's similar to the position of the US Democratic Party on immigration. They say they're not for open borders, but they'll always take more immigrants, never less. How many immigrants is enough? 2 million a year? 5 million? 10 million? They'll never say.

tl;dr Contrary to popular belief, anti-balance = leftist mindset

This is the first time in about 2 years I've seen you actually talk about RPG mechanics outside of a shill post/kickstarter announcement.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Oh shut up you ignorant twat. I have put forward a proposition against conventional wisdom in game design, which is: balance isnt important, as long as nothing is broken you dont need to address it.
I havent seen a single counter argument worth a shit.

Maybe against conventional wisdom in game design, but in this forum it's kind of generic. We have a sarcastic sawyer's head balance button for christ's sake.

Also what could "nothing is broken" mean besides that at least some balancing exists?