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Incline Third party systems

Joined
Dec 17, 2013
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5,153
Back in the day, RPG studios typically used to develop their own engines for their games. Bioware made their famous Infinity Engine, which they used for their Baldur's Gate series, and also licensed to Black Isle Studios for Planescape: Torment and the Icewind Dale games. Black Isle created the Fallout engine (whatever it was called), and later, Troika used some simile of it for Arcanum. Troika also developed their own engine for ToEE. Origin was famous for creating new engines for each Ultima.

As games entered the 3D era, creating fully featured 3D engines was a much more significant investment, and gradually, RPGs started using stock engine from third parties, such as Unity, Gamebryo, Unreal Engine, and CryEngine. They still of course build up their own code libraries around the base engine, but it saves them a lot of work, and lets them use the work of other people more qualified in that area.

What I am wondering about is if it would make more sense to have third party developers for certain aspects of gameplay as well. Take combat for example. It is not a secret that the vast majority of combat in RPGs is absolutely horrible. Some of the greatest RPGs ever are guilty of this, including games such as PS:T, Ultima Underworld, Arcanum, Deus Ex, and many others. There are various reasons for this, but some of the most important ones are lack of resources and expertise.

RPGs are massive games, easily dwarfing most other genres. They must have a ton of content, fleshed out worlds, dialogue and storylines, characters and quests, choices and myriad of items. So naturally, because they must spread out their resources to cover the making of all of this, they will have a lot less left over for combat than say a first person shooter or a tactical squad game.

In addition to that, RPG developers are often people who are drawn to story-telling and dialogue, quests and choices and consequences, and deep game lore. Such people might not necessarily be the best at designing combat systems.

But imagine if there were third party developers dedicated entirely to creating easily integrated and in-depth combat systems. They would have let's say several modules (one for each popular game engine), that you could easily plug into your game. Maybe they would have different modules, one for first/third person action combat, one for isometric tactical combat. Maybe each of those would be handled by a different company.

The point is that this third party company or companies would dedicate all their time to making great combat systems. They could spend hundreds of times more resources on this than the average RPG studio, and in return, develop stuff that right now we can only dream about. Their tactical module would have hundreds of options that would make Jagged Alliance 2 look like a board game, and their action system would pretty much model HEMA combat so that it would look like a youtube video from lindybeige.

Most importantly, because they would constantly iterate over these systems, they could accept feedback from the people playing games with their modules, and contantly improve them. Unlike typical RPG studios, who often move on to different systems altogether, or go under, or ignore feedback like Bethesda.
 

Jaesun

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Why would any Publisher want to do this when the current system of development and content is already currently profitable?
 
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In order for this to work the third party companies would also have to design the character creation/development systems, since you can't just take a random combat framework and put your character system on top of it; All systems have to be designed together. Likewise, the setting shouldn't be developed in complete separation from the ruleset.

What I would like to see is certain studios developing ruleset/setting templates (maybe based on existing tabletop ones?) that can be used from game companies to produce content, similarly to how Dungeon Masters operate.
 
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Why would any Publisher want to do this when the current system of development and content is already currently profitable?

It wouldn't be for everybody maybe, but think of a studio like like Obsidian or Troika. These guys are really good at writing and creating interesting world/dialogue/plotlines/lore/quests, but absolutely suck at creating good combat systems (at least in a real game, excluding the ToEE combat demo). Something like this would allow them to focus on their area of expertise while still having great combat. And having great combat would make their games more marketable. Just think of Arcanum or Alpha Brotocol but with a good combat system.

In order for this to work the third party companies would also have to design the character creation/development systems, since you can't just take a random combat framework and put your character system on top of it; All systems have to be designed together. Likewise, the setting shouldn't be developed in complete separation from the ruleset.

What I would like to see is certain studios developing ruleset/setting templates (maybe based on existing tabletop ones?) that can be used from game companies to produce content, similarly to how Dungeon Masters operate.

Well, I am not saying these combat modules would be 100% complete. More likely, they d be like Unity/Unreal, having the base functionality but still allowing companies to customize stuff to their specific ruleset/setting. They could for example develop a strong system of tactical combat, including magic, but you could name your own spells, and define their exact stats within the overall system. For a more realistic action system, this would matter even less.
 
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The way I understand your idea its not possible as you cant separate hit mechanics(and related) from engine.

I am not by any means an expert on game engines, but I think it should be possible with some work. You basically build a generic model for combat based on a particular popular third party engine (Unity, Unreal, Cryengine, whatever). Then anybody using that engine for their game can integrate with your combat model by following some rules that you set out for animations for example. So they plug in their custom Unity animations/graphics into the combat module, but the actual combat movement and interactions will be in the combat module. To me, this seems entirely possible as long as some conventions are followed.

, Deus Ex
I wouldn't consider Deus Ex's combat horrible. Would you mind elaborating?

The AI was terrible until GMDX mod, and just the general movement and mechanics are pretty terrible, like the AI running side to side like chickens and so on.
 

Grumpy Grognard

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I am not by any means an expert on game engines, but I think it should be possible with some work. You basically build a generic model for combat based on a particular popular third party engine (Unity, Unreal, Cryengine, whatever). Then anybody using that engine for their game can integrate with your combat model by following some rules that you set out for animations for example. So they plug in their custom Unity animations/graphics into the combat module, but the actual combat movement and interactions will be in the combat module. To me, this seems entirely possible as long as some conventions are followed.

Don't get me wrong, I like the core of the problem you state and the core idea of the solution - but it's not technically feasible/worth it.

There are so many game-specific features and conventions - and thats before you get to cases like the melee combat system in Ultima Underworld (real-time, physics, action) being fundamentally different from how Deus Ex works. The closest I think you'll get is a base game engine used to create very similar (Pillars, Tyranny, Numenera) games.

That's not to say you can't build a combat system 'model' - say, on paper, or prototyped in an engine - but to prove that it's fun, functional & that it has decent dev pipelines (where is the data stored? how easy is it to make new abilities/enemies), you really need to just *make a game*. There's also already hundreds, maybe thousands of combat systems that you can use as a 'model' - wargames, pen and paper RPGs, etc.

I also think you may also have a fundamental misunderstanding of how game engines function. Animations and graphics are platform-agnostic, generally speaking. On the other hand, Unity uses C#, Unreal C++. These are two different programming languages, so writing something that plugs into both is overly time-consuming.

... and then - RPGs also tend to also have unique combat systems that are thematically consistent with the overall game design/lore/objectives.

Finally, using a third party developer to create a core system such as combat is incredibly risky. I wouldn't use one if it were free. The developers are not in-house. Their coding standards may differ wildly. They may not be able to provide support. You're better off just writing your own system. Just do the RPG genre a favour and try to build an original system.
 

Freddie

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I like basic idea, but instead of separate modules I would focus on feature sets of engines. It's not area I know well, but having good feature set like you described, easy to port for developers vision, would achieve a lot of where you are aiming at and create competition which then in turn would cause every engine feature set to improve.

That said, it's difficult for a layman to know what already exists in these engines, one reason being that most often we see only visual stuff, like how many fucking particles in that explosion or reflections or other shit. BioWare Montreal complained about feature set of Frostbyte was incomplete for the uses of their masterpiece ME: Andromeda, only to get couple of slaps from the upper management, first was statement was that EA is going to focus using Frostbyte in their future games and second was that while some were migrated to some other EA/BW studio, rest were given a boot, so it's not easy to get a picture how much feature sets actually are bottlenecks to begin with.
 

Sneaky Seal

Aurum Dust
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Sir, you ever heard of D&D and D&D-like? That is exactly 3rd party ruleset (or rather collection of rulesets) that allows the GMs to focus on the lore, story, quests, etc. Many games do use DnD or DnD-like combat systems: Dragon Age 1, KOTOR, Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny.

As for your idea, developing combat mechanics and ruleset is indeed a thing on its own, and I think there is no particular reason to not implement the system you describe, and you can always license D&D ruleset for your game. I assume there are other rulesets out there. It's just it is much easier to find/hire a guy with relevant experience. It also allows you to create some unique mechanics and rules (like we are merging card game and turn-based tactics in our game).
 

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