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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
The problem of no scaling (which I am for) is that there's an optimal route, challenge wise, to take. No scaling only reduces the challenge depending on the order you tackle them in. It never provides a constant challenge outside of that optimal route. There's a thread on the Obsidian forum discussing exactly how to go through the game for optimal and intended challenge. It creates a more logical and consistent world, though, which is the better variant. No level 100 rats compared to level 20 dragons. It also makes maps have long-term value by having different level enemies in them, making you return to the maps later. Twitcher 3 could've side-stepped this problem by populating high level zones with only logically high level enemies, so the scaling won't even be noticeable. There are ways to keep the difficulty consistent with no scaling regardless of route taken, like slow leveling, each level not providing a huge, but more gradual power increase, AI etc.
 

Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,076
Location
Azores Islands
I know, but why is this better than Pillars' artificial gods? It's different, I know, and provides a different range of possible ways to integrate them into various stories, but how is it better?

In my opinion the D&D lore is worse -- it forces the world into a frozen-in-amber state where nothing can ever change. All the big changes are in the remote past, and any crisis, however big, will end up in a new equilibrium indistinguishable from the previous one.

(N.b. I'm not talking about Dark Sun or such, those are completely different settings and very cool.)



Um no.* The Hindu gods are qualitatively no different from humans, subject to the cycle of samsara like everyone else. They just inhabit a different realm of it. There's no metaphysical reason Indra couldn't die and be reborn as something else; he would just be really fucking hard to kill.

*It's more complicated with the trimurti (Brahma, Vishnu, Siva), but discussing that and its relation to Para Brahman is a bit out of scope here IMO. In any case, the gods active in the world are subject to samsara. Besides which, there's no reason a similar Supreme Godhead couldn't exist in Eora, we just wouldn't know about it.



Okay. So I'm still not seeing your problem with the Eora gods as such. Yes the Council of Stars was dumb, but, again, that was a problem that was particular to the Pillars story, not to the pantheon as it is conceptualised.
According to ancient aliens, the hindu gods are either corporeal aliens come to earth to teach Hindus how to nuke each other in ancient times, or alien souls reincarnating in human bodies to teach humanity all the trick needed to make the interweb and Facebook.

Either would make for a better plot than what we got in PoE.
 

Colour Spray

Educated
Joined
Jul 7, 2017
Messages
91
(Reminds me of a flap around the attribute system early in the P1 beta. Originally, the origin was set to zero with every point in an attribute giving you a bonus. So e.g. INT 3 would give a bonus of 6% to duration. People howled, so Josh just set the zero point to 10, so INT 3 would give malus of -14% instead... but raised the "base" duration accordingly, so it ended up in exactly the same place. People cheered.)
Booo :argh:
Ehh, I'm not keen on zero-sum point buy in any case, but i guess at least this way you get to dip into negative values, so I can see there being some value to plus or minus 9 (or 10 in this case) be it purely psychological or no. It's kinda silly but i enjoy the aesthetic of the more arbitrary systems. Makes it feel more like your character when your 17 strength score doesn't automatically cause a 7 charisma dip, unless you're one of those kensai/mage playing types that can't help power-gaming.

Not that it ever caused me to dislike a game i would have otherwise enjoyed. At least with PoE they eschewed the 'only even numbers matter,' abomination that 3rd edition came up with. Although i can't help feeling like if the system was less based on multipliers there would be more room for growth into epic levels. :| It's like Lacrymas pointed out, even by level 10 you're so powerful that the balancing measure taken on potd is to try and perma-stun you; I can't imagine how broken it would be to extend the same thing to level 30 or 40, you'd have to be super conservative with item based bonuses.

I also think I prefer no-scaling, even if it lets you bend the system a little bit. It allows you to pick your own challenge, for one thing, and just because there's an optimal route, doesn't mean you would choose to follow it. I was reading some codexers lp of baldurs gate 2 where he had to clear the planar sphere early and it was pretty entertaining reading about how those vicious little hobbit bastards tore him a new one; shame all the pictures were broken though. ... It allows for peaks and valleys in difficulty, too; where being able to gib some kobold fuckers that traumatized you by peppering you with arrows in the nashkel mines is a preeetty good feeling. Which also avoids the feeling that everything is the same, but slightly different. Once you've demoralized the player with kobold archer rape, then later restored their faith with power-constrasting kobold mooks, you further get to puzzle the player when they meet a bunch of kobolds who are each individually named, and one is curiously wearing a robe, like a wizard, almost.

But conservative scaling is okay too, i guess. If you assume the game wouldn't pose a reasonable challenge without it. That kinda calls into question the rate of power-growth in the game if the developer can't curate challenging encounters in the order the player is expected to come across them, to me. At least they are offering each option, rather than forcing any particular one on you.

I guess it's like how game developer philosophy has changed over the years, where player inconvenience is seen as absolutely bad. An older game would expect you to want to explore the game world fully and adjust the difficulty of the critical path in accordance, rather than balance for the lowest amount of exploration and then adjust from there because a streamer or game reviewer only has 8 hours before they have to move on to the next game.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen
Witcher 3 scaling/leveling system is horrific. Basically the RPG systems of the game are completely undercut because level determines everything. It's not bethesda scaling at all (some enemies will be impossible), it's just that rather than skill or character building, character levels determine way, waaaay too much.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
But conservative scaling is okay too, i guess. If you assume the game wouldn't pose a reasonable challenge without it. That kinda calls into question the rate of power-growth in the game if the developer can't curate challenging encounters in the order the player is expected to come across them, to me. At least they are offering each option, rather than forcing any particular one on you.

That's the caveat, no scaling relies on good design on many levels, like encounters, character progression, xp gain, map population, AI, economy, consumable usage. It's absolutely the best case scenario if done right, even if there's an optimal route. A great dev will shrink the differences between the optimal and non-optimal paths. You killing the low-level kobolds after a bunch of levels is good because it shows that your character is progressing. It's interesting what route PoE2 will take, whether they'll design the game for no-scaling and then add scaling on top or the other way around. I expect it'll be the other way around and no-scaling will be a catastrophe.
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
Messages
6,908
Location
Devlet-i ʿAlīye-i ʿErdogānīye
Wait what? Unfit for Vailian Republic?

I am going to go ahead and assume this will have to do with factions, them not responding well if you do not follow their dress codes and what not. Interesting, I wonder if your background will play into it as well.
 

Sultan

Novice
Patron
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
42
Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Wait what? Unfit for Vailian Republic?

I am going to go ahead and assume this will have to do with factions, them not responding well if you do not follow their dress codes and what not. Interesting, I wonder if your background will play into it as well.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Hey, this is a cool mechanic. I hope there are other subclasses which make use of it. Cipher subclass "Dominatrix" who can only wear leather?
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
Hey, this is a cool mechanic. I hope there are other subclasses which make use of it. Cipher subclass "Dominatrix" who can only wear leather?

T6mZTdj.jpg
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
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Messages
16,153
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Wait what? Unfit for Vailian Republic?

I am going to go ahead and assume this will have to do with factions, them not responding well if you do not follow their dress codes and what not. Interesting, I wonder if your background will play into it as well.

What do I see - might these truly be... racial limitations on equipment?!

When we moved to the new data format (.xml)

Prepare for a crazy modding scene.
I was about to say the same.

Hey, this is a cool mechanic. I hope there are other subclasses which make use of it. Cipher subclass "Dominatrix" who can only wear leather?

T6mZTdj.jpg
TSR9179_500.jpeg
 

Quillon

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
5,214
What do I see - might these truly be... racial limitations on equipment?!

PoE is the least racist fantasy rpg out there :P Such soft limitations are cultural or based on orders and such. Seems they are slowly developing lore-gameplay synergy and are starting with paladins and priests I imagine. Reminds me of "class names being part of the lore" discussion some time back. We might see similar rules for new subclasses.
 

Colour Spray

Educated
Joined
Jul 7, 2017
Messages
91

Minoletta's minor missles is finally fixed. :salute:
Sounds like they're trying to position it as a spell which is most effective against magic users whose defenses have been brought down or worn off, so i certainly approve of that. It more firmly solidifies its niche as a spell which you use to snipe enemies that absolutely need to die asap. Also spells which grow as you level are always absurd amounts of fun. Reminds me of playing a meta-magic sorcerer in NwN, or things like teeth or charged bolt in diablo 2, which blizzard bizarrely forgot to include in the 3rd game.

They should do flame-arrow next, but do it properly. Actually animate each individual arrow and to distinguish it from minor missles allow each arrow to target different enemies (as a high-level spell); so that it would be a targeted aoe spell with the upside that it doesn't waste its damage when fewer targets are present. Hmm, maybe that's just a feat you would give to rangers instead.
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
They should do flame-arrow next, but do it properly. Actually animate each individual arrow and to distinguish it from minor missles allow each arrow to target different enemies (as a high-level spell); so that it would be a targeted aoe spell with the upside that it doesn't waste its damage when fewer targets are present. Hmm, maybe that's just a feat you would give to rangers instead.

Copy Isaac's Missile Storm from NWN? :lol:
 

Colour Spray

Educated
Joined
Jul 7, 2017
Messages
91
Good ideas bear repeating. :mad: It's like, the scientific method of game design.

(I hadn't actually made that connection when i posted that reply. :hahano:)
 

Fry

Arcane
Joined
Aug 29, 2013
Messages
1,922
Sawyer trolling

 

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