Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Maculo]

Oh, Thaos was wrong on every one of his points and a massive hypocrite to boot, that's not in question :p He was wrong even before the gods existed and is even more wrong in hindsight. That doesn't fix the problem of where the gods are placed in a dramatic sense now that Thaos is gone. What is their function in the story going forward? The least dumb idea I can think of is that they are something like the laws of physics, they allow the universe to exist, without them everything will end. We have no proof of this, however, because when Eothas died nothing happeened to the world, we saw that the Hollowborn crisis is not due to his death. Maybe he never truly died, though, which brings us to the no proof thing.

Personally, I think that depends on the god. Now that I think of it, the gods are really inconsistent.

• Eothas and Woedica technically took an active role in the Drywood. Eothas may not technically count, because PoE begins after he took mortal form and started a war. As far as gods and mythology go, I cannot think of any myths where a god takes a host to rule a country and start a war. I am certainly no scholar on religion or mythology, but I thought Eothas and Woedica did not fit the typical mold of a Greek god relative to say Magran or Galawain.
  
• Ondra dropped a meteor on an ancient civilization to destroy its secrets and unleashed the Eyeless (does that constitute dramatic effect?).
  
• Abydon appeared in physical form to block said meteor. Moreover, if you "rehabilitate" Abydon, it sparks interest anew in exploring ruins, and so he had some subconscious influence on the people. The latter affect reminds me more of the subtle influence that the chaos gods have in Warhammer or perhaps divine inspiration.
  
• Magran passed along the knowledge to make the godhammer and tried to kill Durance, but nothing more direct. Both she and Galawain seemed to indicate that their role as gods would soon be over.
  
• Berath acted through Bleak Walkers, and even brings Raederic back from the dead.
  
• If you align with Hylea, an abnormal amount of twins are born in the Dyrwood.
  
• Wael actively seeks to create more mysteries and teach through mysteries, even at the expense of his own followers. Hirvias' relation to Wael arguably is a parable about journey.
  
• Skaen manifests just to tell you to side with Woedica or to grant his followers boons (Skaen temple).

Each god seems to show power/influence in vastly different ways throughout PoE and the White March.

Getting back on topic, my personal take is that there is some entity or cycle behind the scenes that even the Engwithans (however you spell it) were not aware of. Eothas made the first move when he took a mortal host and began to gather an army. Why else would a god need an army? Maybe Woedica/Thaos/Ondra are correct and animancy does create some unforeseen consequences.

I can tell you this, any time I tried to guess a story outcome, I ended up 100% wrong. So everything I just wrote will not come to pass.

 

[FreeKaner]

Berath acted through Bleak Walkers,

When?

and even brings Raederic back from the dead.

That's what Raedric claims but I don't think it's true, especially considering in Berath's quest you kill two figures who are past their due. Bringing back Raedric would be opposite of what he stands for. In case of Raedric it feels more like he just became a regular old fampyr because he refused to let go, kind of like banshees.

 

[Prime Junta]

If you actually talk to them on a regular basis it eventually becomes evident they aren't real gods.

... intrigued ...

Tell me more. How? And what would real gods be like?

 

[Jimmious]

Admittedly, if the lore of PoE sparks up such conversations it can't be that bad, right?

 

[fobia]

Admittedly, if the lore of PoE sparks up such conversations it can't be that bad, right?

That much is evident. Most citicism goes along the lines: "I don't like the new made up names, why can't I have kobolds?!!?!".

 

[Lacrymas]

Each god seems to show power/influence in vastly different ways throughout PoE and the White March.

This wasn't in question. What was in question is their supposed divinity and what it means. They having such immense power, but not being gods creates a slew of narrative problems that I already outlined. It's also not about them creating "dramatic moments", they certainly can, that doesn't mean they should or they doing so is justified from a story-telling perspective. If they aren't gods and we don't get a clear dividing line between mortals and them, they are just pointless as characters (they can still be symbols religions form around, they don't need to physically exist for that), the meteors and whatever can be natural disasters for all the story is concerned. Religious wars can happen without them having a hand in them, just like in real life. They already showed a willingness to help us, which creates even more problems.

 

[Prime Junta]

This wasn't in question. What was in question is their supposed divinity and what it means. They having such immense power, but not being gods creates a slew of narrative problems that I already outlined. It's also not about them creating "dramatic moments", they certainly can, that doesn't mean they should or they doing so is justified from a story-telling perspective. If they aren't gods and we don't get a clear dividing line between mortals and them, they are just pointless as characters (they can still be symbols religions form around, they don't need to physically exist for that), the meteors and whatever can be natural disasters for all the story is concerned. Religious wars can happen without them having a hand in them, just like in real life. They already showed a willingness to help us, which creates even more problems.

I don't see this. They sure act a lot like the deities in D&D and most similar fantasy fare. How does the fact that they're artificial invalidate any of it?

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't see this. They sure act a lot like the deities in D&D and most similar fantasy fare. How does the fact that they're artificial invalidate any of it?

The difference is that D&D gods have a reason to exist, they are the ones who created and control the world and their deaths have proven to create disasters, like that time Mystra died for a split second. If Shar ceases to exist, then so does darkness itself, because she IS darkness. This is a dividing line. It's not about being artificial, I already explained to Morality Games that this isn't the problem and it's largely irrelevant. Not to mention that D&D gods are a lot and their machinations and drama create conflict in the mortal sphere, too. They are closer to the Greek gods than PoE's are.

 

[Prime Junta]

The difference is that D&D gods have a reason to exist, they are the ones who created and control the world and their deaths have proven to create disasters, like that time Mystra died for a split second. If Shar ceases to exist, then so does darkness itself, because she IS darkness.

Nah, another deity would just step into her shoes. That sort of thing has happened a lot in D&D. Sure there might be a major disaster associated with the event... a bit like with Abydon's death for example.

It's not about being artificial, I already explained to Morality Games that this isn't the problem and it's largely irrelevant. Not to mention that D&D gods are a lot and their machinations and drama create conflict in the mortal sphere, too. They are closer to the Greek gods than PoE's are.

Sure they might be more like Greek gods than PoE's are, but why should the Greek pantheon be the only valid template for it? The Hindu pantheon is pretty different for example -- they're sending avatars down all the time, and these avatars do all kinds of stuff between each other and mortals.

I think the Eothas/Waidwen/Magran/Godhammer story was rather cool and imaginative actually, as background lore goes, and shows the kind of potential Eora's gods might have. The writing in the game itself left a lot to be desired of course, the Council of the Stars was a dumb twist for example. But these are problems specific to the P1 story, not to the metaphysics of the gods themselves.

 

[Lacrymas]

They were still the ones who created the world, however, so they have an apriori reason to exist, no matter if any other gods can step in and even then that means that the gods have to exist, no matter if they can take each other's portfolio. This is actually a plot insulation thing, so players can kill gods without fucking up the universe, which I'm not against. I'm not saying the Greek gods are the only template, but they are a template that is proven to work. The Hindu gods are also something primal that the world's existence depends on. Yes, the Saint's War thing is great, but it doesn't concern the gods as characters, but as symbols. Gods act through mortals and create conflict that we can interact with and join without it feeling predetermined or dumb, Magran gifting the Godhammer bomb is reminiscent of Prometheus gifting the flame. The Council of Stars was dumb.

 

[Prime Junta]

They were still the ones who created the world, however, so they have an apriori reason to exist, no matter if any other gods can step in and even then that means that the gods have to exist, no matter if they can take each other's portfolio. This is actually a plot insulation thing, so players can kill gods without fucking up the universe, which I'm not against.

I know, but why is this better than Pillars' artificial gods? It's different, I know, and provides a different range of possible ways to integrate them into various stories, but how is it better?

In my opinion the D&D lore is worse -- it forces the world into a frozen-in-amber state where nothing can ever change. All the big changes are in the remote past, and any crisis, however big, will end up in a new equilibrium indistinguishable from the previous one.

(N.b. I'm not talking about Dark Sun or such, those are completely different settings and very cool.)

I'm not saying the Greek gods are the only template, but they are a template that is proven to work. The Hindu gods are also something primal that the world's existence depends on.

Um no.* The Hindu gods are qualitatively no different from humans, subject to the cycle of samsara like everyone else. They just inhabit a different realm of it. There's no metaphysical reason Indra couldn't die and be reborn as something else; he would just be really fucking hard to kill.

*It's more complicated with the trimurti (Brahma, Vishnu, Siva), but discussing that and its relation to Para Brahman is a bit out of scope here IMO. In any case, the gods active in the world are subject to samsara. Besides which, there's no reason a similar Supreme Godhead couldn't exist in Eora, we just wouldn't know about it.

Yes, the Saint's War thing is great, but it doesn't concern the gods as characters, but as symbols. Gods act through mortals and create conflict that we can interact with and join without it feeling predetermined or dumb, Magran gifting the Godhammer bomb is reminiscent of Prometheus gifting the flame. The Council of Stars was dumb.

Okay. So I'm still not seeing your problem with the Eora gods as such. Yes the Council of Stars was dumb, but, again, that was a problem that was particular to the Pillars story, not to the pantheon as it is conceptualised.

 

[Lacrymas]

Okay. So I'm still not seeing your problem with the Eora gods as such.

That doesn't matter from a dramatic perspective. If they are simply characters, their involvement will be either pointless if they don't do anything (which will be the better choice, but Obsidian already made the wrong one) or they will be literal deus ex machinas, using their powers to will away problems, just like in PoE - they use their powers to safely transport you to Sun-in-Shadow. That means there will never be a sense of drama or danger in an overall story because there's always the chance for them to use their powers at your disposal. Making them plot insulation or creating massive plot holes (as in "why didn't they help at that particular time?"). Not to mention that static characters with no arc are bad writing.

You might say "they might pick and choose when to help", but that makes their presence arbitrary and random, just to be used when the author has written himself into a corner. As readers, this changes our perspective on the story in a bad way.

 

[Prime Junta]

I believe you have just invalidated the entire body of Hindu mythology in one fell swoop. Nice work there.

 

[Maculo]

Each god seems to show power/influence in vastly different ways throughout PoE and the White March.

This wasn't in question. What was in question is their supposed divinity and what it means. They having such immense power, but not being gods creates a slew of narrative problems that I already outlined. It's also not about them creating "dramatic moments", they certainly can, that doesn't mean they should or they doing so is justified from a story-telling perspective. If they aren't gods and we don't get a clear dividing line between mortals and them, they are just pointless as characters (they can still be symbols religions form around, they don't need to physically exist for that), the meteors and whatever can be natural disasters for all the story is concerned. Religious wars can happen without them having a hand in them, just like in real life. They already showed a willingness to help us, which creates even more problems.

Arguably, the dividing line is that they can manipulate or control the cycle of reincarnation. The cycle of reincarnation is a constant in Eora, and yet the gods can change that. Specifically, the gods can prevent reincarnation and trap souls (where the elf chick was trapped). Alternatively, Hylea can cause twin births (more souls being reborn), and we even have a god of entropy of souls (forget his name). The Eora pantheon did not create the world or the cycle, but they did assume a gate keeper role over the cycle of reincarnation. With respect to divinity, they fall more in line with some Buddhist sects, where there are enlightened entities that exist outside the reincarnation cycle and that that seek to uplift every soul. Alternatively, I think there are Hindu gods that exist within the cycle (i.e., they can die and be reborn as gods), but Prime Junta beat me to this example.

Ultimately, I can see your point about narrative issues, but the gods in PoE were borderline indifferent, with the exception of two: Eothas and Woedica. Outside of those two, most of the gods agreed to stay out of mortal affairs. With the Court of Stars, we had to go to them at a special location in the middle of fuck nowhere, and not the other way around. The Court of Stars was disapointing, but the contacting these gods for help was not a simple endeavor. Ondra only spoke to you at the Temple stone.

Two counter points are Wael and Skaen who did make contact with you outside of the Court of Stars.

Berath acted through Bleak Walkers,

When?

and even brings Raederic back from the dead.

That's what Raedric claims but I don't think it's true, especially considering in Berath's quest you kill two figures who are past their due. Bringing back Raedric would be opposite of what he stands for. In case of Raedric it feels more like he just became a regular old fampyr because he refused to let go, kind of like banshees.

Assuming I am not mixing up lore and gods, I thought Berath sent Bleak Walkers from time to time. In fact, I thought there was a story where Berath takes form as a Bleak Walker.

As for Raedric, it never occured to me that he was wrong and just a "regular" fampyr. That does make a lot more sense.

 

[Lacrymas]

Do we have proof of this? I don't remember what Iovara said, did she say she was trapped by the gods? Animancers can also conceivably control souls by trapping them in bodies, but I guess that's more invasive? What I would do at this point is recontextualize their worship and the effect they have on the world. I'd do away with Rymrgand's entropy and make the souls which fracture "feed" the god/s they worshiped while they were alive (the more gods you worship the less power you give each one). When they have comparable power nothing extraordinary happens in the world, but when that equilibrium is denied in some way (f.e. massive killings of specific cults or followers of a god, or natural disasters or whatever) the world starts to change depending on the god's agenda.

This makes their worship and spreading of faith meaningful, ties them even better with souls, gives even more conflict between opposing faiths and makes the gods more than just ornaments or problem-solving machines, it creates an obvious divide between mortals and gods, and justifies their physical existence. It might also go as far as that they can't affect or help anyone without being empowered in such a way, reducing the chance they are going to be used as deus ex machinas. Not to mention that the ground-work is already laid out, by empowering a specific god with the end-o-tron 3000 stuff happens, like more twins being born out of Hylea's empowerment.

 

[Prime Junta]

With respect to divinity, they fall more in line with some Buddhist sects, where there are enlightened entities that exist outside the reincarnation cycle and that that seek to uplift every soul.

.... can't resist nitpicking ....

Bodhisattvas don't exist outside the cycle of samsara; they choose to remain within it until all beings have been liberated.

 

[Prime Junta]

Do we have proof of this? I don't remember what Iovara said, did she say she was trapped by the gods?

Uh... did you pay attention to Thaos at all?

Spoiler

Woedica was shepherding his soul all through his incarnations, causing him to awake fully to his previous life every time.

 

[Lacrymas]

I just don't remember, that's why I asked.

 

[Maculo]

To my memory, Iovara said that the only way to escape was to express faith in the gods. Only then would they free you and allow you to reincarnate.

Animancy is interesting, because it may eventually strip away the distinction or the need for gods, based on what I remember from Galawain and Magran at the Court of Stars. Another potential counter point is Thaos.

With respect to divinity, they fall more in line with some Buddhist sects, where there are enlightened entities that exist outside the reincarnation cycle and that that seek to uplift every soul.

.... can't resist nitpicking ....

Bodhisattvas don't exist outside the cycle of samsara; they choose to remain within it until all beings have been liberated.

Nitpick away, I am borderline ignorant when it comes to religious concepts and texts.

 

[Maculo]

Do we have proof of this? I don't remember what Iovara said, did she say she was trapped by the gods?

Uh... did you pay attention to Thaos at all?

Spoiler

Woedica was shepherding his soul all through his incarnations, causing him to awake fully to his previous life every time.

Wait, was it Woedica that allowed Thaos to reincarnate with his memories? I thought he could do that on his own, and he just worked closely with Woedica, because they were willing to bend the rules to defend the status quo.

Crap, I spared Thaos' soul, because I thought his animancy knowledge was too valuable to lose, but if it was just Woedica...damn it.

 

[Prime Junta]

Wait, was it Woedica that allowed Thaos to reincarnate with his memories? I thought he could do that on his own, and he just worked closely with Woedica, because they were willing to bend the rules to defend the status quo.

I wish I could quote the specific passage but yeah, pretty sure it was Woedica. Perk of being her Chosen.

 

[Grunker]

Is it generic or bad cos its different? Decide!

---

There should be an option to only UPscale, seems like the best of both worlds - avoids lowering challenge and and boring shitstomps.

Very good idea, you should suggest it to Josh

 

[AwesomeButton]

I think that's how Witcher 3's "enemy scaling" works, it only scales up those enemies which are lower level than you. I haven't tried it though, just read about it here.

 

[Lacrymas]

Twitcher 3's scaling works a bit differently. Enemies don't scale to your level, but to the level of the zone. So you can still have a level bajillion rat who takes more hits to kill and deal more damage than even the most feared and powerful mythological creature, just because the devs chose a zone its in to be a high level one.

 

[Prime Junta]

"Only scaling up" doesn't make any difference. It's still scaling within a band, it's just that you set the origin on the scale differently. Difference is aesthetic only.

For example, if your base level for an area is 4 and you allow it to scale (only) up by 4 levels, you end up with a band from 4-8. This is exactly the same as setting the base level to 6 and allowing it to scale up or down by 2 levels, also a band from 4-8. Although I'll grant that "our difficulty only scales up" sounds considerably more hardcore.

(Reminds me of a flap around the attribute system early in the P1 beta. Originally, the origin was set to zero with every point in an attribute giving you a bonus. So e.g. INT 3 would give a bonus of 6% to duration. People howled, so Josh just set the zero point to 10, so INT 3 would give malus of -14% instead... but raised the "base" duration accordingly, so it ended up in exactly the same place. People cheered.)