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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Quillon

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I thought the way they fit the undead into their soul metaphysics was pretty good actually.

The main thing that annoys me about Pillars lore is those fucking Engwithans, they're everywhere, and with their soul-tech they're bound to eclipse any other ancient culture you might come across (the folks who built Neketaka for example).

Also having an actually-existing pantheon of gods that's global in scope but pretty small in number puts a major crimp on exploring other cultures. There's no chance of coming across something like, say, Aztecs offering still-beating hearts of captured enemies to Mictlantecuchtli because we already know there isn't a Mictlantecuchtli in the pantheon. There's also no room for beings of stature between gods and mortals -- demons and angels as it were. Best you can do is archmages or the likes of Thaos, which is pretty small.

I'm kinda sorta almost hoping they'll retcon some shit to make room for this kind of thing. Can't see any elegant way of doing it at this point though, they should've worked that into the P1 background story.
Nothing prevents other civilizations from worshipping the same gods under different names. And the gods let them have different rituals for some reasons of their own.

Do they have tho? Believe in one of these line up of 11 and call them something else? Can't some folk in a remote village worship some god that is not "real" nor engwithan made because of whatever just like any religion IRL? :P
 

Sizzle

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They could, but this is a world where, unlike our own, the Gods are absolutely real (man-made or not, that is irrelevant), and they actively (some more than others) show off their powers/meddle in the affairs of mortals.

In a world such as this, why should you (no matter how remote they may be, it's obvious the Deities manifest their influence all over Eora) worship a non-existing deity, when you have several proven deities before you?
 

Quillon

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Maybe the proven deities ignored that remote village, they are kith-made after all :P

Tho yeah my initial thought after reading Junta's original post was different interpretations of the same gods or gods themselves present themselves differently to some folk since they are more involved and can act on their whims often.
 

Lacrymas

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My question still stands - how would oonga-boonga aborigines know about the "official" pantheon? They can also know about them but choose to worship stones or dirt, or something like that.
 

Prime Junta

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The gods appear to have ways to make themselves known. Wael talks to the Watcher quite early on.
 

Sizzle

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Visions or manifestations from those gods?

Don't forget that the reason the Engwithians created those gods was so there wouldn't be other "fake" gods and worship and religious strife/wars over worshiping them, but just the 11 "true" ones.

Considering that was the main purpose behind their creation, it isn't that big of a stretch to think the Pantheon was compelled/programmed in some way to make their presence known to everyone in Eora, even the isolated communities.

And I still think that, when presented with actual, powerful, irrefutable deities, most cultures would give up animism and such, and only worship them.
 

Lacrymas

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Yeah, I don't think the PCs experiences are a normal thing for everyone. We have no proof whatsoever that the gods reveal themselves to every culture in the world, let alone to everyone individually. Don't forget that Iovara and Thaos might be lying to further their agendas.
 

Lacrymas

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Even if they are indeed programmed to appear to as many people and cultures as possible, each one of them can interpret them differently. The "strength through adversity and transformation" of Magran can manifest as ritual physical change in the body, like piercings, tattoos and even extreme cases like hacking off parts of the body.
 

Sizzle

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Sure. Durance speaks of this as well - how many (in his mind) supposed Magranites don't really get her teachings.

And I agree, it would be fun to see how more primitive cultures interpret their dogma. Hope this gets explored in PoE2.
 

Maculo

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This discussion of undead in PoE reminds me of the very interesting Developer Diary/KS update they made on the subject of undead in Eora. It's a shame this lore wasn't used anywhere in the game - the only way to learn it is by reading the KS update, I think.

I also was disapointed that the Undead and degeneration were not more of a focus in PoE, and I do not mean Undead enemies. I remember some characters in Heritage Hill that touched on it, but not the extent I was hoping for. Outside of that, there was mini-boss in Endless Paths that sat on a throne on top of the jade hand.

I think that would make an interesting character or game mechanic (degeneration). I was surprised Obsidian did not think of a character/companion that dealt with flesh eating and degeneration. I know that runs the risk of creating an edgy vampire, but I was thinking more along the lines of a zombie. Still, I think the undead husk/degeneration has a lot of potential.
 

Sizzle

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Maculo There were a couple of quests/characters that expanded on undeath a bit - A Voice From the Past and The Theorems of Pandgram, but nothing too in depth.

Which is a shame. Like you said, it showed promise.

Also, I felt that the Devil of Caroc could have been used for something like that (I expected there would potentially be an option to transfer her essence into an undead husk. It would have presented an interesting dilemma).
 

AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Plot twist - there were gods outside of the eleven all along,older, stronger gods, and the people who happened to be worshipping the right gods were the ooga-bonga tribe living in mud and dressed in grass.
 

Sizzle

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T'would be nice if something like that happened.

The way it is now, if we disregard the kith-made and infighting aspects of Eora's Pantheon, they're just not that of an interesting group of characters (except maybe Woedica. No wonder, considering Ziets came up with her), with most of the major plot points revolving around them in some way or another.

What I'm trying to say is - I really hope they manage to do more with them, seeing as they'll continue to be so important.
 

Lacrymas

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The problem of turning a god into a character is that it reduces the sense of their divinity. There was a book in PoE which told a story involving Galawain and either Magran or Hylea (I forgot which one) where they were fucking or something and just doing normal, people things. Maybe discussing their portfolios. At that point their divinity was all but irrelevant and pointless. As far as I know and can remember, the Greek pantheon never did this, they were either messing up mortals' lives or enacting grand plans among each other (like Zeus punishing Aphrodite by having her marry Hephaestus, Hera being jealous of Zeus' sexual conquests and screwing up mortals like Io). They were at times symbols and representations of their portfolios and at times the actual portfolios (i.e. Zeus is literally lightning and the sky).

There needs to be a dividing line between mortals and the gods, otherwise there is no point from a dramatic and artistic perspective. There might be a power divide, but not much else and that is not enough. Remember the incident in Twin Elms where you talk to the gods, they were more like a council trying to convince you of different agendas rather than divine beings. Zeus would never engage in such a conversation with a mortal, that's absurd. Imagine even the Christian God having a pleasant conversation with you trying to convince you that it's right and you should do what it's saying. Absolutely bonkers.
 
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Sizzle

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Those scaling options sound pretty good.

And it looks like they'll avoid the "Epic Gnolls" problem of MoTB :D
 
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
The problem of turning a god into a character is that it reduces the sense of their divinity. There was a book in PoE which told a story involving Galawain and either Magran or Hylea (I forgot which one) where they were fucking or something and just doing normal, people things. Maybe discussing their portfolios. At that point their divinity was all but irrelevant and pointless. As far as I know and can remember, the Greek pantheon never did this, they were either messing up mortals' lives or enacting grand plans among each other (like Zeus punishing Aphrodite by having her marry Hephaestus, Hera being jealous of Zeus' sexual conquests and screwing up mortals like Io). They were at times symbols and representations of their portfolios and at times the actual portfolios (i.e. Zeus is literally lightning and the sky).

There needs to be a dividing line between mortals and the gods, otherwise there is no point from a dramatic and artistic perspective. There might be a power divide, but not much else and that is not enough. Remember the incident in Twin Elms where you talk to the gods, they were more like a council trying to convince you of different agendas rather than divine beings. Zeus would never engage in such a conversation with a mortal, that's absurd. Imagine even the Christian God having a pleasant conversation with you trying to convince you that it's right and you should do what it's saying. Absolutely bonkers.

The gods are fake gods, though. The illusion of them being divine is a carefully manipulated perception that comes from their apparently miraculous power over Kith society.

If you actually talk to them on a regular basis it eventually becomes evident they aren't real gods.
 

Parabalus

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Is it generic or bad cos its different? Decide!

---





There should be an option to only UPscale, seems like the best of both worlds - avoids lowering challenge and and boring shitstomps.

Those scaling options sound pretty good.

And it looks like they'll avoid the "Epic Gnolls" problem of MoTB :D

Found them endearing myself, if you as a random human (+ NPCs) can hit epic levels, why shouldn't gnolls? Égalité!

There needs to be a dividing line between mortals and the gods, otherwise there is no point from a dramatic and artistic perspective. There might be a power divide, but not much else and that is not enough. Remember the incident in Twin Elms where you talk to the gods, they were more like a council trying to convince you of different agendas rather than divine beings. Zeus would never engage in such a conversation with a mortal, that's absurd. Imagine even the Christian God having a pleasant conversation with you trying to convince you that it's right and you should do what it's saying. Absolutely bonkers.

Potraying gods to be just as clueless/human as humans seems like one of those trope subversions which make Obsidian highly praised around these parts, I'd like to see it accented more. In PoE they give a petty feuding plebs vibe.
 

Lacrymas

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The gods are fake gods, though. The illusion of them being divine is a carefully manipulated perception that comes from their apparently miraculous power over Kith society.

If you actually talk to them on a regular basis it eventually becomes evident they aren't real gods.

That doesn't matter from a dramatic perspective. If they are simply characters, their involvement will be either pointless if they don't do anything (which will be the better choice, but Obsidian already made the wrong one) or they will be literal deus ex machinas, using their powers to will away problems, just like in PoE - they use their powers to safely transport you to Sun-in-Shadow. That means there will never be a sense of drama or danger in an overall story because there's always the chance for them to use their powers at your disposal. Making them plot insulation or creating massive plot holes (as in "why didn't they help at that particular time?"). Not to mention that static characters with no arc are bad writing.

This might've "worked" (it was actually condemned as the work of uncreative authors, even by Aristotle) in Greek tragedy where the drama which ended in a deus ex machina wasn't important, what was important was teaching the audience some kind of moral lesson and even then they offered wisdom, not powers. The conflict was there to facilitate the preaching at the end. The most serious and mature works in the Greek canon don't include a deus ex machina. So it's a lose-lose situation in PoE's case, if they help they are plot insulation, if they don't they are pointless from a dramatic and story-telling perspective. Unless they go the preachy route where they dispense "wisdom", but it will be extremely cheap. You might say "they might pick and choose when to help", but that makes their presence arbitrary and random, just to be used when the author has written himself into a corner. As readers, this changes our perspective on the story in a bad way.

One contradictory example which comes to mind is the Illiad, AFAIK it's the only example. The gods do act as humans and intervene on behalf of them (Zeus granting Hector the strength to kill), Aphrodite even having a temper tantrum against Helen, calling her a bitch and warning her not to anger her because she'd start hating her as much as she loves her etc. I don't know the justification for this, it appears as if the gods' behaviors are explaining the humans' in the Illiad itself. If I had to guess, they represent the tumultuous emotions and actions of the humans. Since they aren't at peace, the gods aren't as well. They aren't actually "helping" the mortals, they are exacerbating and working in concert with their already inherent traits. But that's just an off-my-head thing. I don't think this applies to PoE, but it's a thing to consider.


Potraying gods to be just as clueless/human as humans seems like one of those trope subversions which make Obsidian highly praised around these parts, I'd like to see it accented more. In PoE they give a petty feuding plebs vibe.

This smacks more of not understanding drama than a trope subversion. They might serve as a warning to what happens when you give fools too much power, but that's it.
 
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Maculo

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The gods are fake gods, though. The illusion of them being divine is a carefully manipulated perception that comes from their apparently miraculous power over Kith society.

If you actually talk to them on a regular basis it eventually becomes evident they aren't real gods.

That doesn't matter from a dramatic perspective. If they are simply characters, their involvement will be either pointless if they don't do anything (which will be the better choice, but Obsidian already made the wrong one) or they will be literal deus ex machinas, using their powers to will away problems, just like in PoE - they use their powers to safely transport you to Sun-in-Shadow. That means there will never be a sense of drama or danger in an overall story because there's always the chance for them to use their powers at your disposal. Making them plot insulation or creating massive plot holes (as in "why didn't they help at that particular time?"). Not to mention that static characters with no arc are bad writing.

This might've "worked" (it was actually condemned as the work of uncreative authors, even by Aristotle) in Greek tragedy where the drama which ended in a deus ex machina wasn't important, what was important was teaching the audience some kind of moral lesson and even then they offered wisdom, not powers. The conflict was there to facilitate the preaching at the end. The most serious and mature works in the Greek canon don't include a deus ex machina. So it's a lose-lose situation in PoE's case, if they help they are plot insulation, if they don't they are pointless from a dramatic and story-telling perspective. Unless they go the preachy route where they dispense "wisdom", but it will be extremely cheap. You might say "they might pick and choose when to help", but that makes their presence arbitrary and random, just to be used when the author has written himself into a corner. As readers, this changes our perspective on the story in a bad way.

One contradictory example which comes to mind is the Illiad, AFAIK it's the only example. The gods do act as humans and intervene on behalf of them (Zeus granting Hector the strength to kill), Aphrodite even having a temper tantrum against Helen, calling her a bitch and warning her not to anger her because she'd start hating her as much as she loves her etc. I don't know the justification for this, it appears as if the gods' behaviors are explaining the humans' in the Illiad itself. If I had to guess, they represent the tumultuous emotions and actions of the humans. Since they aren't at peace, the gods aren't as well. They aren't actually "helping" the mortals, they are exacerbating and working in concert with their already inherent traits. But that's just an off-my-head thing. I don't think this applies to PoE, but it's a thing to consider.

I would disagree with respect to one matter: it proves that Thaos was wrong, or at least his system was too flawed to persist. Thaos designed these gods to be true gods in every sense of the word and more importantly be a "civilizing" or moral force for good. Yet, Eora pantheon utterly fails. Consider the following:
  • The gods decided to step back from the world, which completely defeats the purpose.
  • Some of the gods (Galawain, Magran) are already discussing a "post-god" era where people rise above the need for gods. That was not in Thaos' grand scheme at all.
  • Eothas and Magran created religious fanatics that started wars, purges, and pogroms, which Thaos wanted to end in the first place.
  • The only god that remotely followed Thaos' plan was Woedica, and Thaos had to sacrifice the souls of children to give Woedica a boost. The added joke is that Thaos used child sacrifices as an example for why the pre-pantheon civilization sucked, and yet he is doing the exact same thing to perpetuate his own system.
  • Eothas took human form, started several wars, tried to create its own kingdom, and later died to a "man-made" invention.
 

Lacrymas

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Oh, Thaos was wrong on every one of his points and a massive hypocrite to boot, that's not in question :p He was wrong even before the gods existed and is even more wrong in hindsight. That doesn't fix the problem of where the gods are placed in a dramatic sense now that Thaos is gone. What is their function in the story going forward? The least dumb idea I can think of is that they are something like the laws of physics, they allow the universe to exist, without them everything will end. We have no proof of this, however, because when Eothas died nothing happened to the world, we saw that the Hollowborn crisis is not due to his death. Maybe he never truly died, though, which brings us to the no proof thing.
 
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