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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
It's not like there's a reason to return to most maps in PoE, anyway.

The bear cave and the Drake Bounty in Valewood.
Returning to Aufra in Gilded Vale after visiting Ranga .
Picking up the Larder Door in Gilded Vale after dealing with the Bandits.
The two mid-level encounters in Magran's Fork.
The scroll of Wael quest and the Forest Lurker bounty in Black Meadow.
Defeating undead Raedric in Raedric's Hold.
The Vailian trading company quest in Anslog's Compass.

Almost every area before reaching Caed Nua in Act I has a reason to return to it at a later date, or a quest that involves multiple maps, and I don't think it would be hard to compose a similar list for areas that come in Act II and Act III.

These, with the exception of Raedric and Aufra, I guess, are all trivialities that could've been put in some other map further down the line. Especially the bounties. Valewood, Larder Door and Magran's Fork are one clump of locations, like SoD, you can complete while you are there, I don't know what you think the mid-level encounters in Magran's Fork are, but I cleared the whole thing the first time I was there, maybe bounties? For the sake of argument, let's say that these are reasons to return to the maps, the problem is that it's irrelevant, though, because SoD has a different structure that doesn't facilitate returning back to other maps and there is no point in doing so. And that's fine. They can always send you to a random map for whatever reason, f.e. "to cure this big tree in Twin Elms, I need a special acorn from Cilant Lis", it's trivial. They actually do send you to Cilant Lis in such a way, it's to upgrade the Grey Sleeper. What I mean is that PoE very rarely has encounters that you can't beat the first time you are in a clump of locations, the bounties don't count because they are a post-factum thing.
 
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Sizzle

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Compared to this crap, PoE's lore dumps are Pulitzer material.

The difference is quantity, both are bad, but if I had to eat a spoonful of shit versus a bowl of shit, I'd choose the spoon.

I get that your main problem with PoE's writing is its blocks of text, but I was talking more about the overall quality of craft.

As in, I can remember plenty of good writing from PoE (and plenty of bad), but I can't remember a single moment in SoD that made me think "Yup, this is some good writing, yessiree."

It also has established characters changing their behavior to suit Beamdog's agendas, conversations where you're given no option at all but to behave like a butthurt feminazi (like the "wench" one with Voghlin), etc.

Not really, this is a very common misconception a lot of people seem to have and I don't really know where they get it from. Every character is the same one-dimensional caricature they are in BG1, they just talk more and their one-dimensionality starts to grate, as opposed to their overall quietness in BG1. There are 2 OOC moments with Viconia, where she is uncharacteristically altruistic, but it's not aggressive leftist propaganda. There ARE OOC moments which are very jarring, but it's not universal.

Safana.

SoD fails at its very inception, as it is a pointless, cash-grab pseudo-expansion.

Yes, it's pointless, but I really don't get the impression that it's a cash-grab. The EEs and nu-Star Wars, yes, but SoD does indeed feel like the labor of fans who tried to do the original justice. They failed, but that's not the point.

There are mods out there that have better writing and role-play than this abomination.

Besides, considering all the stuff about them not being happy with characters and storylines from the original saga - I don't really know if I'd label them as fans, really.

A self-contained entity that can be (and should be) safely ignored. I. e. - not a very good one.

PoE can also be safely ignored without you losing anything in your life, so that's not really that important. As opposed to BG, where you do lose joy and a piece of history if you don't play it.

I'd categorize BG2 as much more historically important than BG1 (which probably wouldn't be played that much at all today if not for the sequel).

I'm pretty sure PoE usually gave us more than one. SoD often does not give us even the one.

PoE is filled with the dispositions, so it railroads you to certain answers in general. Yes, most of the time it tries to give you a non-disposition answer, so that's good. The thing that I do remember, however, is that most of the time your character in SoD is a pussy in all the answers, including the "evil" ones. If I had to choose which one does it better, I'd say PoE.

Honestly, considering all the dialogue "choices" you're presented with in SoD, don't know how this was ever even in question :D

As in - you can see that it was written by a very poor writer, who actually thinks they are really very good, and so tries to cram in "humor" and that certain brand of aggressive leftist propaganda every chance they get.

Both SoD and PoE suffer from an overall problem with the writing. SoD's is nu-Bioware style fan-fiction written by people who don't have enough life experience to do justice to the things they are writing about, including their "strong womynz" thing, while PoE's is a lack of editing and creativity in general. PoE's might function as a piece of constructed writing if it's edited, but the ideas won't become more interesting or creative.

That's the thing though, isn't it - PoE's writing can be salvaged with an editing pass. For SoD, the only recourse is to write the entire thing from the ground up.

It's an "okay writers write too much, don't have an editor", versus "Women's studies major tries her hand at CRPG writing, everyone around her pats her on the back for being, like, so brave in tackling the important subject of fantasy transphobia. You go, gurl, make the whole game like that!" issue :D
 

Parabalus

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It's not like there's a reason to return to most maps in PoE, anyway.

The bear cave and the Drake Bounty in Valewood.
Returning to Aufra in Gilded Vale after visiting Ranga .
Picking up the Larder Door in Gilded Vale after dealing with the Bandits.
The two mid-level encounters in Magran's Fork.
The scroll of Wael quest and the Forest Lurker bounty in Black Meadow.
Defeating undead Raedric in Raedric's Hold.
The Vailian trading company quest in Anslog's Compass.

Almost every area before reaching Caed Nua in Act I has a reason to return to it at a later date, or a quest that involves multiple maps, and I don't think it would be hard to compose a similar list for areas that come in Act II and Act III.

These, with the exception of Raedric and Aufra, I guess, are all trivialities that could've been put in some other map further down the line.

How can you say this with a straight face when Bg1 maps are the epitome of triviality?
Not really, this is a very common misconception a lot of people seem to have and I don't really know where they get it from. Every character is the same one-dimensional caricature they are in BG1, they just talk more and their one-dimensionality starts to grate, as opposed to their overall quietness in BG1. There are 2 OOC moments with Viconia, where she is uncharacteristically altruistic, but it's not aggressive leftist propaganda. There ARE OOC moments which are very jarring, but it's not universal.

Behold, writing better than PoE's.

dnce7jw3633a.jpg

maxresdefault.jpg

Dragonspear-4-3-2016-1.jpg


The last one is funny though. It's not even about the low hanging SJW stuff, the worst part are your responses, regardless of agenda they are downright horrible.
 
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Lacrymas

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Sizzle, I knew you'd say Safana and many people mention her, but that's not true. In every. single. conversation. she is the lecherous femme fatale who uses her looks to get the attention of men, she's also a thief. Like in BG1. If you can show me where exactly she's OOC that'd be great. About SoD's overall writing I don't know what more to say. I found myself rolling my eyes to the back of my skull in PoE much more frequently than in SoD and I could get through SoD's writing, as opposed to PoE where I just don't want to read it. I don't want to read SoD's either, but if I was forced to choose which one to torture myself with I'd choose SoD's. Do they think they are "tackling the important subject of fantasy transphobia"? That'd be hilarious if they are, because they aren't tackling anything, just mentioning that Mizhena somehow didn't realize the existence of polymorph self/other and the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity isn't "tackling transphobia" lololol.

Parabalus being butthurt again.
 

Sizzle

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Sizzle, I knew you'd say Safana and many people mention her, but that's not true. In every. single. conversation. she is the lecherous femme fatale who uses her looks to get the attention of men, she's also a thief. Like in BG1. If you can show me where exactly she's OOC that'd be great.

I'm not going to be able to give you actual screenshot proof (uninstalled the game and never again intend on playing it), but just look at this here:

nyg15oin35ab.png


About SoD's overall writing I don't know what more to say. I found myself rolling my eyes to the back of my skull in PoE much more frequently than in SoD and I could get through SoD's writing, as opposed to PoE where I just don't want to read it.

I understand that you're the kind of guy who values brevity a lot, but even so - I consider SoD's writing amateurish at best, and preachy at worst.

But I get that this is simply a subjective thing - piles of okay writing are a lot less offensive to me than snippets of actual shit writing.

Do they think they are "tackling the important subject of fantasy transphobia"? That'd be hilarious if they are, because they aren't tackling anything, just mentioning that Mizhena somehow didn't realize the existence of polymorph self/other and the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity isn't "tackling transphobia" lololol.

Oh yeah, they actually do think that :D

Dragonspear_Editorial-4-4-2016-3.jpg


And the fact that there are so many ways you can change your gender in the Forgotten Realms just makes it all the worse :D
 

Parabalus

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Sizzle, I knew you'd say Safana and many people mention her, but that's not true. In every. single. conversation. she is the lecherous femme fatale who uses her looks to get the attention of men, she's also a thief. Like in BG1. If you can show me where exactly she's OOC that'd be great. About SoD's overall writing I don't know what more to say. I found myself rolling my eyes to the back of my skull in PoE much more frequently than in SoD and I could get through SoD's writing, as opposed to PoE where I just don't want to read it. I don't want to read SoD's either, but if I was forced to choose which one to torture myself with I'd choose SoD's. Do they think they are "tackling the important subject of fantasy transphobia"? That'd be hilarious if they are, because they aren't tackling anything, just mentioning that Mizhena somehow didn't realize the existence of polymorph self/other and the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity isn't "tackling transphobia" lololol.

Parabalus being butthurt again.

I enjoyed Dragonspear a lot, but praising it's writing is just being disingenuous. I wouldn't even mind the SJW-ery if the execution didn't suck so much (you can push agendas tastefully), the lines are just a cringefest of epic proportions.
 

Grotesque

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Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
Someone must be really retarded to even think that Baldur's Gate is inferior to Pillars of Eternity.

BG has vivid acumen, a "je ne sais quoi" to it, has beloved mistakes wrapped in its flamboyant and in its youthful resonance with the player's hungry spirit, a non pretentious straightforward honest game with an intro that leaves the player with a sweet horripilation and a soundtrack that has a slight sense of a sardonical self-empowerment.
A game confined only by its exhaustive artistic guidance but also free via its exquisitely narrated scenes and the domain of things left untold and abandoned to imagination.
A game with insight. A game with a soul. :)

PoE is the sum of the emanations from a "mathematician" and his failed attempt at giving birth to a gripping world.
A stillborn. A fruitless endeavor.
A collapse of faith and reverie. A chastity belt upon the face of ebullience.
A somber reality check.
:)
(and upon all that, you also reach lvl. cap way too early for any sane person to even enjoy the game at some point)
 

Lacrymas

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Sizzle, but PoE's writing is amateurish as well, with very few exceptions. It isn't some great classic that just needs tidying up, the main story doesn't even make sense, let alone the characters and their motivations in it. While they do in SoD. Also, I do know what they say they've done to Safana, but that's not true. It simply isn't, they didn't "fix" anything, even from the perspective of an SJW, in Safana's character and her quest is one throwaway line that she ..."came across" some intel that there's a spy in the camp. Nothing about strong womynz or "pussy grabs back" moments. They added a lesbian negress in BG2, i.e. "objectifying and sexualizing an exotic woman". They aren't doing a good job at their own ideology. Also, yeah, Amber is an idiot.


I enjoyed Dragonspear a lot, but praising it's writing is just being disingenuous. I wouldn't even mind the SJW-ery if the execution didn't suck so much (you can push agendas tastefully), the lines are just a cringefest of epic proportions.

I'm not praising the writing, I explicitly said multiple times that it's bad.
 
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Sizzle

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Okay, to sum up - PoE has writing that ranges from great (Durance) to mediocre/bad (info dumps), but nothing that particularly stands out as terrible.

On the other hand - SoD has some awful pieces of writing, and not a single moment that rises above ok.

I know you prefer SoD's because of its terse writing, but comparing the two, in any other criteria - leaves PoE the clear winner. Yes, it was long-winded, often times uninspired, but it wasn't written by complete idiots who injected their own leftist fantasies into an existing franchise.

And I would not agree about SoD "making sense". It's fanfic level "Oh, OH, how about a story where we reveal what the PC was doing before Irenicus kidnaped him/her? Wouldn't that be awesome!" of unwarrantedness. I would place it in the same category as the upcoming standalone Han Solo movie - the "Who gives a fuck?" category.
 

Lacrymas

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Oh, I'll be the first one to admit SoD's existence is pointless, trust me. Its story, however, as a self-contained entity, makes sense. The main characters' motivations, even though basic, make sense. This can't be said about PoE and that's where the caveat is. No amount of purple prose, editing and lack of propaganda/ideology is going to fix that and the never-ending torrential word soup and lack of poetic sense makes it worse. The combination of all these things, + the absolutely drab, wet rag companions, makes PoE's writing worse in the long run, at least for me. In the end, yes, what drives the last nail in the coffin for me is the sheer quantity of bad in PoE.
 

Sizzle

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Personally, I consider SoD's writing to be bad on a whole other level, something that's attainable only by nuBioWare and (maybe) Bethesda.

But fair enough, agree to disagree.
 

Lacrymas

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Personally, I consider SoD's writing to be bad on a whole other level, something that's attainable only by nuBioWare and (maybe) Bethesda.

I feel like you are saying that out of your own ideology, opposing "aggressive leftist propaganda", which SoD really isn't even though it was written from such a perspective, rather than from a non-ideological analysis. You are letting it twist the facts, the same thing SJWs are doing, but from a different perspective. Beamdog got the memo, however, SoD was received undeservedly horribly and I don't think they'd dare write anything like Mizhena ever again. Maybe they won't dare to write anything that isn't straight, white and "cis" no matter how interesting an idea they have for such a character because of fear of this type of backlash again, not understanding where the problem was. Maybe this will spread to other studios, too, remember Josh saying that he literally yelled at people to make the game gayer? Yeah, that probably won't happen again, no matter how funny it is to imagine.
 

Sizzle

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Not really. I mean, I do consider what they did with that entire approach a travesty, but I could have been more lenient to it if the rest of the writing in the game was good.

But it's not.

The Korlasz example I posted, for example. Nothing "leftist" about it, it's simply bad writing.

Also, I don't have that big of a problem with ideologies such as these in games, but what I do have a problem is when they are presented in such an obvious, boring and transparently aggressive way.
 

Ulfhednar

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Valewood, Larder Door and Magran's Fork are one clump of locations, like SoD, you can complete while you are there, I don't know what you think the mid-level encounters in Magran's Fork are, but I cleared the whole thing the first time I was there, maybe bounties?

There is the Sir Slydel(sp?/name?) bounty in the lower right hand corner near the Adra pillars and another mercenary group that shows up at the crossroads where you meet Durance - I don't know what the exact trigger is for their appearance, but they are usually there after you access Defiance Bay. The are led by a Death Godlike Chanter that carries a pistol and you can take him prisoner.

Beamdog got the memo, however, SoD was received undeservedly horribly and I don't think they'd dare write anything like Mizhena ever again. Maybe they won't dare to write anything that isn't straight, white and "cis" no matter how interesting an idea they have for such a character because of fear of this type of backlash again, not understanding where the problem was. Maybe this will spread to other studios, too, remember Josh saying that he literally yelled at people to make the game gayer? Yeah, that probably won't happen again, no matter how funny it is to imagine.

What's hilarious is how badly Beamdog failed at SJW themes in SoD. Mizhena is the epitome of tokenism - literally the only thing important about him/her is the 'trans' identity. The Edwin/Edwina quest explores the same themes but develops a character at the same time. Yet another way that BG2 was far ahead of its time, despite all of Amber Scott's accusations.
 

AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
One area where PoE indisputably wins vs the IE games is reactivity and multiple possible solutions/resolutions to every quest. Most of them are not really memorable though, and have no long-term consequences which would affect other quests.

And Siege of Dragonspear has more reactivity and possible solutions/resolutions to quests than PoE. Your move.
I didn't know we were in TB mode. :lol:

Also, bringing up SoD... "that's too bad"

:nocountryforshitposters:

You press a button something awesome has to happen. At every corner something awesome has to happen.

Button = awesome. You can't go wrong.
There is a middle ground between empty maps and button = awesome.

By your logic Age of Decadence is the ultimate Awesome Button game.
Probably that's what made me like it so much.
 

Lacrymas

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What's hilarious is how badly Beamdog failed at SJW themes in SoD. Mizhena is the epitome of tokenism - literally the only thing important about him/her is the 'trans' identity. The Edwin/Edwina quest explores the same themes but develops a character at the same time. Yet another way that BG2 was far ahead of its time, despite all of Amber Scott's accusations.

That's normal for SJWs because they confuse what you are for who you are. They think Mizhena has inherent value as a person and a character because she's "trans", while that can't be further from the truth, and also ignoring the fact that such a thing can't exist in the Forgotten Realms because of endless ways to change your biological sex, so being trans doesn't make sense. She might be under the influence of some such spell, though, I doubt they have SRS or HRT and literally everyone will tell her to go to a local mage to have that little problem fixed, which makes the whole thing worse. The "transphobia" they so hate is actually exacerbated by such lousy and frankly stupid attempts.
 
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Jenkem

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Make the Codex Great Again! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I helped put crap in Monomyth
PoE is the sum of the emanations from a "mathematician" and his failed attempt at giving birth to a gripping world.
A stillborn. A fruitless endeavor.
A collapse of faith and reverie. A chastity belt upon the face of ebullience.

all of this is metacommentary about the hollowborn and the state of animancy in the world of eora

:gangster:
 

Prime Junta

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and then find fitting helmets for their godlike outfit
while in bg theyll get eaten by wolves...

The IE games are easier than PoE.

I know you're trolling a little here but... eh, it's really hard to quantify though, isn't it? BG2 is really fucking hard if you can't into one-shot-kill spells and ways to defeat them, or immunities and ways of busting them. OTOH it's really easy if you know what you're doing if you play a party of kensai-mages, more so towards the end of the game.

My personal subjective impression is that the IE games on core rules are roughly at the same level as Pillars on Hard. Pillars on Normal is certainly easier.
 

Master

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“We have a pop-up window that shows things like the population, a breakdown of the different races in the city, who rules the city, and what their major trade exports are,” Sawyer explains. “It helps flesh out your sense of the city, but also its place in the world.”



Cant i buy some newspapers for that, like i could in Arcanum, and see what the various races are up to and see prices of sugar too. And for critical information like population count i should be able to go to some Great Library or Archives... Tarrant had a Hall of Records. Isnt that better than a "pop-up window"? Fuck, even Dragon Age Codex Entries were better.:dead:
 

Lacrymas

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Lots of butthurt at hearing the truth in this thread, delicious.

About the difficulty - it depends on how you look at it, if you use mods and what difficulty modes you are comparing. PotD's difficulty comes from the game assaulting you with endless hordes of enemies who have high defenses and like to spam AoE stuns. The most difficult fight I saw up to the end of TWM1 was the Gleaming Society (didn't fight the Alpine Dragon yet), that may be because I lacked a way to rapidly spam AoE CC, but that's what took me the most reloads trying to come up with a plan to kill them, and in the end it might've just been down to luck. That difficulty came from the overwhelming amount of enemy paladins and monks wailing on you, refusing to die, which was a bit cheap. The game is obviously not balanced for PotD. BG's difficulty without mods comes from learning the ropes and knowing how to counter the enemies, BG with SCS's comes purely from the AI with no cheese or cheapness. SCS is fair and uses the rules to its full advantage. The final battle with Sarevok at the end of BG1 is insane. Yeah, most of the encounters can be breezed through because they consist of bottom-feeder mobs who can't do anything in general, but the encounters which matter are great.

It's difficult to compare the two because the difficulty comes from two different things, but I'd prefer SCS's pure AI difficulty to PotD's endless parades of scaled, cheap enemies any day.

The pop-up windows are just an extension of Absurdian treating the UI like a free lore dispenser, so nothing new here.
 
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Prime Junta

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The most difficult fight I saw up to the end of TWM1 was the Gleaming Society (didn't fight the Alpine Dragon yet), that may be because I lacked a way to rapidly spam AoE CC, but that's what took me the most reloads trying to come up with a plan to kill them, and in the end it might've just been down to luck. That difficulty came from the overwhelming amount of enemy paladins and monks wailing on you, refusing to die, which was a bit cheap. The game is obviously not balanced for PotD.

/me resists temptation to say "git gud"

Seriously though, I didn't have that much trouble with any of the bounties in WM1 on PotD after... well, learning how things work. Pull of Eora rocks, but it's by no means crucial. From where I'm at, the game is obviously balanced for PotD, with a few of the optional encounters bordering on punishingly hard -- as they should be.

BTW did you fight Concelhaut yet? Now that's a good fight, IMO the best in WM1.
 

Parabalus

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Lots of butthurt at hearing the truth in this thread, delicious.

About the difficulty - it depends on how you look at it, if you use mods and what difficulty modes you are comparing. PotD's difficulty comes from the game assaulting you with endless hordes of enemies who have high defenses and like to spam AoE stuns. The most difficult fight I saw up to the end of TWM1 was the Gleaming Society (didn't fight the Alpine Dragon yet), that may be because I lacked a way to rapidly spam AoE CC, but that's what took me the most reloads trying to come up with a plan to kill them, and in the end it might've just been down to luck. That difficulty came from the overwhelming amount of enemy paladins and monks wailing on you, refusing to die, which was a bit cheap. The game is obviously not balanced for PotD. BG's difficulty without mods comes from learning the ropes and knowing how to counter the enemies, BG with SCS's comes purely from the AI with no cheese or cheapness. SCS is fair and uses the rules to its full advantage. The final battle with Sarevok at the end of BG1 is insane. Yeah, most of the encounters can be breezed through because they consist of bottom-feeder mobs who can't do anything in general, but the encounters which matter are great.

It's difficult to compare the two because the difficulty comes from two different things, but I'd prefer SCS's pure AI difficulty to PotD's endless parades of scaled, cheap enemies any day.

The pop-up windows are just an extension of Absurdian treating the UI like a free lore dispenser, so nothing new here.

Comparing PoE's difficulty to modded Bg1&2 is bull. Those mods were not part of the game and were made over a period of 10 years - they are not a fair comparison. Might as well compare it to Tactics or similar mods then.

and then find fitting helmets for their godlike outfit
while in bg theyll get eaten by wolves...

The IE games are easier than PoE.

I know you're trolling a little here but... eh, it's really hard to quantify though, isn't it? BG2 is really fucking hard if you can't into one-shot-kill spells and ways to defeat them, or immunities and ways of busting them. OTOH it's really easy if you know what you're doing if you play a party of kensai-mages, more so towards the end of the game.

My personal subjective impression is that the IE games on core rules are roughly at the same level as Pillars on Hard. Pillars on Normal is certainly easier.

You are spot on I'd say. Biggest thing is that the difficulty slider does almost nothing in (vanilla) Bg2, I'd suggest that PoTD PoE is harder than Insane Bg2.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
But yes, I also would have preferred if PoE2 continued at level 12 (or 16, if you have both expansions), but with the new system they're going for in the sequel - guess that would have been very, very difficult to do.

The problem is that it couldn't. And Josh knows this. BG1 was restrained and disciplined, it didn't throw Mindflayers (Vithrack), dragons, archmages and what have you at the player and the very conservative cap of 161k xp made it possible for BG2 to go somewhere with the same system. 16th level is already too high for its own game, let alone starting at that for a sequel.

Yeah, this was one of my main gripes with PoE. Even in the vanilla version, at level 12 you've already felt very epic. Powerful abilities flying right, left and center. The power level only got crazier with the expansions. Not a very good setup for supposedly the first game in a new series. Also hordes of enemies, fast pace and fireworks everywhere didn't help with combat flow clarity. Supposedly the last issue is being addressed though.
 

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