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Rpgs with best gameplay?

Paul_cz

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For morons to whom gameplay=combat, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Dragon's Dogma

For nonmorons to whom gameplay=combat+dialogue+CnC+movement+stealth+whatever, I dunno, Fallout 1/2/New Vegas? Gothic 1/2? Witcher series? Vampire Bloodlines? All of them are great.
 

Jack Of Owls

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Neverwinter Nights 1 with Hall-Of-Fame modules. You won't find anything better or more satisfying in the way of computer RPGs. The two official campaigns are also very good but avoid the original campaign, which is only recommended for the newest newfags only..
 

Lurker47

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For morons to whom gameplay=combat, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Dragon's Dogma

For nonmorons to whom gameplay=combat+dialogue+CnC+movement+stealth+whatever, I dunno, Fallout 1/2/New Vegas? Gothic 1/2? Witcher series? Vampire Bloodlines? All of them are great.
New Vegas had awful combat though.
 

Paul_cz

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For morons to whom gameplay=combat, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Dragon's Dogma

For nonmorons to whom gameplay=combat+dialogue+CnC+movement+stealth+whatever, I dunno, Fallout 1/2/New Vegas? Gothic 1/2? Witcher series? Vampire Bloodlines? All of them are great.
New Vegas had awful combat though.
So fucking what? It had shitload of other good stuff going for it. Games are not just about combat. Combat is a fucking busywork. And regardless, what one finds awful another can find ok and another still can find great. I didn't love combat in FO3 or NV, but I didn't hate it either. It was ok. I played the game for other reasons though.
 
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If someone created an RPG with good gameplay, we'd create a new genre so that it wouldn't be an RPG any more.
 

Lurker47

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For morons to whom gameplay=combat, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Dragon's Dogma

For nonmorons to whom gameplay=combat+dialogue+CnC+movement+stealth+whatever, I dunno, Fallout 1/2/New Vegas? Gothic 1/2? Witcher series? Vampire Bloodlines? All of them are great.
New Vegas had awful combat though.
So fucking what? It had shitload of other good stuff going for it. Games are not just about combat. Combat is a fucking busywork. And regardless, what one finds awful another can find ok and another still can find great. I didn't love combat in FO3 or NV, but I didn't hate it either. It was ok. I played the game for other reasons though.
Of course, there's other good stuff but in a thread about gameplay, I wouldn't bring up dialogue or CnC- I don't really think that falls into anyone's definition of gameplay. And if they did, then "gameplay" has become a pretty arbitrary term. Stealth and movement are a part of gameplay and indirectly, combat but those are both clunky mechanics in NV.

And if you're saying "combat is busywork" well then you're probably just playing an RPG with rather lackluster gameplay.
 

Serious_Business

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If someone created an RPG with good gameplay, we'd create a new genre so that it wouldn't be an RPG any more.

That's pretty reasonable. One can assume that the debates on the nature of rpgs is just being stimulated by the illusion that these are actually good games.

See for reference :

For morons to whom gameplay=combat, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Dragon's Dogma

For nonmorons to whom gameplay=combat+dialogue+CnC+movement+stealth+whatever, I dunno, Fallout 1/2/New Vegas? Gothic 1/2? Witcher series? Vampire Bloodlines? All of them are great.

Most that enjoy action games would agree that DS and Bloodborne have good gameplay, but the rest of the list is erratic. The elements of gameplay are so eclectic that it doesn't mean anything and all of this can be broken down to utter shit. F1/2 have problematic combat, character systems, AI ; NV has simply a terrible and clumsy engine / G1/2 have horrible late games / Witcher's systems are in no way recognized as being good / Bloodlines has a lot of problems despite being a cool exprience. None of these games are actually good games. They try interesting things, but they do not have good gameplay.
 

Ventidius

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Jul 8, 2017
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Depends on what you mean by gameplay, I think the three most important areas of gameplay in an rpg are tactical combat, exploration, and character building.

Tactical combat - further subdivided in games with good combat engine, and implementation of rulesets, and games that have good encounter design.

Engine: TOEE, Jagged Alliance 2, Goldbox games, Knights of the Chalice, Natuk, Dark Sun, Blackguards, Wasteland 2, Fallout. Basically any game that is a) turn-based b) has grid-based movement(also, hex>square) or similar enough, and proper positioning, and c) gives you a wide range of options in combat, the paradigm being JA2 where you can crouch, lay prone, aim at limbs, etc.

Encounters: Jagged Alliance 2, Baldur's Gate 2, Icewind Dale series, the higher level Goldbox games like Dark Queen of Krynn and Pools of Darkness, Wizardry series, Elminage series and Labyrinth of Touhou 2.

A lot of these games have flawed combat engines, such as the Infinity Engine games which are RTwP, and blobbers, which allow for only very limited positioning, thus eliminating or at least severely simplifying an entire layer of tactics. Some of these games nevertheless manage to have excellent combat by virtue of their encounter design and by compensating for the simplified(or in the case of IE, distorted) system of positioning by transfering tactical depth to the system of spells, status effects, buff/debuffs, skills, etc. Handcrafted encounters are good and BG2 does them well, but procedurally or semi-procedurally generated ones can still be tactically satisfying if the ruleset and the AI are good enough.

The games with the best combat are probably those that have both of these things like Jagged Alliance 2 and Pools of Darkness.

Character Building - to be subdivided in character creation and character development. Also, only systems with full party creation/development are included here as whatever the strengths of a particular character system(e.g. Fallout, NWM), it will never have its potential fulfilled until it is integrated within full party customization.

Character creation: Wizardry, Elminage series, TOEE, Goldbox games, Icewind Dale series (especially 2).

Self-explanatory, an interesting system of character creation, it doesn't have to be super-detailed in the amount of things you can actually modify like Daggerfall(though this is good), but at least it has to have a large amount of intrinsic complexity that is not obvious unless you look under the hood. Early DnD games and Wizardry are a good example of the latter.

Character development: Wizardry 1-5, Wizardry 7, TOEE, Icewind Dale 2.

Generally this can be done well in two ways, by a perk/feat system or by a system that encourages class-changing, provided the class system is robust enough to make class stacking interesting, as was the case in the old Wizardry games and Elminage. Perk/Feat systems are perhaps a more sophisticated alternative to this, since they allow the player to exercise agency throughout the development of his characters that feels qualitative and not just quantitative, while retaining the sense of specialization that class-change systems sometimes dilute. The least interesting form of chardev IMO is ability/skill scores, in other words, systems where character development consists of merely pumping up the score of a skill or attribute(e.g. Wizardry 8), this can however, complement and slightly improve a system that successfully implements feats or class-changing, such as Fallout and Wizardry 7 respectively.

Again, the best character building is often found in games that combine both of these things successfully, such as TOEE.

Exploration - further subdivided in dungeon and overworld exploration.

Dungeon exploration: Wizardry 1-5, Elminage series, Generation Xth Code Hazard.

I'd say dungeons tend to synergize better with gameplay than overworlds, perhaps due to their inherently 'gamey' nature. They tend to have traps and obstacles of all sorts that can then easily be linked with the character system(disarm trap, pick lock skills), and since it is easier to get lost on them, they often offer more opportunities for exploration tools(skills, magic,etc) to make themselves useful. In old-school dungeon crawlers you also usually cannot save or rest inside dungeons which means that resource management synergizes with labyrinth exploration and charting in order to create an strategically robust challenge on its own right and quite apart from the tactical combat and character/party optimization. Old school Wiz, 1-5 specifically, do this flawlessly, and their Japanese successors, especially Elminage have ensured the survival of this craft.

Overworld exploration: Might and Magic series, Elder Scrolls series(except Oblivion).

Well, I really like overworld exploration where I have found it, but I think overworlds in RPGs are rarely able to offer as much gameplay value that dungeons do, in terms of resource management, making it difficult to find your way, and avoiding traps. They sometimes do offer these things, but always to a lesser extent than dungeon crawlers do. It's good to have pretty looking overworlds that also serve as vessels for interesting lore and environmental storytelling, like Morrowind, but this is not enough from a gameplay perspective, but only from an atmospherefag and lorefag perspective. Actual survival in the gameworld should be challenging and strategic for it to really shine as gameplay. As has been said of dungeons, they are often an enemy in themselves, and one of the cool things about dungeon crawlers is the feeling of conquering a dungeon. Overworlds tend to underperform in these regards, and frankly it is not necessarily for lore and cohesiveness reasons only (e.g. some would argue that making a world too gamey would break immersion) as there are many fantasy and sci-fi settings in which a hostile living world a la Alpha Centauri could be implemented, and this would allow for all sorts of obstacles and mechanics to be embedded in exploration, not to mention the opportunities offered by post-apocalyptic settings where minefield-ridden areas would be lore-friendly. A step in the right direction would be to take away save-anywhere and rest-anywhere privileges from the player, and have armor and weapon degradation, low-ammo, etc to make survival an interesting mechanic in and of itself. The saturation of overworlds with fauna, flora, and landmarks also allows for creative hiding spots for loot and collection of supplies. But perhaps I am being a bit too harsh here, at the end of the day overworlds are mostly fine, especially since there are often actual dungeons to explore in the best overworlds anyway, and one of their strengths is the variety in environs that they provide, which helps against repetitiveness and tedium during exploration, and the two series mentioned above probably do this particular aspect best. Daggerfall deserves mention for having more city than overworld exploration proper, but it is still easily among the best in terms of non-dungeon exploration due to the amount of interactivity with the enviroment and customization of things that it provides.

So yeah, good gameplay can mean a lot of things. You could say that the best gameplay is that of games that have all of the above, but those are unicorns. Most games specialize in something they do very well and then they 'dump' some other area of design. The most well-rounded model of rpg I've seen is the old Wiz 1-5 model which has great exploration, good combat, and good charbuilding, most of the others are mediocre or outright sucky in at least one area, so pick your poison. To make a military analogy, character building is the strategic layer (so long as there is no respec), exploration and resource management are the operational layer, and combat the tactical layer. So go with those games that specialize in the layer you prefer. All of the games mentioned above have good rpg gameplay and are worth playing for it alone, they just specialize in different areas.
 
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Wysardry

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
This is a tough question to answer, as it's so subjective, but the games I go back to most are Daggerfall and Might & Magic VI.

The skill system in Daggerfall is the best I've seen, and the game lets you do your own thing for as long as you want.

It's hard to pin down what makes MM VI better than its sequels, but for me it is (despite me enjoying Archomage, the stronghold, dual storylines and light/dark magic of MM VII).
 

Jack Of Owls

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May 23, 2014
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Might & Magic VI would have been the perfect cRPG if it weren't for the fact that it had such overpowered gear & loot you could discover that it made the end-game a joke, at least for me it did. I killed the final boss in literally 2 seconds, and barely even got to see what she looked like before she was a crumpled death animation and gore-bag beneath my feet. Still, it's one of the most satisfying cRPGs I've ever played.
 

Jason Liang

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Oct 26, 2014
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Crait
How quickly does the Codex lose its collective memory.

My #1:
Shadowrun: Dragonfall

#2:
Sengoku Rance

#3:
Invisible Inc.

#4:
BG2: EE

These games balance combat and non-combat the best. There are great games at the extremes (Bloodlines: non-combat- awesome, combat- yech. ToEE: non-combat- yech, combat- awesome.) but these games have seamless enjoyment between the two and decent to great stories to boot.
 
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DavidBVal

4 Dimension Games
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Please change title to "What's your favorite game?" so everyone will be right.

It's been said above, depends on definition of gameplay. For me it's the combined mechanics and its flow when the user interacts with them,being able to keep your brain active and seeking ways to defeat the challenges, again and again. Pool of Radiance, Early Wizardries feel like a well oiled machine when you play, just as TOEE and AoD.

Other games which are among my favorites (Arcanum, PS:T, Darklands) often don't have that feeling; maybe large parts of gameplay feel irrelevant, too influenced by RNG or maybe some character development options feel arbitrarily good or bad. They lack this feeling of the game being a clockwork puzzle you have to learn the gears to predict and therefore survive.
 
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Ventidius

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Jul 8, 2017
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It's been said above, depends on definition of gameplay. For me it's the combined mechanics and its flow when the user interacts with them,being able to keep your brain active and seeking ways to defeat the challenges, again and again. Pool of Radiance, Early Wizardries feel like a well oiled machine when you play, just as TOEE and AoD.

Agreed. Good gameplay should give you the feeling that you are figuring out the workings of a complex Turing machine, and tinkering with it. Of course, the degree to which a game is able to provide that experience also depends on the player; some people are so good at problem solving that anything short of Gary Grigsby games or Dwarf Fortress will not really give them the feeling their faculties are being exercised. It is analogous to physical training in that sense; the more fit the athlete, the easier the exercises. Objectively though, more complex systems usually mean better gameplay, provided we are talking about genuine complexity and not mere convolutedness. That said, gameplay is not everything, and atmosphere, charm, lore, story, graphics, music, art direction, interface, etc. do play a role in our preferences. Otherwise we'd be all just be doing math exercises instead of playing videogames. It is to the extent that good presentation and solid gameplay meet that we have good entertainment. But we should always keep in mind that due to the interactive nature of videogames as a form of entertainment, the centrality of player agency to the medium will always require robust gameplay as its foundation.
 
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