Incline Co-Op boardgames

[Snorkack]

Yes, the kickstarter for 2nd printing recently finished and it is supposed to be widelyavailable again in september/october. Pricetag still around 100$ I guess.

 

[Ebonsword]

So here's my opinion on co-op board games: I love them, but I hate pure co-op games. I need for there to be some hidden information and objectives, possibility for traitors and betrayals, and therefore bluffing while we co-op, for the game to be interesting to me. I play with people to play the people, not the board. Anybody else feels the same?

I feel that pure co-op games are basically just a question of playing the board optimally. They're mechanical, just do the math type of shit. And so the game falls into some patterns: everyone plays every move by commitee to ensure optimal play, or some motivated guy is ahead of everyone on the optimal calculations, and just calls the optimal moves while others follow. In both cases, your moves aren't really yours. There's no reason to go against an optimal move, no personal objective that differs, so there's no social conflict there, no arguing for my move instead of yours, it's just an ocean of bland that reduces 3-6 minds to one. All there is to go against optimal moves are mistakes, rather than intentional player-engineered crises. Pure co-op games are basically single player games where someone thought it would be fun to split the player's actions amongst multiple people.

I disagree, but I sort of see where you're coming from.

I personally love the *concept* of pure co-op games, especially co-op dungeon crawls. Unfortunately, the execution is usually flawed.

This relates to your point about them being "basically just a question of playing the board optimally". For some reason, many game designers seem to think that, to compensate for the lack of an opposing player, they have to make their co-op games brutally hard to beat. And that definitely contributes to the issue of the "alpha player" as well as the games feeling more like a puzzle than a dungeon crawl (both Descent 2.0 and the D&D Ravenloft games are guilty of this).

I think scaling back the difficulty would better enable the players to pursue more varied paths to beating the game and would also allow the alpha players to relax a bit since they won't feel as much need to micromanage everyone else in order to achieve victory.

 

[Galdred]

So here's my opinion on co-op board games: I love them, but I hate pure co-op games. I need for there to be some hidden information and objectives, possibility for traitors and betrayals, and therefore bluffing while we co-op, for the game to be interesting to me. I play with people to play the people, not the board. Anybody else feels the same?

I feel that pure co-op games are basically just a question of playing the board optimally. They're mechanical, just do the math type of shit. And so the game falls into some patterns: everyone plays every move by commitee to ensure optimal play, or some motivated guy is ahead of everyone on the optimal calculations, and just calls the optimal moves while others follow. In both cases, your moves aren't really yours. There's no reason to go against an optimal move, no personal objective that differs, so there's no social conflict there, no arguing for my move instead of yours, it's just an ocean of bland that reduces 3-6 minds to one. All there is to go against optimal moves are mistakes, rather than intentional player-engineered crises. Pure co-op games are basically single player games where someone thought it would be fun to split the player's actions amongst multiple people.

I disagree, but I sort of see where you're coming from.

I personally love the *concept* of pure co-op games, especially co-op dungeon crawls. Unfortunately, the execution is usually flawed.

This relates to your point about them being "basically just a question of playing the board optimally". For some reason, many game designers seem to think that, to compensate for the lack of an opposing player, they have to make their co-op games brutally hard to beat. And that definitely contributes to the issue of the "alpha player" as well as the games feeling more like a puzzle than a dungeon crawl (both Descent 2.0 and the D&D Ravenloft games are guilty of this).

I think scaling back the difficulty would better enable the players to pursue more varied paths to beating the game and would also allow the alpha players to relax a bit since they won't feel as much need to micromanage everyone else in order to achieve victory.

I don't think it would help much. One player would still boss the other around, and the game would just feel too easy.
Actually, in Descent 2, I have never seen any player taking a complete lead, because most players know their character better than the other ones, and they also like doing sub optimal things, like using their power first to get the most kills.
I once even had a player who was so bored of waiting other (in Descent1) that he engaged the end boss alone while they were shopping.
But I have only played Descent 1 and 2 1 vs 4, not coop, so maybe that helped too.

 

[Ismaul]

Interesting criticism, but...

I think scaling back the difficulty

That would make all co-op games casual games. No need for optimal play, just play and win. So, why play at all? If you mean that co-op games should be all about the experience and who cares about winning, then sure there's a market for that, but it's not the same type of game at all then. There's also the option of difficulty levels, like in Pandemic, that seems to me a better solution for casuals.

 

[J1M]

If a co-op game doesn't brutally savage you the first few times you play it, it is subpar.

"Difficulty levels" are stupid because they dilute the design effort and result in a terrible experience where people feel obligated to play a guaranteed win game ("normal mode") to introduce new players.

I'm not sure how our culture reached this point, where when you are bad at things and still learning the basics you need to be told that you "won", but it sucks.

 

[J1M]

Game designers as a whole don't truly see the alpha player as a problem. Sure they pay it lip service and some have tried to mitigate it a bit, but overall they don't really believe it is an issue.

For example, current player draws a card. The card modifies what the player can/should do on their turn. Second rule: any other player the card is revealed to (including by accident) receives a penalty.

Another example, fuzzy resolution or information. Can be done via randomness or hidden information.

Lame example, but real-time games also solve issue.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

So, I ordered D&D Ravenloft as a first starter to get (back) into board games or more specifically dungeon crawlers. I heard that most people seem to play with house rules to enhance the experience, any Codexian opinions on that? From what I can gather the "exploring does not end your heroes turn" when you uncover a tile is pretty much mandatory. Anything else to keep in mind?

 

[Black_Willow]

I have to say that the co-op app for Descent 2 made the game really superb. It has brought that dungeon-crawler feeling of venturing into the unknown because the map tiles are uncovered while you're exploring the dungeon. Also, the game tends to throw LOTS of enemies at you to compensate for the missing DM. Sitting with your bros and contemplating a way to defeat a big group of monsters is great fun.

 

[Catacombs]

Gloomhaven

So I looked this up after you mentioned it and apparently its the best thing since sliced bread but man, is it really worth the price? Is the price likely to drop anytime?

I watched a playthrough, and it looks fun. Not sure if I'll find a group that'll sit down and play through an entire campaign. The price also seems a bit steep.

 

[Snorkack]

Gloomhaven

So I looked this up after you mentioned it and apparently its the best thing since sliced bread but man, is it really worth the price? Is the price likely to drop anytime?

I watched a playthrough, and it looks fun. Not sure if I'll find a group that'll sit down and play through an entire campaign. The price also seems a bit steep.

Yes, I find that to be the problem with most legacy style board games. I mostly play them with the same group I used to play p&p with.
Considering the price tag you should just wait another two or three months until 2nd print hits the market. What you're seeing on ebay et al. right now is the effect of 'demand >> supply'.

 

[Catacombs]

Gloomhaven

So I looked this up after you mentioned it and apparently its the best thing since sliced bread but man, is it really worth the price? Is the price likely to drop anytime?

I watched a playthrough, and it looks fun. Not sure if I'll find a group that'll sit down and play through an entire campaign. The price also seems a bit steep.

Yes, I find that to be the problem with most legacy style board games. I mostly play them with the same group I used to play p&p with.
Considering the price tag you should just wait another two or three months until 2nd print hits the market. What you're seeing on ebay et al. right now is the effect of 'demand >> supply'.

Agreed. No need to purchase it now. Let others buy GH, "play test" it so to speak and let them deal with any broken rules and bugs. Then, by the second or third edition, the price should be lower and the game will be improved.

This was a good playthrough I watched recently that shows a lot of mechanics:

 

[Sranchammer]

Pericles is the new darling of Co-Op

 

[bussinrounds]

Any opinions on Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective and the different versions of it ?

 

[Catacombs]

Any opinions on Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective and the different versions of it ?

I've heard very good things about Watson and Holmes.

 

[bussinrounds]

Well I came across this thread... https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1771261/old-and-new-newbie-guide-myself
..and went ahead and ordered vol 1 (Thames Murders and Other Cases) which is the new edition of the award winning 1980s version, with all the errors and such supposedly fixed. Gonna play with my gf & mom, so if we enjoy that I'll get the Jack the Ripper & the Carlton House and Queens Park editions also.

But first we have to finish Crimes & Punishments.

 

[Gregz]

Looking for a fun digital pass-and-play type game that's co-op friendly to play w/ GF. She likes Talisman, but it's competitive, we're trying to find something co-op that we can play on the computer.

I hear a digital version of Pandemic will be available on Steam in a couple months, are there any others out right now?

 

[Catacombs]

Looking for a fun digital pass-and-play type game that's co-op friendly to play w/ GF. She likes Talisman, but it's competitive, we're trying to find something co-op that we can play on the computer.
I hear a digital version of Pandemic will be available on Steam in a couple months, are there any others out right now?

I think you will like "Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes."

 

[Gragt]

Looking for a fun digital pass-and-play type game that's co-op friendly to play w/ GF. She likes Talisman, but it's competitive, we're trying to find something co-op that we can play on the computer.

I hear a digital version of Pandemic will be available on Steam in a couple months, are there any others out right now?

When you first wrote “pass-and-play”, I imagined you meant mobile, but you also mentioned PC so let’s see. I personally prefer to play board game conversion on my phone, mostly for the mobile aspect, but I can understand why you’d want to play those on PC as well. It’s worth mentioning you could try an emulator for those but I have no idea how some of these would fare. Sadly, I do not know of many co-op board games for the PC.

The Pandemic app is very good, and just as fantastic as the original game, but mobile-only for now, though given how well Asmodee has been doing lately I wouldn’t be surprised if they publish it on Steam as well.

Else, there is Elder Sign: Omens, though at this point it varies from the board game. I do find the board game better, especially with expansions like Gates of Arkham, but the app is good fun and also available on Steam, which is what you’re looking for.

Burgle Bros isn’t available for PC but is a very stylish conversion of a cool board game. The whole heist aspect is nicely done and the various roles of the characters give it some very nice replay value.

Sentinels of the Multiverse is another nice cooperative game, this time card-based and with a neat comic book superhero theme. I don’t usually care for the theme but it works so well in this case.

Mysterium has both a mobile and PC version but may not be everyone’s cup of tea. In it, one person plays the ghost and the others play psychic investigators who must discover how the ghost was murdered over a hundred years ago. The ghost cannot speak but may show pictures as clues for them investigators. It can be quite fun but I wonder how it translate on the PC with other people.

Edit: silly me! I forgot Pathfinder Adventures by Obsidian. That one also has a Steam version, the difference being that the app is free but with minimal content initially available while the PC version must be bought but comes with all base game content. The game itself is very nice and fully co-operative, with various ways for players to interact with each other, but the game has its share of bugs—Obsidian has been patching the game over the months but it still isn’t perfect.

 

[Gregz]

Looking for a fun digital pass-and-play type game that's co-op friendly to play w/ GF. She likes Talisman, but it's competitive, we're trying to find something co-op that we can play on the computer.

I hear a digital version of Pandemic will be available on Steam in a couple months, are there any others out right now?

When you first wrote “pass-and-play”, I imagined you meant mobile, but you also mentioned PC so let’s see.

Yes, my configuration is basically a huge flatscreen in front of a couch in my living room. So unfortunately the previously mentioned "Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes" won't work because we can both see the screen. I have my PC integrated with my video entertainment system essentially. We can play "Talisman" just fine by passing the mouse back and forth, or me just clicking for her. We were also playing "Guantlet" yesterday, with her on the gamepad and me on the KB/mouse. I prefer games like these a lot because splitscreen (borderlands, portal, etc.) give me motion sickness and look shitty in general. When "Pandemic" digital version becomes available on Steam in a few months, that kind of thing should be perfect. i.e. we can both 'see the board' and choose our actions when the time comes. The flatscreen becomes the table essentially. That's the idea anyhow.

"Sentinels of the Multiverse" can be played like this pretty well too, we tried it, but there is a lot of reading which is difficult because the fonts on the cards can't be sized up. "Gauntlet" is great because we both get 1080p, and can use separate controllers to play together.

I'll look up the other titles you suggested thanks.

 

[Gragt]

Depending on your setup, you may also be able to use a mobile device and broadcast to your screen. Not exactly what you looked for, but that may give you a bigger range of options.

 

[Helly]

Kingdom Death Monster is the best coop game I've ever played, bar none. A great campaign system, gorgeous miniatures and deadly showdowns that don't pull any punches. It's kinda expensive, tho.

 

[Lithium Flower]

Kingdom Death Monster is the best coop game I've ever played, bar none. A great campaign system, gorgeous miniatures and deadly showdowns that don't pull any punches. It's kinda expensive, tho.

I posted this about KDM earlier in the thread, but if you drop 10$ on Tabletop simulator you can get the entire game and expansions for free (that's like, what, 600+ dollars of value?) as a mod AND much of the setup/teardown is automatic. Here is the version I use: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=880716909&searchtext=Kingdom+Death:+Monster

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Sup hoes, I've been getting into boardgaming lately and was wondering what ya'll are thinking of Gloomhaven nowadays? I like the concept, but I find myself wondering if I shouldn't just pick up an extra controller and play Divinity 2 split screen with my girlfriend instead (as we'd be the two playing anyways).

 

[Great Deceiver]

you're his girlfriend? ew

 

[Ismaul]

Gloomhaven eh? My group switched to this, while I'm a bit too busy to play regularly. IMO it's a mixed bag, and by that I mean I find it meh to terrible while they enjoy it a lot.

First, if you can't play regularly, you lose the sense of progression that this game hinges on. It's a power leveling game, and if what you want is a fulfilling game night, rather than the chase and hope for future reward and power increase as you play multiple games, then you will be disappointed. To me, playing the game is pointless. Spend hours to kill a few monsters and earn like 10 gold. One game feels incomplete. I'd rather play a co-op game with a clear goal that ends the same night, so I have an outcome to push for, I have a stake in the game. As it is, I have more fun rolling dice for no reason.

It's basically a Skinner box game to me. If you buy into the chase, you'll love it and want to play it exclusively. If you don't there's no point in playing, it's a clunky game with next to no social element, and the tactics are pretty basic, better done elsewhere. It wants to be a sandbox so it's far from lean and mean.

Second, it has a max players of 4, and a huge amount of setup time (like 30mins minimum). So I have this problem with my group, that if I want to come, and they're 4, I'm either excluded, or they have to trash their pre-made setup and their expectations so we can play another game. I feel like a guy witholding drugs to a group of addicts, and my group is made up of level-headed people. It's not very flexible with # of players or play time. You can't just invite someone to play if Gloomhaven was planned on the menu, while with other games, since pre-setuping wasn't necessary, you could just choose among the games that fit your # of players at the relevant time.

Third, since people have to commit long term to this game, otherwise it's pointless, then you only play one boardgame. All those other games you bought and liked? Not on the menu anymore.

Now, about the mechanics of the game. I haven't found anything there worth my while. It's a clunky D&D playable without GM, but without all the RP and creativity. There's a "nice" mechanic that cards, which are your actions, have 2 options on them (a move or attack action), but many games do this already. There's this management thing that you have to clear the level fast and get the loot before you get exhausted (run out of cards), but that just feels weird to me, very gaminst in a wannabe-RP game. Loot is the only PvP, and some characters are optimal looters, so that's weird too.

Seriously, I find nothing to really like in this game's mechanics, the gameplay is bland to me. Its lore is clichéd rehashed tripe. And I hate its totalitarian takeover of what's on the menu to play.

I might be biased, and the context in which you play might greatly change your view, but to me co-op DOS2 is miles more fun than this shit.