How should a noob approach blobbers?

[hackncrazy]

Oh come on, how can you people say Strange Journey is good for noobs?

-Instadeath galore.

-Party has elemental weakness enemies can exploit for free turns (No wizardry game has such a hardcore feature)

-Weak leveling and equipment (hope you like shitty guns and knives for 30 hours)

-Trick bosses and trial-and-error combat (bring the right demons or you're screwed)

-Good luck figuring out the alignment system without a guide

Just grinding enough to the point the shop sells any items is a massive chore. I would NOT recommend this game for beginners, ever.

Wizardry Tale of the Forsaken land is solid if you want an oldschool-ish game without some of the bullshit features. Has an automap and no random stats/HP on level up, so your characters can't get gimped, and the difficulty is fairly forgiving. Slow animations drag it down though. The recent Starcrawlers is also a fun blobber-lite and friendly to beginners.

I've also recommended the nes Story of Llylgamyn port of Wizardry 1-3. It's still the classic wizardry experience but with better graphics and music. Save states also take the edge off the difficulty.

SMT: Strange Journey is very noob friendly. Any older blobbers like the early Wizardry games are impenetrable in comparison. I'm not sure what you mean by screwing up your build in SMT: SJ since you can't really screw up your own character since skill points allotment is not vital in the grand scheme of things, and the rest of your party is made of up demons who you can catch, release, mix at any time. It's very, very difficult, or maybe impossible, to get into a situation where you can't complete the game, which is not the case for many older blobbers. You should probably just go back to it and spend some more time looking at the demon alignment, demon fusion system since I can't think of a better game for someone new to blobbers.

I'd also recommend trying some of the Japanese Wizardry games, the remakes and the original stories. Wizardry: Forsaken Lands for the PS2 is very good. They're similar to the American ones but with better UIs, less esoteric puzzles and mechanics, etc. Far easier to get into.

Grampy touch on a lot of points that were key for taking me away from SJ.

Mainly these three:

-Weak leveling and equipment (hope you like shitty guns and knives for 30 hours)

-Trick bosses and trial-and-error combat (bring the right demons or you're screwed)

-Good luck figuring out the alignment system without a guide

Now, I won't pretend here that I'm good at blobbers, because I'm definitely am not. On Elminage, I gave up because I felt that my party wasn't evolving the way it was supposed to, along with the fact that I had no idea about how multiclassing worked. I started getting frustrated (which is not a bad thing always, when it happens because you just suck, but in this case I felt it was because I should have a knowledge from the Wizardry series or D&D that I don't have).

Anyway, back to SJ, along with the points that Grampy made, the whole demon negotiation thing waas the main thing that made me gave up on the game. It just felt....random. More than once, I found the demon X, and when tried to negotiate with him, the answers A, B and C caused a bad reaction and he would get angry and attack me. 2 minutes later, I found the same demon and went with the same answers and magically he was happy and joined my team.

This in conjunctiuon with the trial-and error combat and the alignment/demon fusion system made me go crazy because and some point, I felt that I was advancing just by sheer luck and/or by spamming magics and the next enemy until I found out his weak point.

Then again, as I said before, the philosophy behind these games are very interesting to me, I really like the navigating system and such (and as I said, finished both Grimrock games and loved them, even with the "dancing battles").

 

[octavius]

Another good choice could be the first Lands of Lore, a game which is ok for beginners but still great.

NO

Lands of Lore is SHIT.

That's a bit of an overstatement. It has really good music, graphics and charming atmosphere (it does that whimsical thing Divinity: Original Sin did not quite succeed at - properly).
Admittedly it is horribly simplistic, lacks any sort of character building, lacks any usable sort of inventory item information and uses the hideous abomination that is the RT blobber combat.

The only really good RT blobbers are Dungeon Master and Chaos Strikes Back, IMO
Of the rest Black Crypt is the best one and Lands of Lore the second best ones.

Hey, Sigourn when are you gonna do a RT Blobber poll?

 

[Dorateen]

A healthy background in pen and paper, table-top roleplaying games does wonders for the appreciation of party based first person dungeon crawlers.

 

[hogcranker]

I know you bounced off of Strange Journey, but it is a pretty good one to start with. Just use a guide if you can't figure out anything yourself. It's unlike the Wizardry-leaning games in that you can't really fuck up your build or party. You just get more demons.

It's up to you whether you want to trial and error the systems or not. At least with that game you aren't going to restart 40 hours in after building a shit party.

Otherwise Might & Magic is perfect. Easier than Wizardry by far. Maybe a bit too forgiving in combat if you ultimately want to take on Wizardry clones, though. Even Book One has a pretty straightforward UI compared to most older blobbers.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Then again, as I said before, the philosophy behind these games are very interesting to me, I really like the navigating system and such (and as I said, finished both Grimrock games and loved them, even with the "dancing battles").

The sad thing is I'm an SMT fan and I hated Strange Journey

 

[octavius]

Otherwise Might & Magic is perfect. Easier than Wizardry by far.

That's only partly true.
MM1 and 2 is harder than Wiz 1-2 IMO, especially the beginning.

 

[DraQ]

I know you bounced off of Strange Journey, but it is a pretty good one to start with. Just use a guide if you can't figure out anything yourself. It's unlike the Wizardry-leaning games in that you can't really fuck up your build or party. You just get more demons.

It's up to you whether you want to trial and error the systems or not. At least with that game you aren't going to restart 40 hours in after building a shit party.

Otherwise Might & Magic is perfect. Easier than Wizardry by far. Maybe a bit too forgiving in combat if you ultimately want to take on Wizardry clones, though. Even Book One has a pretty straightforward UI compared to most older blobbers.

Wizardry 8 makes it really hard to fuck up your build even if you aim for it specifically.
Most of the time you just end with flavourful party full of weird but viable (due to various factors) and interesting builds.

 

[Sigourn]

Another good choice could be the first Lands of Lore, a game which is ok for beginners but still great.

NO

Lands of Lore is SHIT.

That's a bit of an overstatement. It has really good music, graphics and charming atmosphere (it does that whimsical thing Divinity: Original Sin did not quite succeed at - properly).
Admittedly it is horribly simplistic, lacks any sort of character building, lacks any usable sort of inventory item information and uses the hideous abomination that is the RT blobber combat.

The only really good RT blobbers are Dungeon Master and Chaos Strikes Back, IMO
Of the rest Black Crypt is the best one and Lands of Lore the second best ones.

Hey, Sigourn when are you gonna do a RT Blobber poll?

I don't think it's necessary. Aren't the really good blobbers already in my dungeon crawlers thread? If so, it's only a matter of removing the games that aren't real time blobbers.

 

[hogcranker]

That's only partly true.
MM1 and 2 is harder than Wiz 1-2 IMO, especially the beginning.

I had a much harder time with Wiz 1. Maybe my rough time with that led me to roll a better party for M&M1. It was like night and day for me.

I don't know this end of the subgenre inside-out, I'm just sharing experiences from kind of dabbling in Wizardry-esque blobbers over the years. I think stuff like World of Xeen is more accessible than anything I've mentioned here but that seems almost too far removed from Wizardry.

 

[octavius]

Ultima Underworld and System Shock are some of my favourite games, but I wouldn't call them blobbers. Blobbers are tile based.

 

[pippin]

Anvil of Dawn

This time I'll be getting angry. Anvil of Dawn looks cool but it's just not that great imo.

 

[octavius]

Anvil of Dawn

This time I'll be getting angry. Anvil of Dawn looks cool but it's just not that great imo.

Well, it was enjoyable enough for me to finish it, or rather I would have if it didn't bug out very near the end.
But with only one character it's not a real blobber.

 

[mogwaimon]

As a newb to blobbers I tried Wiz 1 on the SNES last night and spent more time trying to figure out basic things like trading equipment between characters and assembling a party than I did in the dungeon. Tough game but I think I'll revisit another time when I get more old-school experience.

I decided to try Stranger of Sword City instead because I heard it's more casual, it seems to agree with me so far and it's a streamlined Wiz clone so not a bad start I guess.

What I've been wondering as a newbie is what the core difference is between Wizardry and M&M. Is M&M more about the exploration and the questing than Wizardry is with its focus on character building, combat, and itemization or something? Because from what I've seen you've got people who prefer Wiz 1-5 and what they deem Wizclones, people who prefer Wiz 6-8 because they diverge greatly from 1-5 somehow, and then people who prefer M&M of course.

 

[pippin]

I personally find 6-7-8 more appealing than the previous ones because they ditched alingment, a fucking retarded mechanic no matter what you have to say about it. I like Elminage Gothic though.

 

[Old Hans]

get nintendo DS emulator and download Dark Spire.

 

[octavius]

As a newb to blobbers I tried Wiz 1 on the SNES last night and spent more time trying to figure out basic things like trading equipment between characters and assembling a party than I did in the dungeon. Tough game but I think I'll revisit another time when I get more old-school experience.

Heh, if you think Wiz 1 is complex, just wait till you try Wiz 6 and 7. Those are the games accountants dream of, juggling all those numbers.

What I've been wondering as a newbie is what the core difference is between Wizardry and M&M. Is M&M more about the exploration and the questing than Wizardry is with its focus on character building, combat, and itemization or something? Because from what I've seen you've got people who prefer Wiz 1-5 and what they deem Wizclones, people who prefer Wiz 6-8 because they diverge greatly from 1-5 somehow, and then people who prefer M&M of course.

I like all the M&M and Wizardry games, but I think MM3-5 are the weakest of the lot due to simplistic combat.
M&M is better at exploration and itemization. MM 6 also lets you fly and nuke armies of enemies, which never gets old.
Wizardry is batter at character building and mapping challenges. And Wizardry 4 is a unique game.

 

[Wysardry]

You could play Shining in the Darkness for the Sega Genesis.

Shining Force and Shining Force II are probably slightly easier to get started with. All three are available on Steam with an emulator for Windows.

 

[MRY]

You could play Shining in the Darkness for the Sega Genesis.

Shining Force and Shining Force II is are probably slightly easier to get started with. All three are available on Steam with an emulator for Windows.

But they are not blobbers.

 

[mogwaimon]

As a newb to blobbers I tried Wiz 1 on the SNES last night and spent more time trying to figure out basic things like trading equipment between characters and assembling a party than I did in the dungeon. Tough game but I think I'll revisit another time when I get more old-school experience.

Heh, if you think Wiz 1 is complex, just wait till you try Wiz 6 and 7. Those are the games accountants dream of, juggling all those numbers.

What I've been wondering as a newbie is what the core difference is between Wizardry and M&M. Is M&M more about the exploration and the questing than Wizardry is with its focus on character building, combat, and itemization or something? Because from what I've seen you've got people who prefer Wiz 1-5 and what they deem Wizclones, people who prefer Wiz 6-8 because they diverge greatly from 1-5 somehow, and then people who prefer M&M of course.

I like all the M&M and Wizardry games, but I think MM3-5 are the weakest of the lot due to simplistic combat.
M&M is better at exploration and itemization. MM 6 also lets you fly and nuke armies of enemies, which never gets old.
Wizardry is batter at character building and mapping challenges. And Wizardry 4 is a unique game.

Cool, thanks. I was just curious because it seems Wizardry gets the most love around here out of the classic CRPG trio series (Wizardry, M&M, Ultima) and I didn't quite understand why. I was actually thinking of starting with Wiz 6 and going through the Dark Savant trilogy but it didn't seem right to jump into 6 without hitting 1; I know 6 and 1 take place in different worlds or are parts of different stories at least but I'm a little OCD with playing things in order.

You could play Shining in the Darkness for the Sega Genesis.

Shining Force and Shining Force II are probably slightly easier to get started with. All three are available on Steam with an emulator for Windows.

That's SRPG though. Pretty good SRPGs but still.

 

[Valky]

Carefully.

 

[Iznaliu]

Wizardry 8 makes it really hard to fuck up your build even if you aim for it specifically.

What about a magicless party? You've going to have a fun time avoiding Insanity, Turncoat, etc.

 

[agentorange]

Wizardry 8 makes it really hard to fuck up your build even if you aim for it specifically.

What about a magicless party? You've going to have a fun time avoiding Insanity, Turncoat, etc.

who the fuck would make a magicless party unless it's part some of specific, self-limiting playthrough

 

[groke]

Anvil of Dawn

This time I'll be getting angry. Anvil of Dawn looks cool but it's just not that great imo.

It's good for what it is. I liked playing as a goblin race-traitor.

 

[RuySan]

Ultima Underworld and System Shock are some of my favourite games, but I wouldn't call them blobbers. Blobbers are tile based.

I would say they are not blobbers because they aren't party based, not because they aren't tile based. MM 6-8 and Wiz8 are definitely blobbers.

As for the topic in question, play MM3 first, if it's too old for you play MMX. If you don't mind shit graphics play MM7, since it's more approachable than 6. Wizardry 8 is great and lots of codexers have erections for it, but it kind of lacks in level design, most specifically there aren't that much dungeons, and that's a big downside for me.

Only after playing these classic series you should think of going Japanese. Elminage Gothic, etrian odyssey and the like are good time wasters, but they aren't nowhere in the same league.

 

[DraQ]

Wizardry 8 makes it really hard to fuck up your build even if you aim for it specifically.

What about a magicless party? You've going to have a fun time avoiding Insanity, Turncoat, etc.

who the fuck would make a magicless party unless it's part some of specific, self-limiting playthrough

This. 100% warrior party generally looks like an earnest attempt to fuck your build up.
Even then:

• Insane mentally impaired, iron-clad mountain of muscle with a huge sword is less devastating among fellow mentally impaired, iron-clad mountains of muscle than among frail dudes and dudettes in bathrobes.
• You can always supplement your party with RPCs and you can switch classes, if not of your party members then RPCs, to scratch your itches.

...so it shouldn't be that crippling.