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Hi Para!
WASD is busy for skills and spells. So I use the arrows and the middle mouse button to scroll the map.
End of turn. The fact is that even if the unit does nothing, it does not mean that the player forgot about it. Often units just rest and questions "are you sure?" will only annoy. "Or put the "next Unit" buttons "N, B" on different keys?" - do not understand. They are already on different keys ...
Thanks for the prompt answers by Vlad and discussion by all.
Will address some issues and comments recently brought up:
On new GUI:
The new GUI represents a small clarity improvement IMHO. I'm perfectly fine with old version though. Not a big issue for me.
On Set-Shamar:
Thanks for the clarification on Set-Shamar. Agreed on current implementation.
Number of enemies killed is a good addition. Kill counter for each type would be better but it's better than nothing. Thanks for a quick fix.
On making the game harder or easier:
Warning: wall-of-text rant follows, please wear crit-resistant attire before proceeding
Over the years, after repeated interactions/discussions with many players, I've come to recognize that the range of skill, willingness to spend time and the so-called 'element of fun' that draws players in varies greatly between individuals.
Some players come back tired from work, do not have much time to spend on a game and just want something fairly relaxing to plow through. They're not particularly inclined in trying to crack their heads over too tough a puzzle. Crushing things with minimal effort gives its own satisfaction too I suppose, and when I'm exhausted you can even count myself in this camp.
Others certainly do want a strong challenge, to feel good after overcoming a brutal mission and to have a small sense of achievement, which IMHO is also a typical mindset amongst veteran turn based fans and I certainly do subscribe to this view. I've even seen some play turn based games primarily to enjoy a good story arc, look at nice art and listen to great music.
So yea everyone looks for something a little different in their games and I think it might be a good idea to do a rough market survey at times to see if you're reaching the correct audience.
Therefore it has always been my contention that it is good to make the difficulty range sufficiently wide to accomodate more players. Using another game I've beta tested as an example, Sunrider's difficulty scheme varies from Waifu mode (400% damage to enemies, 25% incoming damage) to Space Whale (66% damage to enemies, 145% incoming damage), featuring damage ratios as wide as 16 to 0.45 or a 35.5 fold difference between extremes. I've known players who have completed it on Space Whale and I've also seen players fail Waifu on youtube. Rare in both cases but they exist.
Pillars of Eternity devs have mentioned that the most frequent complaints they get are that "the game is too hard" and "the game is too easy", so it is not an issue confined to this game. Lots of strategy/turn based/real time with pause games out there have the same issue as well. So yea, I would say do not be afraid to make difficulty settings more extreme, really easy for those wanting a quick walkthrough or to enjoy the story and really hard for those who want to experience a very real risk of failing.
Slightly lowering mob counts on Normal and introducing upkeep/higher consumable costs (numbers suggested by Trash Player look good) for Nightmare might be good in that respect.
My take on the smith: he is too versatile and too similar to the Mage. I have the follow proposals, beside zhuge's suggestion to delay recruitment:
1. 3 Potion slots -cutting to 2 or even 1 is ok.
3. Heroic Cry -seriously, this guy invalidates Morale upgrades. Remove.
4. Rework Spell lists -changes Lightning to Mana drain to both prevent early spamming from trivializing some maps and differentiate him from human counterpart. Impact has 5 range. Maybe Mage gets Lightning in place of impact?
5. Stunned/RoR nerf -Stunned to -3 Acc/Eva and RoR deals 5 damage and 4 range. Spells do not inflict status effect if damage negated by MR, so RoR would be resisted by Units with 2 MR upgrade, a very likely scenario from mid-game onward. With 4 AP and 4 range, a human with a Stun Bomb isn't outclassed. Mage has more reasons to use Fireball.
Cutting down to 1 potion slot - I vote Yes on this. If players on Normal don't like it, just reserve it for Nightmare.
Morale has always been a pretty low priority for me in terms of picks. I think Heroic Cry is fine but perhaps the Smith doesn't need it.
I quite like the idea of reworking spell lists as well to differentiate between the spells. Tweaking RoR a little is also a yes from me. Same damage as Fireball and inflicts a powerful debuff is a bit too good
Agree wholeheartedly on Targun but I understand why: he can be suppressed if he moves too fast. Regular Berserks are sneaky to their detriment too.
Melee troops will flank if they have bad trades only and an alternative route is open but sometimes the "alternative" is being pin-cushioned.
I guess it depends on what the AI considers a "bad trade". If the AI had like 10% chance to hit, I would certainly say yes maybe flank for a better position. IIRC, Targun's chances of hitting the Swordsman was about 40%. As Targun has 2 strikes per turn, those odds are not too bad and in my mind that beats circling around for no gain.
1 successful strike wouldn't have killed the Swordsman in question but 2 hits would have brought the unit very low. Low enough that a stray ranged strike could have easily killed him.
Of course! Neither do I. In fact I really would like to see his work reach a larger audience. I know there were quite a few who wanted a proper campaign for Battle Brothers instead of a sandbox. Others wanted more high fantasy characters like a fireballing mage. Warbanners satisfies all those. So advertising on the Battle Brothers Steam forum is probably a good start.
An early favorable review by a popular online turn based game site would help as well.
Other potential contacts:
1)Would also suggest recruiting Dialetheia on Steam as a beta tester. https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197993604790
He is both a Russian and a fine turn based player who has done fairly extensive analysis on Battle Brothers and I strongly believe he would help your cause. Say Lampros sent you... everyone knows Lampros
2)Also just had word from Vaendryl (programmer for the turn based game - Sunrider: Mask of Arcadius (rated 93% on Steam)) and he would like to help beta test too. Get in touch with him here: http://steamcommunity.com/id/vaendryl/
Fervently agreed! As mentioned above the difference between difficulties should be significant and I prefer the game to cater to as many players as possible. Have 6 difficulties like Sunrider if you must.
Well spotted but I very much prefer to communicate in English.
FYI I am the same zhuge in the list of beta testing credits for Heroes of Might and Magic V. Mine is the last name (based on alphabetical order). So let's just say I've been playing turn based games for quite a while and would just simply prefer to be known as a turn based fan, without racial bents. And no it is not my real surname.
I do think a Snowball roadblock is good, like high level units start asking for ridiculous upkeep. Potions can use 2x price easily, Morale and Rage should be 3x up. Unit based upkeep is a downward spiral inducing mechanism, a no-no for normal players. In a fixed campaign game, that means dev need to put more breathing room missions in, which is a no-no for players like us. Higher recruitment costs mean less party diversity early on and little later, I would rather the mission much harder.
Knight is a big debate. He can use a CD reduction in Charge though. Note this: this also make enemies with this Ability more dangerous, which is good since they are often just as dangerous as their charge.
I am not sure why Delia has 4 AP, giving her 5 would be a start. Invigorate is a great spell, just way too short-ranged. Curse being an AoE a huge deal for her, not that Toad is really that good but that as a lv5 special is just quite disappointing.
Agree that Invigorate is indeed a nice spell. Even if the Dancer's Throwing Knife is corrected to 4 Stamina, she will still frequently expend 8 Stamina per turn (via 2 Quick Attacks), a good deal more Stamina than she recovers a turn and having Delia around to help restore this provides a nice option to simply waiting around for Stamina. However this doesn't happen early in battles and in the meantime it would be good to see Delia being a little more productive during that period.
Smiths are talked above. Trivia: in the spiritual predecessor Drums of War, they are called Runesmith, made sense now eh? Not sure why Vlad changed it.
They would be even less likely to be picked if Brondrin is delayed though. May be smith has his own timing?
Lol you took the words right out of my mouth. I was going to recommend perhaps renaming it to Runesmith too. I see no reason not to revert to the original concept of it, and yes it would be a good deal more acceptable for me as well when it comes to describing a melee warrior with potent magic.
Smith having his own timing is fine by me. I would probably make him available at about the same time as for Mages, provided you have Brondrin of course.
Feedback on rest of missions in the closed beta follow:
Mission 12 (Let the wounded lie):
This battle made me chuckle as despite being pretty significantly outnumbered, it really is as easy as "shooting fish in a barrel" or should I say "shooting orcs in a river". Any tactician worth his/her salt will tell you that trying to ford across a river in full view, swimming 1 hex per turn, with enemy archers and spellcasters at the ready on the other bank is a suicidal proposition (well no one said orcs were bright) and so it is the case here. It is also sadistically satisfying though in a guilty pleasure kinda of way so I'm not knocking it
It's good design to occasionally have breathers/easier missions after a tough, epic battle and have a mission where "everyone gets a trophy Orc Hunter passive"... you get a passive and you get a passive and you get a passive and...
Mission 13 (Scapegoats):
I added Lynton to the party before this mission to help Delia and the new mage level. Delia in particular levels very slowly. Maybe I'm using her wrong but she hasn't really shown being able to pull her weight (at this stage, she's more or less just an inferior backup healer) and if she were not a hero, she would be at the top of my list of units to get replaced.
This is an interesting and well designed mission in that the ultimate goal is to escape, rather than to kill everything on the battlefield. Also the first mission with rain, interfering with ranged combat and putting out the fire at the gate, and one that includes some strategically placed barrels that you can push to occlude chokepoints. I chose the version with 7 Swordsmen and 2 Archers and did not have any trouble, sending one group to jam the catapult and the other to secure and open the gate. AI behavior here may need some tweaking as I found an enemy Swordsman whacking the gate instead of targetting my units. I sent Delia up to operate the winch as everyone else was tied up fighting (her chances of hitting shielded troops are basically non existent, her range is too small to hit enemy archers and nobody really needed heals early on - well at least she's good for something ).
I believe this mission should be capped in terms of XP, because of continuous enemy spawns. I backed away across the bridge to the exit right after the mage wave spawned but killed most mobs before those (including the 2 Knights) with the exception of a few archers. Even so, I believe this mission should also be capped in terms of the "kill counter" for humans as it is possible to farm for "Human Hunter" passive otherwise.
Mission 14 (Pursuit):
This mission is also extremely easy just like mission 12, and basically involves defending 2 well-secured chokepoints (3 vs 1 matchups) on an elevated platform, while your ranged combatants make target practice out of enemy units. A packed initial enemy deployment is an open invitation for the mage to wreak havoc and as healing is almost completely unneeded here, both healers serve as weak ranged damage dealers. Once enemy archers are down, the rest are all free kills.
Mission 15 (Red Tower):
Here I paid the 180G and took the map. Spiders are interesting adversaries, with poison, immobilize, slow, 2 attacks a turn if stationary, a unique web mechanic that builds obstacles, and can do some damage if they manage to lock on to unarmored, vulnerable units. But generally speaking, their damage is low and armored units like Roderick and Knights tank them very well. The spiders also do not appear to focus fire any unit, just poisoning whatever is conveniently near and with a Mass Heal potentially recovering 35 hps in all, everyone is usually well topped off and in no danger.
While the lead up to this mission was fine, there was no mention made after the battle that the search for the treasure was successful or unsuccessful and it seems abrupt to end things this way. I suppose I should assume the treasure was "160G and the Night Sun artifact" as spiders shouldn't drop items.
The last 4 missions have been all either easy or very easy. It's ok to have a breather mission or two. But 4 easy ones in a row? (mission 12 and mission 14 were especially easy, and if one had opted to bribe the gate guard and tip a child to distract the guards, mission 13 would also have been very easy). Really hoping for something a little harder on the next mission.
Updated details on the playthrough (battles 1-15) for balancing purposes: xp for each unit, gold received, upgrades I took, purchases I made, etc http://imgur.com/a/GB6OG
Thoughts on units (continued):
On the Knight:
After actually playing with one for a while, I now do believe that with good play, the Loner malus can generally be avoided. Had no trouble avoiding it when dealing with the spiders in mission 15, but that was of course a mission fought on wide open ground. As mentioned above my main gripes with it were that it didn't sound realistic enough and that the AI didn't use allied NPC Knights well.
I'm still leaning towards a rebalancing it a little but I suppose if you've balanced the later half of the campaign taking the malus into account, it might be safer to leave it as it is.
Mage
A powerhouse in terms of burst damage, the mage dominates early combat, softening priority targets for the frontline to deal with more effectively. If you're willing to quaff mana potions, you can extend that burst considerably too. Definitely appropriate to gate it so that it is available after only the Dark Clouds mission. Making Lynton accessible to help them catch up in level was a good design decision as well.
One worry of mine here is that the AoE damage via spells does not scale with level (only the regular single target magical damage does, with Str increments) but enemy levels and hps get progressively higher, and so what was initially strong burst damage may be a little less potent towards the end of the game. It may prove an unfounded worry but I think it's worth a mention.
Bugs:
1)Illumination (priestess passive aura)
Visually, Illumination works as advertised on mouseover, lighting up all tiles 2 hexes from the priestess. However, stats-wise, it really only applies the Illumination bonus (+2 Acc/+2 Ev) to units directly adjacent to the priestess. I'm a bit torn here. Logically I would think that to provide consistency, the priestess should Illuminate all tiles up to 2 hexes away, just like a fire does as a light source. However I'm generally not in favor of making things easier, so I'm also fine with leaving the Illumination effect as 1 hex away only (perhaps it's a weak source of light), in which case you should amend the description and the visual light radius. Your call.
Typos/grammar:
1)His white knuckles gipped a pitchfork. Should be "gripped", not "gipped"
2)The fortress no known as the Red Tower was built four hundred years ago as an output to defend the kingdom from the orcs. Should be "now known", not "no known". Should be "an outpost", not "an output"
Hexes 2 tiles from a light source are Shady, conferring no bonuses nor penalties to anyone. It is hard to see the contrast though. Maybe tweak a little bit?
On a gameplay note, that means Universal vision beats the others by being +1 no matter what.
Morale buff is very good. High Morale is like a Bless for the whole battle that stacks with Bless. It is why removing Heroic Cry from smith is a neccessary nerf.
Beta 3 Imcomplete Impressions/Spoilers
Good news:
Road to Eternity is a difficult map in general and a potential campaign ender for some party builds. Knight gets his chance to shine, literally.
Vampire is a ridiculous unit by its statline alone but by then players receive enough tools to deal with it, which is good design imo. Lich, and 2 of them!
I am somewhat surprised by their spell list, no darkness? Soul Harvest, has been in DoW, and still is the trickiest part of dealing with them.
Not so good news:
Smiths and Mages recruited from previous patches are not changed into their current incarnations.
I am running through beta 3 with a lot of old smiths. Take my opinions with more salt than usual.
Missions 17-20 are on the easier side. You shall not pass is debatable though. I can see human parties taking quite a bit of attrition.
Hexes 2 tiles from a light source are Shady, conferring no bonuses nor penalties to anyone. It is hard to see the contrast though. Maybe tweak a little bit?
Keeping the Ctrl key pressed, you can now see the chances of hit (and damage being dealt) and the unit's characteristic at any point on the map: http://gifok.net/image/83Hg
Hello guys
I will post some of my impressions here alongside with some of suggestions.
I must admit that I did not play much thanks to my current job consuming most of my time. Sadly I do not have enough free time to waste it.
First impressions.
>graphics(on battlefield) look somewhat blurry for me and colors are kind of blend together, I think it could look better if it was more sharper but its just my personal taste and I get used to it soon enough
>stamina, flanking and morale mechanics are nice
>early I have problem with game becoming slugfest with me and enemy missing all the time but it get better when I read tutorial
>I like how expendable potions are, usually I hoard but here they are affordable, I like it, it add tactical options
>number of type units are kind of limited
Bugs
>nothing really outside one time when some text get cut by a picture but that is all
Some suggestions:
>custom difficulty
Choose your own difficulty with options less/more enemies, less/more gold, resurrection on/off, switchable difficulty on/off, more/less starting funds, bonus damage to enemy/player.
Some people like fight numerous enemy(but they like also have funds) other would like fight less challenging battles but like see consequences(no resurrection) and less pay. More customization is always usually good.
>unit classes and equipment
I notice that there is little of types of units. 3 generic human+dancer, 2 elites, 2 mages, 3 dwarf and 1 elf. Not much.
I wonder if it would be possible for them to have equipment sets.
What I mean by that(it would be not upgrade but rather side-grade).
So Swordsman is generic shield and board unit but could be rearmed into 2h swordsman with more damage but no shield or pikeman with pike(2range) and no shield.
Archer could be rearmed into crosbowman.
Kind of like in old Fantasy General when you have unit of specific class(like Heavy Infantry) and then you could rearm it into swordsman, pikeman or greatsworsman.
Item sets could be possible to buy into shop or be rare and acquired only in missions as loot or as rewards from choices. Not all units would have them of course(but I see no reason why you could not use dismounted knight version for some battles(like sieges).
Anyway game looks rather solid and challenging.
Good luck with it.
Forget one thing.
Alt +F4 not working which for some reason baffles me.
About the colors of opinions are very different... I chose something more neutral.
Custom difficulty - an interesting thought. I think it's more suitable for a sandbox. I think I will not change it yet.
On the number of types of units. Yes, they are not very many. But they are fundamentally different. It is my choice. Budget constraint is not the main reason . I think the available number of units is enough to build a very diverse army. Again, this is not a sandbox. The game is not designed for hundreds of hours of gameplay.
Had a really hectic week last week and haven't really had much free time to finish the current beta (will try to in the coming days) but I have a few more issues/missions to report.
First on the Illumination issue:
Yea my statements on Illumination above were not quite right. It's true that there isn't actually a bug as Vlad has stated and also true that at 2 hexes away, Dark is converted to Shady as Trash Player stated, but the description still needs to be amended.
Right now the way it is implemented is:
Light sources override illumination conditions for units 1 hex away, thereby changing all hexes adjacent to Bright.
Light sources increase illumination for units 2 hexes away: Hexes which were previously Dark are now Shady and hexes which were previously Shady are now Bright.
Light sources stack when they overlap, therefore a Dark hex illuminated by 2 sources, which are both 2 hexes away will now be Bright.
It is a well-thought out and nuanced way to simulate light/dark conditions and I think it should be maintained.
The current description however: "Illumination overrides all hexes within 2 hexes away to Bright" is inaccurate and should be amended to avoid confusion. If the above amended description is too long to fit into a tooltip, then I'd suggest putting it in the manual instead.
Reller - recruiting cost increased to 350G
Thanks! That brings this assistant more in line with the others. 350G is probably ok as my initial observations might have exaggerated the issue a little (the catapult does miss occasionally).
Spell change:
With Rain of Rocks at 12MP instead of 11MP, it is now no longer possible for novice mages and smiths to spam them twice quickly. A good change that provides a sensible tradeoff between inflicting a strong debuff and the raw damage!
New Mage
Slightly less Stamina (of little importance). Impact taken away, Lightning added. As Mages are frequently known as elemental specialists, this change makes good sense in terms of flavor. Balance wise, this should not be problematic. A good tweak.
New Blacksmith
2 less MP to start with and the increase in MP cost for RoR makes sure that the Smith isn't going to be spamming AoE spells like the Mage. An excellent change! Taking away Lightning (the smith still has a single target spell in Impact) and adding Mana Burn is a nice touch as well as in some lore, dwarves have natural abilities to neuter/counter magic (in this game they start with more base magic resistance than humans). Design wise it adds variety, helps differentiate the Mage from the Smith and serves an anti-spellcaster niche, which could potentially be pretty useful. Strongly approved and I no longer think the current Smith to be overpowered.
In short, I agree and am well pleased with ALL fixes/tweaks. It's good to have a changelog to keep track of fixes down the road.
Spoilers on missions 16-22 and details of my playthrough continue below:
Mission 16 (The Search for Eternity):
A tough battle and a welcome sight after the previous 4 easy ones. L14 Liches with mana potions in a a nighttime battle are a nightmare to deal with as they deal considerable damage each turn, if left unattended. They have high hps, are well defended by Skeleton grunts and powerful Vampire strikers (2 melee hits per turn if stationary) and take little damage from ranged strikes (having the same physical ranged resistance as per Skeletons and high Magic Resistance). Any attempt to venture forth to melee them is a risky maneuver that could be severely punished when your forces are split and especially so if your source of illumination is cut off. You have 3 potential sources of illumination here: the campfire, the priestess and the bearer of the Night Sun artifact and units should cluster tightly around these as fighting high level undead with multiple strikes in the darkness is simply asking for pain. The enemy can also potentially throw a monkey wrench into your plans by extinguishing the campfire via a Winter Breath potion and many units here carry multiple consumables (up to 3), which they use fairly liberally. The mage could prove an even more valuable asset than usual here, by spawning additional hexes with fire (thereby providing more illumination) at the enemy's location via casting Fireball, however these spawned fire are random and not a reliable occurrence.
To complicate things further, there are at least 2 additional reinforcement waves of multiple Vampires and Skeletons, spawning without warning in the periphery and a weakened group caught unawares by these is likely to be in grave danger. All in all, this is a well-designed battle illustrating again the vital importance of illumination against the undead, requiring sound positioning and careful calculation to avoid/minimize casualties.
Mission 17 (Firstborn's Servant):
This mission features vampires and skeletons just like the one before but is much less difficult. For one, there are no Liches here, nor are there enemy reinforcements. The temple pillars and interior provide usable choke points and with the Knight tanking one side, the party can focus on swiftly burning down incoming mobs on the other. Karranak himself, while certainly a threatening foe, is an easy target for archers and if focussed fired will go down quite fast as he doesn't have much armor. Not terribly difficult but after a tough battle like the previous one, an easier scenario is probably a good idea.
Mission 18 (You shall not pass):
Nicely constructed battle here, featuring some overhead damage from obelisks (the 2 furthest ones do not appear destructible though - also covered under Bugs section). The party starts out flanked on both sides by dwarven axethrowers on elevated terrain and runesmiths ahead behind barricades, so enemy units have an early advantage in placement. Here the Mountaineer passive (provided by the Winged Messenger artifact and inherent in dwarves) is especially useful, allowing rapid access to the axethrowers. Having a Knight is useful as well, allowing an individual tanky unit to flank around to access the trail to get up to tie up the axethrowers and reducing overhead damage incurred early on is key to doing well here. This is also an odd situation where the spellcasters and the bearer of the Night Sun medallion can act as semi-tanks by virtue of having better Magic Resistance, by placing them slightly ahead as the obelisks target the nearest foe. As the Runesmiths have recently been nerfed, I would not mind seeing 1-2 additional dwarven units (perhaps 1 axethrower and 1 clan warrior) to balance things out, but generally speaking this battle still offers some challenge as it stands, and it is good to have a scenario emphasize less used game elements.
Mission 19 (Lavermus the White):
A battle of attrition with poison toads coming in waves. The toads generally don't have the capacity to do enough damage to be a threat once the spiders are slain, but they do need a few hits to put down and there are a lot of them. Not difficult but probably doesn't really need to be tougher as both Karranak and Delia are absent from this one. After this mission I now understand why Delia starts with 4 Speed. Suffice it to say, after this mission, I no longer consider her underpowered. Also, with Lynton around, she levels at a reasonable speed and gets MP upgrades quite often, extending her role as a reliable single target healer.
Mission 20 (Green Storm):
As with previous siege maps (missions 8 and 10), the spellcasters constitute the main threat. Get rid of all 4 Orc Shamans early and the battle becomes a rather staid affair. The Shamans have both consumables and enough levels for Elemental Mage with pools nearby, so merely trying to weather the damage will probably prove traumatic. Would be nice I think at some point to have a battle where you need assault a fortification, rather than being the one to defend against an assault (which I consider far easier).
There was a sudden damage spike early on, which destroyed the catapult and put Karranak, the paladin and an allied swordsman at low hps, which I couldn't quite explain (perhaps I really underestimated Orc Shaman damage). Does destruction of an allied catapult cause AoE damage to surroundings? Other than that, no real surprises. Generally not a tough battle with reasonable play and sound division of forces (admittedly I did have the paladin on board for this battle). Still I believe this battle could do with perhaps a couple less allied defenders (none died during my playthrough) while maintaining about the same xp pool.
Mission 21 (Troll Cave):
Starting out poisoned for 5 turns, at about half stamina and in darkness complicates this battle a little but as a whole it is not a tough battle. Focus firing 1-2 mobs at a time is more important than usual as trolls regenerate. Defence at choke points and avoiding unnecessary overexposure is the order of the day. If the trolls get lucky with their swings, you can suffer heavy damage spikes and should have fresh meleers to replace the frontline. The priestess, paladin and the bearer of the Night Sun medallion can all provide Illumination, thereby improving the odds for successful evasion and Rain of Rocks from the mage imposes Stun to augment this even further. A fun battle focussing on damage control and positioning.
Mission 22 (They Come In Silence):
This is also a fairly tough battle. Even though there are only 11 Silent Hunters, these otherworldly foes are all L14 with amped up stats and have ghastly abilities (mana drain, despair, can hit twice per turn if stationary). Spellcasters are almost useless here (start with insufficient action points and will be mana drained on the very next round) and there is a very real risk of morale and stamina ruin if a unit is repeatedly targeted by Despair.
Illumination again hugely important here as with the previous battle, swinging a potential to-hit from a -4 to a +4. Indeed without the help of good Illumination conditions and the help of Stunning blows (Paladin and wielder of Danarron's Hammer), it will be an uphill battle to take down your opponents as they all boast high stats. Prudent defensive placement and damage reduction is also just as important as dishing out good damage, as your adversaries here can dispense heavy damage with their rending claws. A really nice change in terms of variety in enemy units, after settling on orcs and undead as standard opponents. Set-Shamar doesn't automatically kill one of these fearsome opponents, on which I agree to be good design and an appropriate restriction.
Details of playthrough for balancing purposes: xp for each unit, gold received, upgrades I took, purchases I made, etc: http://imgur.com/a/eFDjy
Thoughts on units (continued):
Karranak:
A really powerful, albeit rather unwieldy frontliner as Broad Swing necessitates some caution with placement and having Slow Attack results in significant restrictions when maneuvering into attack position without being too exposed in return. Poor evasion and mediocre armor rating can result in this character being a drain on heals. Being Huge and bearing no shield paints him a juicy target for enemy ranged attackers and even on the walls, he is likely to take more damage than others. I think it's good design to occasionally have a unit with some extremes and flaws and have the player figure out how best to utilize them so no gripes on this unit.
Paladin:
Another powerful meleer with all around good stats, strong defensive potential, morale boosting capabilities and an ideal unit to lead and shore up the shield wall when Roderick is elsewhere. Stunning blows make it very significantly easier for other units to pile up on the paladin's target, so his accuracy should not be neglected as it potentially helps the party as a whole when he lands his strike. In the playthrough, I got mine from an event and while he did cost more than a regular paladin, I certainly felt it was gold well spent.
Bugs:
1)Only the closest obelisk in the mission "You shall not pass" can be destroyed. Despite being labelled as destructible, I was not able to get any unit in melee range to strike at the other two obelisks to destroy them.
2)Varilenten's hiring options are misleading/confusing
The text shown is as follows:
"It is tempting, but I cannot abandon the minister. If you donate one hundred gold he will be able to hire a replacement, and I will join your company. If not, I'll help defend the city for just ten gold."
The 3 options are listed below and they are all rather ambiguous as they all appear to agree to a donation.
a)I'll do that. I trust that your city's council will match my donation.
After picking this option, no gold is deducted and Varilenten does not help in city defence. Therefore this option should read as: "I'm afraid I cannot donate. Surely the city's council will recompense you for helping to defend the city."
b)As you wish. I will make the donation.
After picking this option, 10G is deducted from your coffers and Varilenten helps in city defence as an allied NPC. So this should read: "As you wish. I will make a donation of ten gold"
c)I will gladly give one hundred gold to secure your services. Welcome to the Silver Griffins, Varilenten.
After picking this option, 100G is deducted and Varilenten joins the party permanently and is a controllable unit in city defence. This option is fine as written.
There also appears to be another possibility where only option a) and b) are available. Based on Karma perhaps? Those options should be corrected too as above.
Some misc points worthy of discussion:
1)The xp received after a battle for the Knight in the Victory screen cannot be read properly because his icon covers the left digits.
2)Stronghold. This artifact shield provides both Defender and Formation passives but any unit bearing a shield currently already has the Formation passive, whereas units not starting off with shields are not allowed to use this artifact, nor are Knights allowed to use them, so the Formation passive appears redundant here.
3)Varilenten's initial xp. Probably not a bug but needs clarification.
In mission 20 (Green Storm), after the battle, the paladin Varilenten received a lot more xp (362xp) than mentioned in the victory screen (142xp). 220 free xp is essentially 3 free levels. Would like some confirmation as to whether this is a bug or is intended as it will affect balance when playtesting in later battles. Right now I'm assuming perhaps the paladin starts out as an experienced combatant, as his hiring cost upfront was slightly more than a regular paladin, even though he is L1 during the actual battle.
4)XP for optional missions/branches. As shown by the table in spoilers section, optional missions carry considerable xp awards and I'm a little worried that this could result in some imbalance and level disparity between players later on in the game.
The whole chain of missions: "You shall not pass", "Lavermus The White", "Green Storm", "Troll Cave" appears to be optional and totals up to a whopping 2676.
The Pursuit mission earlier on, while being really easy is also flush with xp: 834! It is true that I had Lynton at this point and the xp received for Delia and the mage was doubled. But even after deducting these, xp total comes up to about 678. That's about twice that of a tough mission like Dark Clouds. Also it is an optional mission and could be missed either by paying the peasants or battling them.
5)King Tybald mentions that: "and you spearheaded the defence of Bantirm".
If the party skipped on collecting the herb lavermus, the party would also not be involved in Bantirm, correct? If so, the above phrase would make little sense.
6)Miscellaneous small issues:
a)Did Shallter actually find anything interesting in the temple at Mafazar? Wasn't really described in the text and that was the reason why they headed there in the first place, no? Perhaps some additional text here would be appropriate.
b)His thought kept returning to how the walls were undermined. Prefer his "thoughts"
c)The hairs on the back of his neck stood to attention. Prefer stood "at" attention
1) The error with obelisks has been fixed. Thank you.
2) It's difficult for me to evaluate dialogues (my English is very bad). Therefore, the text can be better only if you clearly write what I replace. Sorry.
Thanks. I will replace the text. Yes, Varilenten can join only if the karma is high.
1) The xp received after a battle for the Knight in the Victory...
Yes, we have to do something about this. I think drawing a knight a little less.
2) Stronghold. Well, there can be units with a shield, but without a formation. Although there are no such. Consider this a factor in the sequel.
3) Varilenten gets a bonus experience. It's not a error. A catapult is always blown up. This is a scripted diversion.
4) Experience in the army is given only for killing enemies (then the experience is divided into all the units). The more enemies there are and the stronger they are, the more experience. I do not know what can be changed here.
5) King Tybald mentions that: "and you spearheaded the defence of Bantirm"...
I agree. I'll add the option to the dialog.
6)
a) Shelter remains behind the scenes. I think we need to stick to the line that the player knows only what Roderick knows. Maybe we'll find out about this in the sequel
b) What exactly do you propose to do?
c) What exactly do you propose to do?
Lol you certainly know how to tease your players :D
Good, good, I thoroughly look forward to the sequel. But first we shall make the current game a well-polished product and hope for good sales
Ouch! So that's what happened. I'm glad I wasn't imagining things lol. Next time, I will take care not to place units too close to it. Well, I'm fine with things as they are but I foresee there might be some players complaining about arbitrary unforeseen damage. If some explanation could be given during the battle, would be good, otherwise just leave it.
4) Experience in the army is given only for killing enemies (then the experience is divided into all the units). The more enemies there are and the stronger they are, the more experience. I do not know what can be changed here.
Well it's not a big deal I guess. I suppose I would consider slightly lowering the xp given in optional paths (without lowering the number/levels of enemies). Personally I'm actually perfectly ok with it. I'm just anticipating that there may be some players who prefer to rush through things (don't know why they do so - I play turn based tactics games to enjoy the battles xD) and end up considerably behind in xp.
On 6b and c, I've put the proposed tweaks in quotes. They're rather subjective though. I suppose some may think the original version to be fine and I'm not really a native English speaker (though I'd like to think I have fair proficiency in it) so it's up to you. Not a big issue or priority.
Spoilers on missions 23-27 and details of my playthrough continue below:
It's good to have some non-linearity here, where you pick which missions to attempt first in Arbeyya. None of the next 4 missions are really any difficult and you do get to a point where the start up becomes fairly formulaic (ensure archers/mages have targets on turn 1, pack up for Bless and Heroic Cry x2 (Roderick + Paladin), form a line to protect the squishier units).
Mission 23 (Industrial Espionage):
Lots of high damage but low defense/armor enemy units here. There is no rush to engage and ranged attackers should be focussed on diminishing Orc Berzerker and Ripper numbers before they have much chance to clash with your frontline. No enemy spellcasters here so incoming damage is largely quite predictable. Boar Riders like to flank around to look for softer targets (mage/archers) and it is prudent to intercept them just before they close in. Knights do augmented damage to riders and can be reliably left alone to tackle small groups of these with minimal support. Once the battle is a foregone conclusion, the remaining enemy units can be tanked and kills doled out to units who do not yet have the Orc Hunter passive. It is likely that by the end of this mission, most units will now have the passive. Overall, a fairly simple and straightforward mission.
Pack of grenades is available after this mission. Any chance of getting satchel charges as well? xD Incoming!!
Mission 24 (A Different Kind of Job):
I liked the parts leading up to the combat. It has a rather mini gamebook-like feel, where you explore options and make choices and is a refreshing change from combat. There are a few issues here to be sorted out though (mentioned in more detail in Bugs section). As for the ensuing battle, it's nice to once again see obelisks being used as perimeter defense. This is not a tough battle either so long as ranged threats (archers and mages) behind barricades are prioritized and dealt with swiftly. Knight AI may need a little tweaking as they tend to cluster up and rush ahead and are therefore easy targets and even less effective than swordsmen. This mission also introduces the Harbinger, a dread knight like enemy unit with Thorns and high armor. More of these would have been nice as they are a little tougher to deal with, compared with the average unit, and total number of units are about equal on both sides.
Mission 25 (Settlement of Heretics):
Sided with Emelyne here and it was nice to receive mass bless. Also a little surprised at first that all friendly spellcasters started with reduce mana. Later on I realized that it was because I was fighting Sagarus. It's good to have a scenario where the enemy has access to healers (this being one of the first), else it would be pretty lopsided. The AI plays healers competently, using Bless and heals as appropriate and generally keeping them out of trouble. Lots of trees here providing adequate cover against ranged attacks and Singing Sword units would do especially well here. Generally speaking, the challenge in this one is also rather tame as the AI is more spread out and does not have much of a numbers advantage.
Mission 26 (An Eye for an Eye):
Hah so I get the feeling I probably wasn't supposed to do this one. Or at least Vlad doesn't approve of it. On one hand, I like that the penalty is pretty significant, otherwise choosing to go into battles would be an automatic choice (xp and gold and possibly items). On the other hand, missing out on a later task/ possible recruitment/ better ending because of Karma might prove quite disappointing. I kinda consider the Griffins a mercenary company and tend to take anything with good pay provided it's not too heinous. But it's good to know there are game designers out there with a more respectable moral compass. ^^
The battle itself is an assault on 3 rather spread out enemy groups, marked by campfires, with roughly equal numbers on both sides. While this is certainly not a particularly tough battle to win, it is a pretty slow and frustrating one and can prove quite tricky to manage, as your starting position is very cramped and there is little room to maneuver. Knights in particular are problematic here, as lacking adequate room to maneuver may see a frontline Knight being saddled with the Loner malus on quite a few turns. Line of sight for ranged combatants is also a big issue, with multiple tall boulders blocking the view and ranged accuracy can also be potentially hampered by lack of illumination. Venturing forth into enemy ground will be swiftly punished as most routes of access are 1-hex wide and your frontline is going to get blocked by enemy swordsmen and peppered by enemy archers, mages and obelisks. The safer choice is of course to stay put and let the enemy get into those 1-hex lanes. Enemy mages should be prioritized above all else as they will inflict heavy damage on closely packed formations. They can also inadvertently close off some routes by spawning ground fires via their Fireballs, which may make the battle an even more protracted affair. Some care needs to be taken to ensure a unit with decent Magic Resistance is nearest to the obelisks, or overhead damage per turn may eventually overwhelm the healers.
Mission 27 (The Harvest):
Another tense battle with the undead. No reinforcements here unlike mission 16, so it is a bit easier but not by much. High level Ghouls can be almost as damaging as Vampires and you will be swarmed en masse by both, by turn 2 on open ground. Vampires use Stun and Winter's Breath potions to deadly effect before engaging. Tactics are fairly similar to mission 16, optimizing light conditions for engaged units and ensuring the frontline does not get overwhelmed, giving way if necessary to deny double strikes. Harbingers are probably best tackled by ranged attackers and the Knight. Ignite is useful to have here, building up a choke point, providing fire arrows for archers and denying incoming enemy units bonuses to accuracy/evasion from darkness. As with maps featuring obelisks, it is also nice to have units with decent Magic Resistance here, to help soak Lich damage.
Bugs:
1)Emelyne's introduction links to Sagarus's introduction
After the "Settlement of Heretics" battle, Emelyne joins, therefore "br28t7" should be triggered: "Roderick stared at the body of the Vanquisher of Heresy..."
Currently after the battle "br28t6" is still triggered, even if you sided with Emelyne: "You fought well, commander, Sagarus said to Roderick...", which is not the right continuation.
2)Brief introduction required for Osmond if "leave square" option chosen
If Roderick orders the guards to release the elderly man in Rivercross, he is thrown in prison and later freed by Osmond. This option is fine.
If Roderick ignores the man and leaves the square, the next reference starts with "Osmond unrolled a map of Rivercross." Who Osmond is, is not explained.
Strongly suggest inserting this bit before the reference above: "Roderick made his way to the Rivercross townhall, meeting up with Royal Investigator Osmond to discuss the details of the abductions."
3)Delia's interaction with Roderick as he wakes up from his trance does not trigger.
From br31t18: "Wake up! Wake up, Roderick! Roderick heard the words as if they had been shouted through a hurricane. ..."
I believe this should happen after Roderick deals with his doppelganger. It is not linked (for any apparent reason) and skipped over in the Black Mirror node.
4)Battle Magic bonus not applied to ranged attacks.
Its description reads: All Magical damage dealt +1. The +1 is added to Str and unit stats are updated correctly. However the +1 damage is NOT actually applied in battle for regular ranged attacks (observe hps deducted). For spells like Rain or Rocks, etc, the +1 damage from Battle Magic is applied correctly.
5)Bridge built over a ford still incurs movement penalty of ford (2AP to cross).
So first I used the Dig skill on one of the swordsmen to convert a plain hex into a ford hex. Next I used the runesmith's construction skill to build a bridge on that ford hex. I expected the bridge to have no movement penalties but it appears not to be the case. Bridges built over water function normally with no movement penalties.
6)Spreading fire may zero AP for next round??
Not too sure what happened here but I had a turn where the runesmith was near some hexes with fire on them. On his next turn the fire had spread to his hex and I found that his AP was 0. He was also stunned during the enemy's turn but so far stun has always worked as advertised so I'm inclined to believe that it's the ground fire which bugs out unit AP. On the next turn, the runesmith received AP as normal and could move again.
Old issues still present:
Delia's intro still not fixed after "An Orcish brand of siege" (same bug from my first post (3rd bug))
"br10t3" and "br10t4" should trigger after the battle
Minor typos/grammatical errors:
1)From "br27t18": This rang could belong to anyone, Fasil.
Should be this "rag", not this "rang".
2)From "br32t1": The Silver Griffins were to accompany the royal advisor to excavate Svenefeld's mounts.
Should be "mounds", not "mounts".
The last unit slot has opened up. Not too sure what to take though. If I had enough Karma, might try Singing Sword for variety but I don't. Certainly don't need another healer. Another Knight could be strong if ambushed and surrounded but they perform poorly on cramped battles. I feel like more ranged support would be nice. Especially on maps where you're defending a fort. Archers have great range but start off quite weak. Not too sure if I can get one up to a decent level with the remaining missions. Might opt for a mage in the end. At least those start off strong with spells.
And that brings me to the end of beta 3. If allowed I would like to have the last part (if there is one). I'm quite happy to pay for it of course
zhuge,many thanks! Special thanks for giving the keys to the briefings!
Your help is excellent! Of course, I'll send you the steam-key. I want to point you out in thanks. How do I write you?
I corrected typos. Bugs with a bridge and Battle magic will check in the evening.
Charges are planned in the sequel. Fair. Now I do not have the strength to do it anymore. It is necessary to polish what has been done.
"6)Spreading fire may zero AP for next round??" - Something very strange. Fire should not extend to cells with units (except for ents). And he has no influence on AP. Was there an object (tree, bridge, etc.) under the unit?
This week I will send the last part. Who else is ready to continue testing - write to me!
Main changes:
- new marker cells for moving with color numbers
- Holding down in battle, you can learn the characteristics of the unit and the chances at any point
- display damage from spells
- made intro and outro
- updated manual
Minor edits:
- Fixed rare flashing of the band on the world map
- Fixed blinking text in the top left corner on the world map in dialogs
- small edit of AI
- minor balance adjustments for missions
- some rare small bugs fixed
- changed the conclusion of the staistics after the missions (because of the knights)
Please let me know when you have a new version. I lost my save somehow, and I got Darkest Dungeon DLC. So I was side-tracked the last 2 weeks but can test again this week.
Wow really! Woot! :D I was actually mostly joking when I suggested it, though I think it's also probably not too bad an idea if properly balanced. A bit like a mini Barrel of Gunpowder if you will, but one you can place at choke points. Of course these need to be very limited.
"6)Spreading fire may zero AP for next round??" - Something very strange. Fire should not extend to cells with units (except for ents). And he has no influence on AP. Was there an object (tree, bridge, etc.) under the unit?
Thanks for the clarification. Nothing directly under the runesmith that I recall. It was a plain hex. However there was a tree in a hex adjacent to the runesmith.
I was wondering also if could it be Liquid Fire flung by the enemy, but I don't think that fits either. I've had instances where enemy units flung those against my units, had fire underneath them the next round but had AP as normal and no difficulty moving away from the fire on their turn.
I can't think of anything else. Perhaps it was some odd random bug. It was also the first time I had a unit have fire underneath them because of possible spreading. If I manage to duplicate it, I will notify you.
I am heavily involved in project presentation for my workplace for the next few days and will be unavailable till around Tuesday. Will continue beta testing as usual after that.
The mechanics of charge are interesting. It can be added to some artifacts or skills, add items (like, a set of throwing weapons). But I need to edit the interface, so now I will not do it.
Maybe the smith fell a burning tree and stunned him? Because of the liquid fire it could not be.
Falling trees skip victim's turn? That's new to me.
Finished part 3:
1. I confess I am the idiot who name that mission "Lavermus the White" in English, not knowing that Lavermus is meant to be a kind of herb, should be back to White Lavermus by now.
2. Agree with zhuge that Path to Eternity is the peak of difficulty of this portion, some missions are kinda formulaic like A Different kind of job, still a lot of nice touches like Sagarus/Emelyne dichotomy or rewarding/challenging different line ups.
Unfortunately I didn't read the plot text that much, no input on it. I will try to help with the tool tip on illumination though if that is needed.
Falling trees skip victim's turn? That's new to me.
Finished part 3:
1. I confess I am the idiot who name that mission "Lavermus the White" in English, not knowing that Lavermus is meant to be a kind of herb, should be back to White Lavermus by now.
2. Agree with zhuge that Path to Eternity is the peak of difficulty of this portion, some missions are kinda formulaic like A Different kind of job, still a lot of nice touches like Sagarus/Emelyne dichotomy or rewarding/challenging different line ups.
Unfortunately I didn't read the plot text that much, no input on it. I will try to help with the tool tip on illumination though if that is needed.
If I recall correctly, the tree was just a normal tree, it wasn't burning and it wasn't cut down by the smith, nor was any enemy unit nearby to cut it down. I placed the smith adjacent to the tree to "hide" him from enemy ranged attacks.
I've used Karranak to cut a tree down in a different battle. It fell as it should, hit an enemy, did appropriate damage and Stun. Of course the enemy unit did not skip its turn and had AP to strike a nearby swordsman. No issues there.
Yea "White Lavermus" sounds better to me too. I initially thought Lavermus was a grand wizard of some sort who would give a quest or help the party (like Saruman the White in Lord of the Rings xD)
Difficulty in beta 3 is generally ok I think, but I'm fine with adding an extra unit or two here and there. I don't want to make things midgame too difficult for the people playing on Normal though. Been criticized by a friend for ruining the Smith already
But please feel free to pull out all the stops in the final 10 missions or so. Time to build up to a climax and bring us an epic and memorable ending. It won't be satisfying if the last few missions are easy. I would probably tune it to the point that some casualties are expected (last few missions already anyway) and that you really need to use consumables now.
I'm glad Battle Magic is fixed, bridge bug is less consequential but good to see fixed as well.
, may bad.
On one hand, I like that the penalty is pretty significant, otherwise choosing to go into battles would be an automatic choice (xp and gold and possibly items). On the other hand, missing out on a later task/ possible recruitment/ better ending because of Karma might prove quite disappointing. I kinda consider the Griffins a mercenary company and tend to take anything with good pay provided it's not too heinous. But it's good to know there are game designers out there with a more respectable moral compass. ^^
