Should I include System Shock 2?

[IncendiaryDevice]

I'll be creating the poll for 1999 RPGs tomorrow sometime, so this is just a quick 24 hour poll to find out if I should be including System Shock 2.

The specifics for this game seem a whole lot more complicated than most games, even other hybrids which are usually just 2 genres moulded together. SS2 however seems to be lots and lots of stuff. Or, what we would today refer to as an FPS with minor RPG elements.

1) It was never meant to be a System Shock sequel, this only happened after production had got going along, most likely for name recognition purposes.

2) It promotes itself as an FPS first and foremost, and also as a Horror Survival, and also as an 'action' RPG.

If this game was released today without the name recognition, such as with its sequels the Bioshock series, it's highly unlikely the codex would consider it an RPG.

It's without doubt that the game is considered both good and highly influential generally, but should it be something that gets voted on in a poll of great RPGs? If it was included in the lists would people be voting for it just as a good game rather than as a good RPG?

Would people here use it's possible exclusion as an excuse to flip their shit "cos [insert hybrid RPG I don't like] is included so why not this one"?

Simple vote, yes or no, the result here is the result which will carry.*

My stance was immediately no after reading about it, but I've never played it, hence the fielding to the codex. Poll closes in less than 24 hours. One vote only, you can't change your vote, voting is anonymous.

*Highly brofisted/agreed etc posts to the thread may out-value the poll if it seems either side is particularly vociferous, these polls are supposed to reflect active forum users opinions, after all.

 

[Krivol]

You included Dark Messiah of M&M and asking about SS2?

 

[Chainsaw Gutsfuck]

It was never meant to be a System Shock sequel, this only happened after production had got going along, most likely for name recognition purposes.

I think you confused the two System Shock games. System Shock 2 is the one that contains RPG elements, not the original.

 

[Zarniwoop]

Fuck off it's not an RPG. Millennials came up with a new retarded name for it now, "immersive sim". Yes. Really. It simulates immersiveness I guess.

 

[deama]

I'd disagree that it's an RPG since I don't remember making any choices; and I don't think character progression choices is enough.

You included Dark Messiah of M&M and asking about SS2?

In M&M you have some minor choices such as using your demon powers or not (which can effect some of the story), then there's another part I remember about choosing whether to fight the orc leader fairly, kill all the orcs, or use dirty tricks to kill the leader *then* kill the orcs. These are minor choices, but they are still there, not to mention the end-game choice.

In SS2 there's no choices from what I remember, not even minor ones.

I mean, sure, you can approach situations differently, skip all the mobs in SS2, use a variety of weapons, stealth kill them...
but you can do that in M&M too, on top of the choices that it already has.

 

[Krivol]

Creating ideas for theories IMO....

 

[Luckmann]

I only read the question. I did not read the post.

If the question is "Should I include System Shock 2", the answer is always yes.

Should you include System Shock 2 in kitchens? Yes.
Should you include System Shock 2 in a survey? Yes.
Should you include System Shock 2 in your sex life? Yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

When in doubt, always include System Shock 2.

 

[Jenkem]

the only good game ken levine ever made?

sure

 

[utarefson]

Fuck off it's not an RPG. Millennials came up with a new retarded name for it now, "immersive sim". Yes. Really. It simulates immersiveness I guess.

Ken Levine is a millenial?
Also the 90's are not "now".

the only good game ken levine ever made?

sure

He also made SWAT 4. Not sure how much he was involved with Thief.

[...]
My stance was immediately no after reading about it, but I've never played it, hence the fielding to the codex. [...]

Well, that really depends on how you define an RPG, but i'd say it is definitly more of an RPG than it is an FPS since the latter literally is just your perspective on the world, even the original Deus Ex is closer to an FPS in its combat system.
Whether you think you think if it can measure up to a full RPG or not is up to you, but even if you have no interest in playing it, you might want to skim over a youtube longplay.

 

[Haplo]

An FPS for me. Clearly not an RPG.

 

[Junmarko]

the only good game ken levine ever made?

sure

He also made SWAT 4. Not sure how much he was involved with Thief.

Don't forget Freedom Force vs The Third Reich.

 

[Chainsaw Gutsfuck]

"cRPG" is basically a terribly inaccurate name in regards to the genre it was given, since it gives the impression that it's all about simulating the role playing experience in a computer environment. If the early titles of the genre were given a name more appropriate to the nature of their gameplay (like dungeon crawlers) we wouldn't have this discussion now. The term gradually shifted meaning to include everything with a hint of character building, which is also a misuse of the term.

In order to use the term meaningfully, one would have to apply it only to the games that are actually involving role playing, but that would entail a definition that would now feel "forced" since in the mind of the public what an RPG is supposed to be has long been established.

 

[ciox]

I think it should be included, it's a relatively story-heavy game with lots of character progression and detail in its world, choices and consequences are low but that's the only strike against SS2 as an RPG.

Fuck off it's not an RPG. Millennials came up with a new retarded name for it now, "immersive sim". Yes. Really. It simulates immersiveness I guess.

Immersive sim is a really old term, but it's being championed now so that every shitty walking simulator can sponge off a little bit of the prestige of complex FPS/RPG games for 0.5% extra sales.

I don't think you can call System Shock 2 an FPS. That would imply that people actually enjoyed the combat in that game.

It wouldn't be so bad if SS2 didn't inherit the collision checking from Thief without any changes, enemies just have two big spheres around their torso area and that's it you can just shoot through their legs or often heads and not hit anything, really stupid idea that.

 

[Master]

I mean, sure, you can approach situations differently, skip all the mobs in SS2, use a variety of weapons, stealth kill them...

Yes but how well you can do those or whether you can do some at all is determined by build.

 

[Junmarko]

Speaking of...

 

[Master]

What exactly did Ken Levine do on SS2 other than mocaping the monkeys?

 

[ciox]

What exactly did Ken Levine do on SS2 other than mocaping the monkeys?

He made a large first draft of the design document for the whole game, similar to what Spector did with Deus Ex, so he deserves cred for setting the stage. For in-game content it was writing and things like that, speech and audio logs, though not all of them since in the game files there's some old stuff where you can see update revisions of the old audio logs (some are pretty rudimentary/bad, refer to planet "Canopus" instead of Tau Ceti V) and revisions were being submitted by several people at Irrational.
IIRC he also did some of the scripted sequences in the editor, could be the complex phantom mass execution one, could be the one where a monkey runs up your ass when you search for loot behind some crates in the cargo bays, who knows, but he was familiar with the hellish DromEd.

I guess you can ask him on twitter, he answers most questions like that these days.

 

[anvi]

It is a FPS. And I think it is important that people remember it as an FPS to remind the world that FPS don't have to be retarded military shooters for dude bro dickheads.

 

[Master]

I guess you can ask him on twitter, he answers most questions like that these days.

I dont want any contact with him. It seems he is just a writer and doesnt know anything about RPGs.

It is a FPS. And I think it is important that people remember it as an FPS to remind the world that FPS don't have to be retarded military shooters for dude bro dickheads.

But technically you play a space marine blasting aliens and mutants. Though you never become a real badass for it to be a shooter. I think for something to be considered a shooter your character has to be a badass dude that doesnt have to pump stats and needs nothing except his gun.

 

[ciox]

I guess you can ask him on twitter, he answers most questions like that these days.

I dont want any contact with him. It seems he is just a writer and doesnt know anything about RPGs.

That's not the case, like Spector he used to play a good amount of D&D, was into Ultima Underworld, and basically designed System Shock 2 as a mashup of System Shock and Ultima Underworld, the psi powers in SS2 used to be a lot more reminiscent of UU's during development with lots of simple utility stuff like casting light or softening your falls.
Another heavy influence on the RPG systems in SS2 was the original Fallout with its perks and simplified attributes. During beta the game's stats were basically SEIAL to Fallout's SPECIAL.

All the decline that followed SS2 had nothing to do with the roots, it was from publisher meddling and plain old trying to make it big. Going way too far in dumbing down the games for consoles didn't help either (see Deus Ex: The Conspiracy for how a game can be gracefully dumbed down for console)

 

[Average Manatee]

The major difference between the nowadays FPS w/ stats games and SS2 is that in SS2 you actually have a character build that meaningfully affects your capabilities. FPS w/ stats games don't do this. They are like a DOOM clone where the question is whether you want to dump +10% damage bonuses on your shotgun or chaingun. But psi and hacking together open so many more valid gameplay options that it becomes a new type of game. It should be considered an ARPG, along with stuff like Diablo/Deus Ex/Souls games/TES games.

It wouldn't be so bad if SS2 didn't inherit the collision checking from Thief without any changes, enemies just have two big spheres around their torso area and that's it you can just shoot through their legs or often heads and not hit anything, really stupid idea that.

On the other hand it does include Thief's stealth system. I wonder if anyone has tried a pure-stealth run of SS2, theoretically I think you could get all the way to Body of the Many without needing to use psi invisibility. If you hide in shadows enemies walk right past you, even cameras will lose you in shadows.

 

[Master]

All the decline that followed SS2 had nothing to do with the roots, it was from publisher meddling and plain old trying to make it big. Going way too far in dumbing down the games for consoles didn't help either (see Deus Ex: The Conspiracy for how a game can be gracefully dumbed down for console)

SS2 systems werent dumbed down, they were just removed, like riped out. I really hope Ken burns in Hell for that. There was some interview with some two guys where it seemed they were the ones who came up with all the systems, to make it more horror like, but i cant find it.

On the other hand it does include Thief's stealth system. I wonder if anyone has tried a pure-stealth run of SS2, theoretically I think you could get all the way to Body of the Many without needing to use psi invisibility. If you hide in shadows enemies walk right past you, even cameras will lose you in shadows.

It does include that system but theres not enough shadows and also sound producing surfaces are not granular like in Thief, they just alarm enemies and some dont make sound at all and you can even jump and no one will hear. Its simpler than Thief, but it works well... Stealth becomes mainly about speed where greater speed allows you to safely zip across hallways, and if fast enough even in plain sight of enemies without them noticing you. It reminded me of that Metal Gear game, Resurgence(?), i didnt play it but they advertised it as having something called "blitz stealth" where it worked like that.