Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Game News Copper Dreams Kickstarter Update #16: Ticks and Tiles

Whalenought_Joe

Whalenought Studios
Developer
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
215
Location
Nosgoth
Thanks guys!

Conceptually it hasn’t really changed from the original KS concept, recovery and actions times are just shorter so you can react more effectively to changes during combat. That’s been a lot more fun than planning longer phases, they leave you less room for options. It definitely plays snappier as result, much more fun.

So while the combat bar we were originally using represented a variable amount of time, and the ticks rather represent finite chunks of “time”. Visually it’s more accurate for at-a-glance comparisons between characters.

They should make a video update and explain the system while playing. I'm still interpreting all of this that it isn't very far off from how Grandia works, even if it's not the same thing.

We’ll be doing that next update, we just wanted to get something out about the schedule and new alpha stuff. It's still essentially like the Grandia system, just adapted to work better in a more intricate grid to fight in.

We should probably come up with a term for the system since it doesn’t really resemble other systems, we haven’t put much thought into it since the KS last year. Step-by-step turn based. Individual phase based. Perpetual simultaneous phase based. I don’t know, just going with turn based for now.

Only thing I don't know is if you can influence how fast your character does these actions or is this always same time for action and same time for recovery.

Recovery + Action times in a turn vary based on character Virtues associated with the action and any ailments received. Putting points into the Aptitude score for weapons/items just increases the number you roll under to aim or use them effectively, which limits what a player can control beyond trying not to get shot. Ailment changes per body part are straight forward, arm damage might add to recovery after an attack, and/or action time if it’s a melee attack, head damage might add more ticks to aim, leg damage might mean longer recovery after moving or even maiming a character to limit movement actions like crawling and jumping. On the list of things to get in is a hover over an action to get a preview of the ticks it’ll take to perform.
 
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
3,144
Maybe having decision-length bound to character initiative rather than action length would be a better call still hmm (or having a steep threshold for initiating a small action I guess)

The original system was cool in theory but would have led to a very unusual and niche game. I feel like what they've created here has a chance of breaking out and becoming popular. It's snappy and intuitive.

dunno, I have the feeling that the advantage of phase-based over RT or TB alternatives decreases the less weight decision moments have. You can't change your plan on a moment to moment basis like in RT, or execute and tweak it in increments like in TB, so the fun in Frozen Synapse or Diplomacy comes from mulling over all the variables involved in a single sweeping move.

Of course when you bring the scale down from grand strategy or squad tactics to a single character cRPG you need to add more action options to keep those decision moments interesting, but when you have a ton of small decision moments spent checking bullet trajectories to perform SHMUP-y bullet dodges, the decisions seem to inevitably become a bit trivial.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Joe mentioned on the internal forums that if the .25 sec tick time is too short they could easily change it to .5 seconds instead - will be subject to playtesting.

It does seem like the current iteration as described fits a lot better to the gameplay ideas that were discussed 'on paper' 2 years ago internally than what they went with initially for the Kickstarter.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,225
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
We should probably come up with a term for the system since it doesn’t really resemble other systems, we haven’t put much thought into it since the KS last year. Step-by-step turn based. Individual phase based. Perpetual simultaneous phase based. I don’t know, just going with turn based for now.

"Step-based" seems like a good short description that intuitively conveys how this system plays.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,879
Maybe having decision-length bound to character initiative rather than action length would be a better call still hmm (or having a steep threshold for initiating a small action I guess)

The original system was cool in theory but would have led to a very unusual and niche game. I feel like what they've created here has a chance of breaking out and becoming popular. It's snappy and intuitive.

dunno, I have the feeling that the advantage of phase-based over RT or TB alternatives decreases the less weight decision moments have. You can't change your plan on a moment to moment basis like in RT, or execute and tweak it in increments like in TB, so the fun in Frozen Synapse or Diplomacy comes from mulling over all the variables involved in a single sweeping move.

Of course when you bring the scale down from grand strategy or squad tactics to a single character cRPG you need to add more action options to keep those decision moments interesting, but when you have a ton of small decision moments spent checking bullet trajectories to perform SHMUP-y bullet dodges, the decisions seem to inevitably become a bit trivial.
I don't think you will be dodging bullets but enemy aim... at least I hope bullets will be fast enough dodging them will be super hard without specializing in fast moving.
Also choice between moving to avoid enemy fire or stay and fire back hoping they miss or your armor absorbs it is a real meaningful decision.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,879
We should probably come up with a term for the system since it doesn’t really resemble other systems, we haven’t put much thought into it since the KS last year. Step-by-step turn based. Individual phase based. Perpetual simultaneous phase based. I don’t know, just going with turn based for now.

"Step-based" seems like a good short description that intuitively conveys how this system plays.
Nah, too ordinary.

Whale phased - let a combat system forever be called after them.
 
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
3,144
Also choice between moving to avoid enemy fire or stay and fire back hoping they miss or your armor absorbs it is a real meaningful decision.

That was my point: moment to moment decisions and tradeoffs like whether to shoot but stay exposed or run but not attack take place in TB or RT just as easily. The defining feature of phase-based variants in my mind is that a decision doesn't exist in isolation as a one-off measure, but is more akin to the phase of a plan, with many interlocking parts.

I just don't really get the appeal of fast-paced moment-to-moment phase-based like this or Grandia relative to plain old TB or RT I guess.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
The appeal is that reaction (not reaction speed, but the action of reacting to time-based events) has a higher importance.
 

CRD

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Dec 23, 2014
Messages
297
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Quite a change, and a shame. I liked much more the idea of a Frozen Synapse kind of gameplay on a rpg.
 

Whalenought_Joe

Whalenought Studios
Developer
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
215
Location
Nosgoth
Whalenought_Joe what did you try to do before implementing tics?
I thought that implementing such minimum amount of time for action to happen was obvious choice in the first place.

The tics are just a representation of turn-time, before that character were just moving across a timeline at various speeds in seconds, so it's just a more clear way of looking at the idea of 'time'. Before there were also more options available within a single turn, which is what kept us on that track for a while. You'd set multiple waypoints and attack/use item at the end of it. This made for more pre-planning strategy, but less options to react to enemy turns as you'd be waiting for characters to end theirs and it was up to chance to see how things went.

So it wasn't a huge change just forcing everything to be shorter and providing more opportunities to react, just a different way of going about it from the phase-based sort of thing it was before and making the systems more visually obvious. There's still the same tradeoff of quicker firing from the hip shots to 'charge-up' actions, aiming, or using difficult to use weapons/devices that take more ticks to perform.

The one (!) caveat with all this is how we control companions, which of course has to change or the flow of combat would be bewildering. The solution is fun though and doesn't break the flow of combat, moving from micro-managing them to issuing command locations all at once. We're also happy to be able to give them more autonomy in the world rather than being just PC-minions.
 

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko

Filthy Kalinite
Patron
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
19,109
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
It is just as I thought; tics make for easier bookkeeping.
It is probably now easier to set values for let's say: shooting a rifle from hip.
Time to shoot it might be calculated from basic char stats + relevant weapon skill + ease of weapons handling (carbine shouldn't be the same as anti-material rifle) +how many tics you will you take for to get better aim (Jagged Alliance 2 style).

To be honest I didn't get clarity from the update how movement will work now. You say that it will be in shorter chunks now (if I understood that correctly), but since only turns take x-amount of tics to implement action game that I have played is Titans of Steel (where you usually just give movement order for one hex at a time) I don't have context to compare it to anything that I've encountered before.

*shugs* Perhaps upcoming gameplay video will offer some clarity to that issue.


edit.
The one (!) caveat with all this is how we control companions, which of course has to change or the flow of combat would be bewildering. The solution is fun though and doesn't break the flow of combat, moving from micro-managing them to issuing command locations all at once. We're also happy to be able to give them more autonomy in the world rather than being just PC-minions.

Ian/Marcus/Cassidy hits you in the back?
 
Last edited:

Whalenought_Joe

Whalenought Studios
Developer
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
215
Location
Nosgoth
Ian/Marcus/Cassidy hits you in the back?

Shorter turn times mitigate brazen Ian behavior. AI knows where and when the player is shooting/moving and can have states to react to that during their turns. In their current state they find a spot to aim that leaves a breadth of tiles around their trajectory to a target that doesn't include you in it. Allowing more risky attacks are going to be looked into later, something a player could adjust per-companion. Being able to point them in the right direction during a turn also helps them target intelligently and spread out/flank. The alpha doesn't include the black-market Block where they'd get some companions, so this'll come as an update for that or during the beta which will have more Blocks.

When a player is selecting actions they can also see where companions are aiming or moving to, and any projectiles can show the next tick worth of tiles they are going to cruise through as well as their trajectory after, so the player also gets a fairly comprehensive look of what's going to occur before the turn.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,879
You could include voice commands for companions that let you give them exact targets but cost ticks of time to perform.
 

torpid

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
1,099
Location
Isma's Grove
AI knows where and when the player is shooting/moving and can have states to react to that during their turns. In their current state they find a spot to aim that leaves a breadth of tiles around their trajectory to a target that doesn't include you in it. Allowing more risky attacks are going to be looked into later, something a player could adjust per-companion.
(...)
When a player is selecting actions they can also see where companions are aiming or moving to, and any projectiles can show the next tick worth of tiles they are going to cruise through as well as their trajectory after, so the player also gets a fairly comprehensive look of what's going to occur before the turn.

:shredder:

Loving that you guys have put so much thought into the system and already addressed potential issues.
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,300
Location
Jersey for now
As I said earlier, I will buy. I just don't like the Kickstarter stuff mostly. Except for Larian, that's the only one I did.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom