Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lacrymas]

I'm questioning whether the gods can have a major impact in the lives of people the way they are presented. Sure, they SAY they have, but from a realistic theological perspective I don't think that's the case. If we go by D&D's system where lvl 30+ is essentially Godhood in one way or another, then PoE would be around that range as well, if not a bit higher, so physically interacting with the gods will take some time. Outside of that, only clergy would have a more in-depth connection to the various gods. In D&D the churches are basically organizations which represent their deities' portfolios, in D&D you don't worship the gods out of religious passion, the search for truth or moral guidance, you worship them because they align with your views/interests and can help you achieve stuff. The church of Velsharoon are necromantic adepts who seek knowledge and technique relating to that, they don't hold Velsharoon in some kind of abstract reverence and Christian-like worship. They are an organization dedicated to a cause given relevance by the god aspect. Same with pretty much all the other gods. This is how we can have a godly spin on non-epic adventures. Some of them are literally their portfolios, Mystra doesn't represent magic, she IS magic, so the universe as we know it can't exist without them.

In PoE nothing of this is true, they think of their gods with a Christian mindset while the gods can't be further from that. They also aren't their portfolios, they are representations and guardians. It creates a rather silly juxtaposition imo, which makes me question their relevancy from our perspective. Do you think the Eothas hook for PoE2 is a good use of the gods? I don't.

 

[Fry]

I'm currently playing through PoE directly coming from a BG1 playthrough (decided on holding off on BG2 so I don't remember how infinitely superior it is to PoE) and I can't see shit compared to BG1. PoE at 5th level is more of a clusterfuck than the whole of BG1. BG2 had a lot of effects and high level spells, too, but you don't have a problem differentiating them or wonder wtf is going on with your party members. PoE just needs toning down, less child-like SFX, more clarity. We don't need MORE graphics and animations, we need LESS. Slow mode should be the default speed of combat, as well (with less sluggish animations, of course).

Your precious eyes are in luck. They're implementing pause screen opacity and a slider in PoE2.

 

[i.Razor]

Well in PoE it was some kind of interesting to realize that Gods are constructs. At leat some efforts were put into this.

 

[Infinitron]

In D&D the churches are basically organizations which represent their deities' portfolios, in D&D you don't worship the gods out of religious passion, the search for truth or moral guidance, you worship them because they align with your views/interests and can help you achieve stuff.

Is this really true? I always kind of figured that the reason we keep seeing the sorts of clerics who are in it to to "represent their deity's portfolio" in D&D stories is that the writers are leery of presenting real faith & worship. Not cool enough and possibly controversial. But it still seemed like it could be out there, among the simple folk.

 

[Mazisky]

So they kinda spoiled we'll have a boss fight vs Eothas i guess

I must've missed that. What did they say?

They asked Dimitri what kind of 3d model he was proud of, he answered "the Eyeless" for Pillars one, and then "Eothas" for pillars 2.

After saying "Eothas" the overall atmosphere and Josh behaviour were like he said something he shouldn't.

So basically this means he designed a pretty complex 3d in-game model of Eothas, i don't think he will be a npc so...enemy.

 

[Infinitron]

So they kinda spoiled we'll have a boss fight vs Eothas i guess

I must've missed that. What did they say?

They asked Dimitri what kind of 3d model he was proud of, he answered "the Eyeless" for Pillars one, and then "Eothas" for pillars 2.

After saying "Eothas" the overall atmosphere and Josh behaviour were like he said something he shouldn't.

So basically this means he designed a pretty complex 3d model of Eothas in-game, i don't think he will be a npc neither a companion, so...enemy.

I think he said Thaos, not Eothas. He was talking about PoE1 base game.

EDIT: Nope, you're right.

 

[Mazisky]

So they kinda spoiled we'll have a boss fight vs Eothas i guess

I must've missed that. What did they say?

They asked Dimitri what kind of 3d model he was proud of, he answered "the Eyeless" for Pillars one, and then "Eothas" for pillars 2.

After saying "Eothas" the overall atmosphere and Josh behaviour were like he said something he shouldn't.

So basically this means he designed a pretty complex 3d model of Eothas in-game, i don't think he will be a npc neither a companion, so...enemy.

I think he said Thaos. He was talking about PoE1 base game, not PoE2.

No man.

"Yeah, I thought about it, and I like some of the armors, but I honestly like the Eyeless the most. Pillars 2 would be...Eothas."

 

[Sentinel]

Well, it's not really a surprise that the guy that destroys your house and steals your soul is a possible enemy at some point in the game. That's like saying that Jon Irenicus being a boss fight in BG2 is a spoiler.

Anyway, Josh already confirmed that Eothas needn't be your enemy, and you can ally with him.

I hope David Warner voices Eothas though.

 

[Lacrymas]

Is this really true? I always kind of figured that the reason we keep seeing the sorts of clerics who are in it to to "represent their deity's portfolio" in D&D stories is that the writers are leery of presenting real faith & worship. Not cool enough and possibly controversial. But it still seemed like it could be out there, among the simple folk.

I'm extrapolating because that's all they've shown. I don't think they can show anything else and keep it believable, though, the way the gods are treated and written as representation/manifestation of the divine it precludes Christian-like faith and worship. And that's a good thing.

 

[Ulfhednar]

I thought they did a great job in showing the effect of religion in PoE... If you had dressed Eder and his brother in Blue and Gray and handed them rifles, that whole quest line could have been taken straight from the American Civil War, moral entanglements and all.

 

[AwesomeButton]

If we go by D&D's system where lvl 30+ is essentially Godhood

I don't think DnD is a good base for comparison with PoE with regard to what character levels correspond to what levels of competence in a given trade/walk of life. If you look into DnD's history you'll see how it's based off of a wargaming system and at times even refers to its ruleset (chainmail). It basically started as "Chainmail with fantasy creatures". So this 30th lvl ~ godhood is in the same line of thought as "at level 10 the warrior is allowed a retinue of 30 archers and 50 billmen, and has to own a castle, and at least 200 gold". This godhood thing is an extrapolation from this principle, made in the context of a fantasy world. I really doubt Sawyer will have borrowed from this arbitrarily set tradition for his own system, so the comparison is probably misleading. I doubt in Sawyer's vision godhood or near-godhood can ever correspond to a character level. It's a good question to ask Josh though.

D&D you don't worship the gods out of religious passion, the search for truth or moral guidance, you worship them because they align with your views/interests and can help you achieve stuff

So that's pretty much like in the late Roman empire - cults to deities had grown completely secular, and religious rituals had become formal acts,their original meanings completely forgotten, but required to be preformed by the secular authorities, at least in some cases I believe. I wouldn't be bothered if that's how attitudes towards religion were represented in a game, as long as this mode of thinking of the ingame people isn't obviously contradicted by their outlook on other aspects of the world. PoE features, or at least tries to feature a discussion on the nature of gods. The fact that the society is moved by such questions sets the base for other beliefs and a different rationale in their approach to matters both in their personal world and in the public world - politics, interstate relations. This I guess - the pursuit of certainty as to the nature of the gods - should tie in well with the "late medieval/early renaissance" feel of a society, which Obsidian are going for. That the game does not quite manage to show all those things, is a problem with the game however.

 

[fobia]

You think so Lacrymas? Just because nobody stripped the christian god of it's portfolio and dismissed jesus as an avatar irl?
I think Christian-like faith and worship would fit a pantheon like the one in the forgotten realms or Eora very well. Especially since christian worship integrated so many pagan rituals etc.
And let's not talk about the similarities between other religions and the christian bible.

Christianity used to be very :incloosive:
It's not such an unic representation of godhood.

Edit. I wrote the argument the other way around.
What I wanted to say is, that christianity could imho very well be represented in a setting like the Forgotten Realms.
I think therefore, that the representation of faith is just different because of the authors and because every other hero is an avatar or a chosen one.

 

[Lacrymas]

Oh, I don't doubt the St. Waidwen/Jesus allusion, I'm pretty sure that's what they were going for. That's not what we are talking about though, it's about the gods being thought of in a Christian mindset, while the theology and the essence of the gods aren't like Christianity, so it creates a weird juxtaposition which doesn't make much sense.

I really doubt Sawyer will have borrowed from this arbitrarily set

It's not arbitrary, though, it's the only way for the levels to make sense outside of mechanics. In D&D you can't become a 15th level druid until you become the archdruid of a grove, then that status is represented as level 15 for the mechanics, not the other way around. It also prevents level 20 rats.

This I guess - the pursuit of certainty as to the nature of the gods - should tie in well with the "late medieval/early renaissance" feel of a society, which Obsidian are going for.

The nature and certainty of the divine was never questioned in either medieval time or the Renaissance, they might've been rustled around a little bit, but not scrutinized, what changed between the two eras was humanity's place within that paradigm and the individual understanding and acceptance of God. The questioning of gods came later. None of this matters, though, theology in Eora is completely different.

 

[Fry]

If we go by D&D's system where lvl 30+ is essentially Godhood

I don't think DnD is a good base for comparison with PoE with regard to what character levels correspond to what levels of competence in a given trade/walk of life. If you look into DnD's history you'll see how it's based off of a wargaming system and at times even refers to its ruleset (chainmail). It basically started as "Chainmail with fantasy creatures". So this 30th lvl ~ godhood is in the same line of thought as "at level 10 the warrior is allowed a retinue of 30 archers and 50 billmen, and has to own a castle, and at least 200 gold". This godhood thing is an extrapolation from this principle, made in the context of a fantasy world. I really doubt Sawyer will have borrowed from this arbitrarily set tradition for his own system, so the comparison is probably misleading. I doubt in Sawyer's vision godhood or near-godhood can ever correspond to a character level. It's a good question to ask Josh though.

D&D you don't worship the gods out of religious passion, the search for truth or moral guidance, you worship them because they align with your views/interests and can help you achieve stuff

So that's pretty much like in the late Roman empire - cults to deities had grown completely secular, and religious rituals had become formal acts,their original meanings completely forgotten,.

I don't think that's an example of the original meaning being forgotten at all... that was the original meaning. Greco-Roman religion (and European pagan religions in general) were overtly transactional in a way which seems odd to modern Abrahamic religions. You prayed to a god because doing so brought you favor in this life. If praying to that god proved ineffective, you moved on.

 

[Quillon]

 

[Iznaliu]

i don't think he will be a npc

That is a bit of an arbitrary dismissal.

I doubt in Sawyer's vision godhood or near-godhood can ever correspond to a character level. It's a good question to ask Josh though.

I would say this doesn't mesh with the gods being a fixed, limited set of beings rather than a status, as in PoE, so it's highly unlikely that 'god' is a tier; it is more of a role.

 

[AwesomeButton]

The nature and certainty of the divine was never questioned in either medieval time or the Renaissance, they might've been rustled around a little bit, but not scrutinized, what changed between the two eras was humanity's place within that paradigm and the individual understanding and acceptance of God.

Sure. That's why I said "should tie in well", because it doesn't replicate directly. For me it falls under the explanation "it's fantasy, so it can be an exaggerated version of something from history".

Also, by "arbitrary" I meant that the main reason some rules exist in DnD was that some similar rules existed in Chainmail.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Sizzle]

 

[Lacrymas]

Just like in D&D, then. Not surprised.

 

[Sizzle]

Not sure how I feel about this change to the system.

It sounds like an idea that will result in the player not changing weapons often (as opposed to PoE1) - you've invested one of your level ups into gaining proficiency with a certain weapon, and you're going to make the most of it.

Also worrisome is that, apparently, certain class-specific talents, like the Wizard's Blast ability, will now be available to everyone in the form of weapon modals.

 

[Infinitron]

This isn't new information, Grunker asked about it long ago. I believe Josh's answer was, the lack of proficiency doesn't mean you're any worse at hitting with basic attacks, so not a disaster?

 

[Fry]

I don't do much weapon switching in PoE1 anyway. Especially after getting the soulbound gear.

 

[Sizzle]

This isn't new information, Grunker asked about it long ago. I believe Josh's answer was, the lack of proficiency doesn't mean you're any worse at hitting with basic attacks, so not a disaster?

Maybe. But some of these - like the Rapid Shot for Hunting Bows - sound like they're extremely useful, and like you'd be missing out if you used those weapons without the modal.

 

[Sentinel]

Well, I think that's a good thing.