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KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

agris

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Yeah I have one more - why are you excited for this game? I watched the pitch video, looked at the KS page and came away feeling like it was another watered-down IE-inspired game. Is it the source material that's getting everyone's jimmies in a knot? I think 3.5e is a shit system anyway, so I'm not the target audience, but that's why I asked for the opinion of a person who thought X and Y above.
 

ArchAngel

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Yeah I have one more - why are you excited for this game? I watched the pitch video, looked at the KS page and came away feeling like it was another watered-down IE-inspired game. Is it the source material that's getting everyone's jimmies in a knot? I think 3.5e is a shit system anyway, so I'm not the target audience, but that's why I asked for the opinion of a person who thought X and Y above.
Because it will play slower like IE games, and it will be first non indie D&D game since NWN2. It will be very close to PnP (which is better than D&D 3.5). Unlike NWN2 it will not have a shit engine and shit camera (it will have a fixed camera like IE games).
Also it will be using a Kingmaker adventure path that is probably best one that exists (for both Pathfinder and DnD). It will have a proper resting system that will limit resting anywhere anytime and force your to deal with problems like PnP does. It will be proper hardcore with spells abilities and everything very similar to PnP.
For me I love IE games and I played them a lot. Unlike PoE and DAO which were somewhat disappointing, I see this as the first true IE games like modern game.
 

Grunker

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Also it will be using a Kingmaker adventure path that is probably best one that exists (for both Pathfinder and DnD).

Do you actually play P&P? Because this isn't even remotely close to being true. It is one of the most ambitious though

The rest of what you say I pretty much agree with though, except I like DA:O and love PoE with White March. But I also fucking love 3.5 and especially Pathfinder agris, so YMMV.
 
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Prime Junta

Guest
Unlike PoE and DAO which were somewhat disappointing, I see this as the first true IE games like modern game.

Hoo boy, I can't wait for the butthurt when this is actually released. Will ArchAngel go full Sensuki, or only Lacrymas?
 

agris

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that's my read, i've been burned too much.

i still don't see why this is getting the hype it is from the site.
 

Grunker

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Because the IE-games are loved and Pathfinder is the best version of D&D to date (system, not fluff, obviously)? I mean you might not agree but that's why
 

agris

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Because the IE-games are loved and Pathfinder is the best version of D&D to date (system, not fluff, obviously)? I mean you might not agree but that's why
Yes but that's why I asked all the questions I did on the previous page- can this studio credibly claim felicity to the IE games and the Pathfinder TT system? Have they stated positions on mechanics and gameplay that are consistent with what you've said? IE-games and Pathfinder's version of 3.5E D&D.
 

Grunker

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Whether they can do what they claim is anyone's guess, but I had the same doubt as to the implementation of the system as you had, and they have since stated and re-stated that it will be as-complete-as-possible implementation of P&P rules.
 

agris

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Whether they can do what they claim is anyone's guess, but I had the same doubt as to the implementation of the system as you had, and they have since stated and re-stated that it will be as-complete-as-possible implementation of P&P rules.
Will you play devil's advocate for me then, and tell me your biggest concerns for the game based on what you know? Sorry for being demanding, tell me to F-off if you want; I'm not about to read 34 pages of comments and try to parse PR-speak for insights that I know this community generates daily.
 

Quantomas

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Maybe this helps to get an idea of the Kingmaker AP and how detailed it is:

ss_89ae5fa10bdaee72842e986d78bdf3103e8e543f.jpg

The hope is that this will be a PnP module conversion that can truly fly.
 

Grunker

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Will you play devil's advocate for me then, and tell me your biggest concerns for the game based on what you know?

- Developer with doubtful experience
- Massive feature creep
- Dubious implementation of what might be the most complex P&P system in existance in terms of amount of customization assets (GURPS and others are potentially more complex mechanically but 3.5 and Pathfinder just have so god damned many unique assets)
 
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ArchAngel

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Also it will be using a Kingmaker adventure path that is probably best one that exists (for both Pathfinder and DnD).

Do you actually play P&P? Because this isn't even remotely close to being true. It is one of the most ambitious though

The rest of what you say I pretty much agree with though, except I like DA:O and love PoE with White March. But I also fucking love 3.5 and especially Pathfinder agris, so YMMV.
I played part 1 of the adventure path. Also know a bit more about how complex it gets but don't know details. I know enough that I consider this best PnP module because the rest are usually very limiting in what players get to do and how.
 

ArchAngel

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Unlike PoE and DAO which were somewhat disappointing, I see this as the first true IE games like modern game.

Hoo boy, I can't wait for the butthurt when this is actually released. Will ArchAngel go full Sensuki, or only Lacrymas?
Sensuki was a very dedicated beta tester and that is why he broke apart later. I neither have time or willpower to do what he did. At worst I will be disappointed like I was with PoE. Even if they fuck up, I don't see this being as bad as NWN1 or NWN2.
 

DarkUnderlord

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Any plans for a fundraiser? This game requires a Codexian NPC.
Talk to DU. We'll need somebody to talk to them and negotiate though (and not me as I'm not at home this week)
We need a Russian, me thinks.
PM me.
Isn't Stainless Veteran also a vatnik? Maybe he could help us also.
Who dares to summon me? What's up?
Codex needs you to get down and dirty on some fags.. by talking to them.
mt4.jpg


Negotiations about Codex NPC you mean? Well, I can translate hivemind's demands, but you also have Hamster, DramaticPopcorn, and quite a few other people. People who can into both English and Russian, I mean. I won't participate in 'dex fundraiser anyway, so I'm not sure I'm the right person for negotiations.

Read: I'm a coward, lel.

Then we have one willing to help and two soon-to-be willing to help. Infinitron DarkUnderlord Come on, DarkUnderpants.
What's going on, what do I need to do?
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Russians.


It's either going to be extremely weird, Oleg Kulik killed and dismembered a pig on stage, some other guy I forgot the name of took an Orthodox icon and smashed it with an axe in the center of Moscow (also Pathologic and The Void, Evil Islands wasn't your standard RPG either), or incredibly bland, slightly incompetent and faintly smelling of xenophobia and village idiocy. Judging by the lone screenshot it's the second option. No idea why MCA is even mentioned here.
 

V_K

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some other guy I forgot the name of took an Orthodox icon and smashed it with an axe in the center of Moscow
Avdey Ter-Oganian.
Funniest thing is, the guy later became a subject of criminal investigation (for that very work, even though it was actually a copy of an icon), escaped to Prague (I think? don't remember exactly), and there became a staunch conservative doing relatively traditional paintings.
Though technically (ethnically) he's Armenian.
incredibly bland, slightly incompetent and faintly smelling of xenophobia and village idiocy
Also, every single one of those was a result an overambitious project, with press-releases promising everything and the kitchen sink, and then the game comes out and... whoops!
Though since they don't have a publisher (do they?) to make them release anything, it's probably going to end up another Grimoire.
 

PrettyDeadman

Guest
Russians.


It's either going to be extremely weird, Oleg Kulik killed and dismembered a pig on stage, some other guy I forgot the name of took an Orthodox icon and smashed it with an axe in the center of Moscow (also Pathologic and The Void, Evil Islands wasn't your standard RPG either), or incredibly bland, slightly incompetent and faintly smelling of xenophobia and village idiocy. Judging by the lone screenshot it's the second option. No idea why MCA is even mentioned here.

What's wierd about actionism? It's not like it's some brand new art movement or something that exclusively exists in Russia (or even was invented in Russia).
Learn about art history before making racist assumptions or you will look like a village idiot!
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
What's wierd about actionism? It's not like it's some brand new art movement or something that exclusively exists in Russia (or even was invented in Russia).
Learn about art history before making racist assumptions or you will look like a village idiot!

Actionism IS kinda weird though, killing and dismembering a pig on a stage also is, which WAS "new" (in the 80s) , and maybe even justified depending on how you look at it, actionists used their own bodies for their performances, not others'. You might notice that I'm not condemning the weirdness, just stating it, even hoping for it. Is that racism? Is Russian a "race"? I'm leaning towards no. And trust me, I know my art history :p
 
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Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Back home, and just in time for the new update: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-kingmaker/posts/1922832

Pathfinder builds character: A look at our Character Sheet

Dear Pathfinders,

Creating and developing your character is one of the pillars of any RPG, be it a computer game or pen-and-paper gaming. Most beginners find this process very complicated. A lot of them make their first characters with the help of experienced friends learning the rules, tricks, and nuances on the way. The Pathfinder Role Playing Game provides a deep, rich and complex system for character generation, which allows creating characters, which are interesting to play with, follow archetypes players want and feel useful not only in battle but also in exploration or social interactions. These characters could be quite simple, consisting of just one class, skills, and feats selected from recommended lists and some class features; or characters could be a complex build from several classes, each of them modified with archetypes, complete with carefully picked skills, traits, feats, and spells from myriad of rulebooks and equipment that complements the character's strengths.

We really like the depth of this system, and we use it to create those complex and nuanced characters that together are capable of overcoming any challenge in the pen-and-paper adventures we play. And it is one of our most important goals to provide that same freedom and depth to the players in Pathfinder: Kingmaker. For that we need to make the description of the character as clear as possible, providing information for the elements that are already present as well as for those that will be available for the character later. And that makes creating our UI a great challenge. Our UI designers started studying various charsheets, which elements of the development they show and in which way, as well as how those elements are grouped. Next came applications that help with character generation as they are solving the same task we had ahead of us, but covering more choices and providing enough information to simplify the entire process and greatly reduce the amount of time required to create a character.

We tried to combine all of the information on one screen, but it always became a cluttered mess of icons, numbers, and lines of text. There is just too much information to fit on one screen, even if somehow we managed to achieve that, the result would be rather intimidating for... well, essentially everybody, as even dedicated players would have to spend a lot of time finding the elements they are looking for. We decided to separate all of the information into several tabs, each dedicated to one specific facet of the character. We tried various iterations on how to divide the information and how to present it on each tab as you can see on the picture below. Just for the first tab our UI team created 16 different versions until we came to the result we really liked. You can see all of them in the picture below. A bit of warning: those are all concept screens. The numbers on them are not representative of anything and used just to showcase the interface elements:

8a84206562ba8190dfb093a76bb11bc4_original.gif



Let's start our tour with the first tab, one that contains general information about the character. The Central part of this screen shows alignment (and we follow the alignment system from the Core Rulebook, as you can see). All the decisions that changed the main character's alignment lead to the line appearing in the circle, showing consequences and shifts in alignment. A log below the circle provides additional information and reminds you of the decisions you've made on your journey. Computer RPGs are all about decisions, it is a pillar for this genre, and it deserves representation at the center of the screen of your character.

5f195f9f221507bd3ed0e93ecba1bfc5_original.png



63ccca95ee17513c21f278dbe697e44d_original.png



Our companions are far less flexible in their alignment, they follow it, and only rare events can force them to evaluate (and probably change) their views. Because of that, we felt that it will be inappropriate to use the same amount of space to depict alignment for them. Their central block is all about their personal quest, the journey they have in the Stolen Lands. You can see important events and decisions they made as well as their next goal.

dd5a0d54775cf56f61dbb0caae3d4204_original.png


The second screen is all about abilities of the character, class features as well as feats - basically an encyclopedia of the character's capabilities. Take note of the left-most block of information; it does not change between most of the tabs and contains information that is frequently needed or relevant to other tabs (like Stats, Experience or Level). This is also a concept screen for the Abilities tab and does not represent build of any character or abilities and feats that are existing in the game.

c2aa3a153a2d564aa4eae4d0ef6f114f_original.png



The third screen provides information on the martial prowess of the character, to hit rolls, different kinds of AC, damage from attacks... As you can see, there is no magic counterpart of this screen, and that is on purpose. We discussed this a lot and decided that it will be more convenient to see that information on the special tab on the screen dedicated to selecting spells and meta-magic. So there is a dedicated tab in the spellbook (or book of prayers for divine casters) devoted to the stats and values important for magic-users.

0ec5140a02709d670ddaaf0f9372865f_original.png



The fourth screen is the most difficult one to develop, as we want to showcase all of the possibilities for character development, those that were already selected as well as those that are far in the future. We want the player to be able to plan the character in detail. In fact, we are hoping to introduce a feature, that will allow leveling up a character with a single-click, if all of the abilities were selected in advance. We spent a lot of time putting all of the information on just one screen and organizing it in such way that does not make your head explode just from looking at it.

0f7ca7cb54923abe6f62ab3776a6de9a_original.gif



So we came to this screen as a result of that search. It is simple enough if a character has just one class while still showing elements of the development both in the past and in the future. In case of multiclassing (especially if there are 3 or more classes), the screen becomes more complicated, but still convenient, as it shows most of the directions in which such a character could be developed. Please note that what you see below is a concept of the screen, not a screenshot from the game and can have some inconsistencies.

1c15fa4337dab555ad47a199ae3d42cb_original.png



The last screen is devoid of game mechanical information; it is all about the story of the character: biography, alignment, personal quest and of course full body portrait.

47168cd93b4a8e5e209fcb5f76406adb_original.png



9026e67fad53736ee13f187097e3618d_original.png



This concludes our tour of the tabs on the character screen. We have to mention that all of those screens are not final and their looks can change after we make several more rounds of UX- and playtesting. What did you think of today's update? Got any feedback or questions for us? Let us know in the comments section, and we'll get back to you in no time!

6acf901b4f2da3cadb7c919820336e78_original.png

* All specific names are used only as reference to original Pathfinder Roleplaying Game (R) entities and could be subject to change in the Pathfinder:Kingmaker CRPG.

Hail to the Kings!

Owlcats.
 

Quantomas

Savant
Joined
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Messages
260
Will you play devil's advocate for me then, and tell me your biggest concerns for the game based on what you know?
- Developer with doubtful experience
While Owlcat as a studio is new, the developers have plenty of experience, particularly the leads have 15+ years of professional experience each.

Will you play devil's advocate for me then, and tell me your biggest concerns for the game based on what you know?
- Massive feature creep
- Dubious implementation of what might be the most complex P&P system in existance in terms of amount of customization assets (GURPS and others are potentially more complex mechanically but 3.5 and Pathfinder just have so god damned many unique assets)
I have seen the code that a team under the leads has produced. It's solid and competent. They clearly know their C++ and managed to build all the complex systems required for an AAA game and get it to work with a sound understanding of the development process. This includes dedicated systems for debugging and QA. It's not to say that it is without flaws, for example in the AI department (though most studios have difficulties here), and in hindsight some architecture and design decisions proved not optimal. But that's common for most video game projects. All in all I'd say they are a tier above Obsidian.

They are sufficiently staffed. From the AMA:
4 programmers/6 artists and animators (and 20+ on outsource)/15 designers (system, UI, level, narrative)
The leads worked about five years on a game that has a massive number of feats, skills, combat and spell elements. While that was a strategy game, Heroes V + two expansions, which is not a RPG and Pathfinder likely will have the upper hand in terms of complexity, the systems required for implementing a massive amount of features, balancing and debugging are comparable. From what I have witnessed, they systematically build the tools and systems they need to arrive at a goal.

The biggest risk I would see is whether they will manage to build a game in which the story is on par with the systems. It can easily get cheesy, superficial, underwhelming, or like in PoE's case feel too much like an exercise. But considering what MCA said in the AMA and on the Codex, particularly relating to the authors from Paizo and Owlcat, I am not pessimistic. Knowing a bit about the leads of Owlcat, I can imagine that they respect MCA and it may turn out that he will lead by competence even if he doesn't wear the hat of the narrative design lead.

Regarding the Codexian to negotiate with Owlcat, I'd recommend to choose someone who can visit their offices in Moscow and report many new and shiny things for us.
 
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Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I think people are reading too much into the word "negotiate". It really just means "somebody who gives enough of a fuck to hash something out with these guys over emails and can be trusted keep track of it going forward". Used to be Angthoron's designated job on staff before he left the forum. It's not something we're going to assign to some random Russian person on the forums just because he's Russian (no offense)

Quantomas You seem to have joined this forum to talk about Kingmaker. Care to tell us more about your background?
 

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