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Jeff Vogel vs Pillars of Eternity

Sizzle

Arcane
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Now contrast this with the Spirit Curse from MoTB - you gain the power to devour gods!

You could frame the Watcher in the same way: "You gain the power to read souls!"

Yes, but the question here is: which one is used better?

In MoTB, you use those powers all the time - and not just in combat, but as an important part of gameplay.

In PoE, your powers (before TWM) come in handy only a couple of times. It showed promise, but they didn't integrate it as well as they could and should have.

Take Maerwald. All those visions you had of his past lives. You would think that would be an important part of solving that quest - maybe using the knowledge you gained that way to navigate his shattered psyche and extract the info you needed. Or maybe even heal him. But no, it was just a badly presented foreshadowing of what could happen to the PC in a couple of decades if he remains being a Watcher.
 

Azarkon

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Yeah, the difference basically lies in the execution. In theory, the power to read souls - think: memories - is as cool of a mechanic as the need to eat spirits. But reading souls in Pillars of Eternity was literally implemented through READING EVEN MORE WALLS OF TEXT. Such a design, in a game where lore dumps are already common, is more irritating than anything else. By contrast, eating spirits in MoTB opened up new gameplay mechanics, as well as new choices and consequences, which nobody can complain about.

The other Pillars of Eternity player character ability - being able to remember past lives - was just not explored much at all, and was only used for certain story moments.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
The spirit eater thing was also used in crafting very well. You could eat all your companions and create a ridiculously powerful amulet for example, or each soul could be used to make other specific items. It wasn't just a narrative thing is what the important part is, unlike in PoE where it was not used well even for story purposes.
 

sser

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Lore dumps are atrocious and almost always the wrong route to go when writing anything. It's one reason I've never cared for fantasy fiction, because it's so inundated with stuff anyone could make up and put on paper. I know others enjoy it, obviously, but to me it's like watching a sport when I don't know the rules. And it's, like, a really boring sport. With old men. And mallets.
 
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The spirit eater thing was also used in crafting very well. You could eat all your companions and create a ridiculously powerful amulet for example, or each soul could be used to make other specific items. It wasn't just a narrative thing is what the important part is, unlike in PoE where it was not used well even for story purposes.

You could craft some nifty things if u managed to eat the unique enemies in various quests. That savage monkey who teaches devour soul; the hags in gann's companion quest for example. If you go full evil and eat everyone and craft; you end up with super OP gear and thats fantastic. If all the divinities of all the planes are gonna hunt you for your "sin" of embracing Akachi's Curse and enslaving Myrkul, all that OP gear is well deserved.

Also in the quests, you could do so much more with the spirit eater abilities.
If PC ate Myrkul, he got the chance to eat the red wizard bitch who started the whole mess. If PC eternal rested myrkul instead, you get the dialouge of how the hunger in you resists eating Betrayer's lover.

I was interested and motivated in Akachi's story even after my third playthrough. A good portion of this is attributed to how the gameplay ties in with the lore and back story. MoTB is a truly :obviously: game.

BG2 with its mage duels and spells like time-stop contingency sequencers is so much fun to play. You could even cast Infravision on fearsome monsters like beholders to make them impotent; which supports the lore as beholders are colour-blind in the red spectrum.

P:E has such unimaginative gameplay and story telling considering the premise of the PC is a being who can excavate memories of himself/others. The only mildly interesting gameplay in P:E is the cypher and chanter class mechanics.
 
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Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
BG2 with its mage duels and spells like time-stop contingency sequencers is so much fun to play. You could even cast Infravision on fearsome monsters like beholders to make them impotent; which supports the lore as beholders are colour-blind in the red spectrum.

Really cool. Is that a vanilla functionality though?
 

Sizzle

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P:E has such unimaginative gameplay and story telling considering the premise of the PC is a being who can excavate memories of himself/others.

Also, a big problem here was that many PoE's designers didn't understand the difference between a Cipher and a Watcher. There's even a quest in the game where they confuse the two. A Cipher can manipulate thoughts and memories. A Watcher can perceive, interact and manipulate souls.

It wasn't until TWM that they realized they could do so much more with that concept. Durgan's Battery could only be opened by a Watcher, because only a Watcher has the necessarry skills to do that. And that's great, that's the sort of gameplay they should have made a priority in the base game as well.

But in the base game, even in most quests where we do see souls, nothing much comes of it. For example, you get to learn how those tormented souls died, but that knowledge makes no difference to the outcome of the quest - it just provided some further story fluff.

Of course, not every quest should be about the Watcher, but a large enought number of them should have been solvable only because of your special powers. That would have reinforced the idea that the PC is an important and involved person in that world, and made the game feel much more interesting and fun.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
You could even cast Infravision on fearsome monsters like beholders to make them impotent; which supports the lore as beholders are colour-blind in the red spectrum.
You could really do that? I never though about this, but it sounds so cool.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
A Cipher can manipulate thoughts and memories. A Watcher can perceive, interact and manipulate souls

That's not true either, at least not from in-game information (base game, haven't played TWM yet), I don't remember what Josh and Carrie (sp?) said during the interview where that question was asked. Iirc there was no meaningful difference even if we were fishing for one, the only ability ciphers didn't have is to see dead people's souls, only manipulate the living. That's another victim of the non-existing editing pass. I guess PoE2 will give us something more concrete.
 

Sizzle

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Iirc there was no meaningful difference even if we were fishing for one, the only ability ciphers didn't have is to see dead people's souls, only manipulate the living.

Ciphers can't make people Awaken - it's obvious Watchers possess much greater soul manipulation powers than Ciphers, which are more like regular Psykers.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Ciphers can't make people Awaken - it's obvious Watchers possess much greater soul manipulation powers than Ciphers, which are more like regular Psykers.

Was that used in the base game at all? I mean forcing people to "Awaken". Calling it now - one of the endings to PoE2 will be forcing the conglomerate of souls within Eothas to "Awaken".
 

Quillon

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My understanding; ciphers can fuck with the souls inside a living being to a limited capacity compared to a watcher who can fuck with any soul, even destroy em.

What are the things a cipher can and a watcher can't do?
 

Sizzle

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Ciphers can't make people Awaken - it's obvious Watchers possess much greater soul manipulation powers than Ciphers, which are more like regular Psykers.

Was that used in the base game at all? I mean forcing people to "Awaken".

The only time I remember something remotely similar was in Icantha's dialogue, where you could quench her pride. But that felt very out of place and wasn't used again.

But yeah, the base game did a poor job of explaining what makes Watchers so special and different from Ciphers.
 

Sizzle

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There's even a quest in the game where they confuse the two.

There is also Eder's quest; that only a cipher can interact with the ornament, was that also a confusion?

Never played that quest without Grieving Mother (there's also the option to take it to the Cipher in Dunryd Row) who can analyze it, but she needs the Watcher's powers to boost her own.
 

Lhynn

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Ciphers can't make people Awaken - it's obvious Watchers possess much greater soul manipulation powers than Ciphers, which are more like regular Psykers.
This is not true tho, almost all cipher skills were far more powerful than what you could accomplish with your meager watcher powers.
 

Sizzle

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Ciphers can't make people Awaken - it's obvious Watchers possess much greater soul manipulation powers than Ciphers, which are more like regular Psykers.
This is not true tho, almost all cipher skills were far more powerful than what you could accomplish with your meager watcher powers.

Yes, Watcher combat abilities sucked, I've already acknowledged this. But we're not talking combat here, but things you could do in dialogue/scripted interactions.
 

Lhynn

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Yes, Watcher combat abilities sucked, I've already acknowledged this. But we're not talking combat here, but things you could do in dialogue/scripted interactions.
Who cares about those? they had very little impact in the game. If the game cant convey the abilities during gameplay, then those abilities are kind of pointless.

In BG1 you had low level spells that were useful all the way through the game, in BG2 you had an impressive transformation that allowed you to get to secret areas (and fight more effectively if you werent already a killing machine), but had a cost.
In PoE you got more garbage to read and nothing else.
 

Sizzle

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In BG1 you had low level spells that were useful all the way through the game

Useful at first (and not all of them - "Slow Poison"), but not really throughout the entire game. I'd certainly rate them higher than PoE's, but not by much.

in BG2 you had an impressive transformation that allowed you to get to secret areas

What secret areas?

but had a cost.

The cost was so easily offset one has to wonder why they even bothered with it.

In PoE you got more garbage to read and nothing else.

You being a Watcher in PoE provided you with more quest solutions (especially in TWM) than you being a Bhaalspawn in the BG series did.
 

Lhynn

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Useful at first (and not all of them - "Slow Poison"), but not really throughout the entire game. I'd certainly rate them higher than PoE's, but not by much.
Uh? healing skill was great at level 1, vampiric touch was also great. slow poison was important, it didnt come up often but when it did you really needed it. Most of the spells were a good use of your time.

What secret areas?
Exagerated, it was used a couple times to open areas like the illithid lair.

The cost was so easily offset one has to wonder why they even bothered with it.
It was a nice touch.

You being a Watcher in PoE provided you with more quest solutions (especially in TWM) than you being a Bhaalspawn in the BG series did.

Sure, who cares tho? BG2 did it better by virtue of making it interesting. It all comes down to execution.
 

vortex

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I remember there was a rogue stone in BG2 which activated the dimension portal to lich battle. But I can't remember where it was. I was long since I've played BG2.
I would like Deadfire will have some similar interesting interactions.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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Pathfinder: Wrath
Useful at first (and not all of them - "Slow Poison"), but not really throughout the entire game. I'd certainly rate them higher than PoE's, but not by much.

They were useful, with the good rep/alignment ones being more useful, unfortunately. Slow poison actually removed poison and it was amazing in Cloakwood, useful throughout the game as well, with only the most potent of poisons being unable to be removed by it. Cure wounds was instant cast, so it was useful in a pinch; Draw Upon Holy Might is a very powerful buff. The evil powers are less useful, but can be used tactically - Larloch's Minor Drain can be used to interrupt spells, Horror is horror and Vampiric touch is infinitely less amazing than DUHM, but it heals as much as Cure Serious Wounds (up to 6d6 if I remember correctly actually). I still don't know how it's selected which ones you get, whether they are based on rep or alignment.
 
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