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What are mmos with non shit character development?

Norfleet

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4) This does not happen in the games I talk about because you have the option to completely revamp your setup. Your build may revolve around one ability, and if that ability changes you just change your build. Most intelligent players don't have one build in mind, they see lots of holes they want to exploit and try them out over time. A nerf is just a new opportunity to try something new if it even matters, which most nerfs don't in good games. They only matter in shit games for shitheads that hate thinking and just copy what their betters do.
Ah, but that's the thing, isn't it: If you can just revamp your setup, and then you haven't really made a choice, and so we're back to a set of powers you got somewhere, and then you choose some of them to equip. Is that really character development?
 

YES!

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4) This does not happen in the games I talk about because you have the option to completely revamp your setup. Your build may revolve around one ability, and if that ability changes you just change your build. Most intelligent players don't have one build in mind, they see lots of holes they want to exploit and try them out over time. A nerf is just a new opportunity to try something new if it even matters, which most nerfs don't in good games. They only matter in shit games for shitheads that hate thinking and just copy what their betters do.
Ah, but that's the thing, isn't it: If you can just revamp your setup, and then you haven't really made a choice, and so we're back to a set of powers you got somewhere, and then you choose some of them to equip. Is that really character development?

It depends. Rift is very formulaic and your point applies a lot here. Your point doesn't for games such as DDO, AO, Champions Online, etc. Why? Because not all choices are equal. Anyone who loves character building is going to have specific builds they want to try. If one doesn't work you move on, if one works awesome you protect your secret and share with no one. If there is a nerf you try and adapt or go to the next completely different build requiring a whole new playstyle and thinking and functionality.

Your argument is based on opinion so can't be wrong, but rpgs have systems with great and fun and choice heavy and significant character development options, and ones with jack shit for character development options. This is true for p&p, crpgs, and mmorpgs. hell, maybe some super secret Asian rpgs have good character development too. I don't know. But I do know, it is not very reasonable to claim that all character development options amount to nothing because all choices amount to nothing. Without choices and decisions and opportunity costs there is no rpg, and we are all pretending.

So, without getting to philosophical, I mostly disagree while admitting there certainly are some character development in certain games that have choices that do mainly amount to nothing and are more superficial than made to seem.
 

Norfleet

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It depends. Rift is very formulaic and your point applies a lot here. Your point doesn't for games such as DDO, AO, Champions Online, etc. Why? Because not all choices are equal. Anyone who loves character building is going to have specific builds they want to try. If one doesn't work you move on, if one works awesome you protect your secret and share with no one. If there is a nerf you try and adapt or go to the next completely different build requiring a whole new playstyle and thinking and functionality.
This, of course, implies that you CAN go on to a different build without any significant cost, that your character build choices are essentially impermanent and therefore you haven't really made any choices. Otherwise, your character build is rendered worthless along with all the work you've put into your character.

But I do know, it is not very reasonable to claim that all character development options amount to nothing because all choices amount to nothing.
I disagree. If all the character choices end up the same because either you have chosen poorly and your character is worthless, or you have chosen correctly, but then they nerf it and so your character is worthless, the end result is the same and your choices amount to nothing. Since only the end result matters, if two courses of action lead to the same result, the only winning move is not to play.

As such, no MMO has a good character development system, except perhaps for those abandoned by their developers. The closest we can get are either low-impact choices which provide only limited customizations at best, or non-choices in which you haven't really chosen anything.
 

Helton

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Norfleet you sound pretty bitter and I think your opinion is divorced from recent experience. Yes nerfs suck and if you've put a lot of time into a character it sucks doubly. But that doesn't render character development moot. The process is fun and, unless nerfs are happening at a lightning pace, you still get to experience the results of your build choices. As a stellar counter-example, Path of Exile has seasons. Most balance changes happen in between seasons. Making a build and running it for a season (or even a fraction of a season) is fun, exciting, your choices have significant impact on the performance of your character. Its temporary, of course. Most people have no intention of sticking with that character forever, or even at all once the season ends. But the fact that it is temporary does not preclude it being "good".
 

YES!

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It depends. Rift is very formulaic and your point applies a lot here. Your point doesn't for games such as DDO, AO, Champions Online, etc. Why? Because not all choices are equal. Anyone who loves character building is going to have specific builds they want to try. If one doesn't work you move on, if one works awesome you protect your secret and share with no one. If there is a nerf you try and adapt or go to the next completely different build requiring a whole new playstyle and thinking and functionality.
This, of course, implies that you CAN go on to a different build without any significant cost, that your character build choices are essentially impermanent and therefore you haven't really made any choices. Otherwise, your character build is rendered worthless along with all the work you've put into your character.

But I do know, it is not very reasonable to claim that all character development options amount to nothing because all choices amount to nothing.
I disagree. If all the character choices end up the same because either you have chosen poorly and your character is worthless, or you have chosen correctly, but then they nerf it and so your character is worthless, the end result is the same and your choices amount to nothing. Since only the end result matters, if two courses of action lead to the same result, the only winning move is not to play.

As such, no MMO has a good character development system, except perhaps for those abandoned by their developers. The closest we can get are either low-impact choices which provide only limited customizations at best, or non-choices in which you haven't really chosen anything.

First, let me say how much I appreciate this. It is very rare to be able to argue with someone who can comprehend and competently and intelligently reply to points. I love this. We used to do this all the time on these forums.

First, I'd like clarification on if you are saying this is mmorpg exclusive issue or applies to all rpgs of all mediums? Look to PoE as a recent example of a game with major class changes in the SP market. Or 3 to 3.5 D&D for p&p.

Helton made a good case on why impermanent does not lessen the importance of character building. But to add to it I'd like to state that even the most p2w games have hard or soft resets of provide a "reset" token when major changes to a build or class happen. I actually much more prefer systems that have a significant cost than systems will no cost or little cost as it makes testing harder and challenges me to understand the system more.

As to you second point - the opposite of choosing poorly is choosing well, not correctly. And although people claim the "best" choices are objective and not subjective this is rarely true. Choices can mathematically be objectively the best, but this doesn't factor in time on target and arena or pvp or mistakes or grouping with people who aren't all that good, etc. The best choices are subjective to the user and their strengths/abilities (as well as what the build is for such as the various kinds of pvm, pvp, etc). In the arena I get tunnel vision so I would have to account for that in my and my BIL's builds. When Wildstar came out I was able to find a build that allowed me to be a total badass in the arena. I was paid a lot of in game money to carry people in the arena to fluff their score. My arch nemesis was begging me for my build. I'm not his arch nemesis as he kills me 100% of the time, but I sort of almost killed him. His build was shit. He can outplay the shit out of me seemingly without effort but he isn't good at systems like I am. New games filled with holes are what system people live for. To find and exploit the flaws in systems. To understand the systems well enough to make us better than others and do truly impressive feats. This is why we love this genre. This is the appeal to us. For my arch-nemesis and other freaks like him that can just outplay the shit out of a game it is probably the same but skill related and not system related. Or not non play systems. He knows exactly when to stun, exactly how far to move away when I am doing a big hit, exactly how and when to shut you down. Fucking freaks. I just want to kill him once. Just once. Fucking dick head piece of shit.

Lastly, if we take your beliefs to their natural conclusion there would be no classes or different builds. Every character would be exactly the same. And since your argument works even better with gear, there can be no item differences either, so no itemization. Now we have a regular game instead of an rpg. And funny enough, my brother in law I used to do the WoW arena with who quit wow after the last expansion - he now plays non-rpgs. He tries to get me to play his games with him but I have zero interest. He plays both H1Z1 and Unknown Player something or other.

The games you seem to be advocating for are already out there in abundance. We just want to know the ones made for people like us who enjoy the rpg aspect of rpgs.
 

Norfleet

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Norfleet you sound pretty bitter and I think your opinion is divorced from recent experience.
No, I'm pretty sure this is very much a recent experience. This was, what, like a month ago?

As a stellar counter-example, Path of Exile has seasons. Most balance changes happen in between seasons. Making a build and running it for a season (or even a fraction of a season) is fun, exciting, your choices have significant impact on the performance of your character. Its temporary, of course. Most people have no intention of sticking with that character forever, or even at all once the season ends. But the fact that it is temporary does not preclude it being "good".
Funny, that "temporaryness" is precisely why I decided not to play. Because I simply don't LIKE temporary things. Why bother liking them, when I can just ignore them until they go away for far less effort?

As to you second point - the opposite of choosing poorly is choosing well, not correctly.
This is the same thing. You choose poorly, you turn into a skeleton and crumble into dust. Everyone knows that.

And although people claim the "best" choices are objective and not subjective this is rarely true. Choices can mathematically be objectively the best, but this doesn't factor in time on target and arena or pvp or mistakes or grouping with people who aren't all that good, etc.
We have equations for that, too.

The best choices are subjective to the user and their strengths/abilities (as well as what the build is for such as the various kinds of pvm, pvp, etc). In the arena I get tunnel vision so I would have to account for that in my and my BIL's builds.
There also equations and solutions for that as well.

Obviously you're not going to arrive at a correct answer if you fail to include all the factors.

Lastly, if we take your beliefs to their natural conclusion there would be no classes or different builds. Every character would be exactly the same. And since your argument works even better with gear, there can be no item differences either, so no itemization. Now we have a regular game instead of an rpg. And funny enough, my brother in law I used to do the WoW arena with who quit wow after the last expansion - he now plays non-rpgs. He tries to get me to play his games with him but I have zero interest. He plays both H1Z1 and Unknown Player something or other.
Well, that's precisely what happens in a single-role game in which there there are no consequences, yes. Obviously this is not what would happen even in non-RPGs.

Even in a wargame, we have destroyers, submarines, cruisers, battleships, and carriers. Each plays a specific role (Does that make them RPGs, then?). Each is built differently. Each is useful, and each can be optimized to the role that you wish them to play.

The games you seem to be advocating for are already out there in abundance. We just want to know the ones made for people like us who enjoy the rpg aspect of rpgs.
Well, the thing is, the RPG-style is not well served by the MMO aspect, where RPG character building is about impactful choices and MMOs are about constant invalidation of those choices. The two are fundamentally at odds with each other. At one point, something has to give: Either the choices cease to be impactful, or there cease to be choices.
 
Last edited:

Lhynn

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The secret world as tier 1 comes to mind, and so does guild wars 1, well see how the secret world legends does.
 
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Too bad it is Eberron <shudder>

LOTRO's skill trees are not as shitty as people make them out to be. There is a "somewhat" open element to them when first building your spec. It is at that point you can borrow from other trees. In other words I can have a Hunter who traits Blue with a touch of Red, or a Champ who traits Yellow with a touch of Red.

I agree, but the options are very limited, and it locks you out of the non-primary color's gained abilities besides counting twice as much per point. It is more flavor than a system of any significance. There is one main choice - which tree to pick. I would relate it to the skill trees of wow in Cataclysm. You had one real choice, and then everything after that was obvious or flavor. WotLK, BC, and vanilla wow trees would have been a solid tier 2.

LotRO could be Tier 2 if they ever open up the trees to free form and and free selection of the same cost. Will it make it harder to balance? Certainly, but also would give it meaning and purpose and open up true hybrid builds like wow WotLK and prior.

Good points made, and I do agree, wholeheartedly -- LotRO's skill trees are definitely not a true hybrid system by any means. I could only wish for that. (as if it would ever happen)

I'm not sure who Tom Baker is, but I am glad his ass and myself can agree on this.

https://www.tombakerofficial.com/ (best known for being the 4th Doctor in Doctor Who)

Doctor Who was ruined for me as a kid. We had one TV and on the weekends when we were allowed in my father watched this shitty weird talking show with multi-colored blobs of awful special effects, and talking, and more talking, and then even more. Then he watched Benny Hill after which showed real boobs and was silly enough to be funny to my child mind even though I had no idea what was going on. Then was a cop show I can remember the music too but not the name - one guy was called Fish. Then he watched Welcome Back Carter after that. Or Sanford and Son. I forget which was last. Then he would be pretty drunk by then and go to bingo with my mom or out to a bar. The only positive memories I have of these TV watching shows with my old man is Benny Hill and real boobs on TV. Props to England for putting real boobs on TV. It was and still is a great idea. Real boobs make everything better.

I love Sci-Fi and would probably really enjoy Doctor Who now, but my butthurt from childhood still rankles. Also, it was confusing to my child mind to see a white guy with an afro.

Tom Baker is generally considered the greatest of the 12 (so far) Doctors to have played the role in the series. I am sorry that you had some pretty shitty memories from childhood, but you can get episode storylines on DVD, they really are a treat :

https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-U...F8&qid=1497879938&sr=1-37&keywords=doctor+who Patrick Troughton (the 2nd Doctor)
https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-E...F8&qid=1497879938&sr=1-41&keywords=doctor+who a great one of Tom Baker (the 4th Doctor)
https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-S...F8&qid=1497879938&sr=1-48&keywords=doctor+who Jon Pertwee (the 3rd Doctor, starring with his nemesis The Master)
https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-S...F8&qid=1497880135&sr=1-54&keywords=doctor+who Key of Time is most likely the finest of Baker
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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The secret world as tier 1 comes to mind, and so does guild wars 1, well see how the secret world legends does.
The issue with the secret world is there are no builds. Everyone has access to everything, just like most skill systems. The only choice is what function to pick at the moment. I don't see how this is different than ryzom or runescape.

As for GW1 - I din't play it all that much but there was very limited pve and you had instant cap and open skill selection for pvp. I also didn't think it was a good system personally. It wasn't impactful or significant if you have any class maxed and zero cost to select all abilities. CoX would be a solid tier 2 if it was still around though.
Well, the thing is, the RPG-style is not well served by the MMO aspect, where RPG character building is about impactful choices and MMOs are about constant invalidation of those choices. The two are fundamentally at odds with each other. At one point, something has to give: Either the choices cease to be impactful, or there cease to be choices.

I strongly disagree as there are lots of examples of this not being true. And it only becomes true when a game removes choices. Wow vanilla, BC, and WotLK prove this false, as do all the games listed in the OP. It is funny that when wow started to remove choices in order to get the system to work they kept removing choices and removing choices until there literally was only one choice with any impact (what spec to pick) and they still have major nerfs that ruin specs.

Can you answer if you have any experience with the games I listed in the OP and have you ever created a true hybrid build made to function well at many roles in many situations?

Your idea of theorycrafting is completely false and does not account for most situations and people's individual strengths and weaknesses. It gives a build for a spec and says play this way, and people get addons telling them when to hit a button. In BC and WotLK both every time I got in an argument with these people who think they know what they are talking about I would come up with a higher dps build for myself and out dps them most of the time and the rest of the time perform way above what they state I would.

Now theorycraft is meaningless for games with no choices like wow and the new FF game as it only matters when there are choices, opportunity costs, etc. It is simple to mathematically decide what spec does the best damage at what gear level when there are no moving parts. The more moving parts the more impossible it becomes. The more impossible it becomes the better the game for me and people like me.

And if rpgs do not lend themselves to mmos then why are there so many mmorpgs that are actual rpgs? And why are so many currently being developed?

And stating wargaming has roles like mmos should is a false argument. In the games my BIL plays he plays with a group and different people perform different roles such as scout, sniper, guy that runs in, distraction, etc.

Everything is perfectly balanced besides the skill of the player. I hate balance. Balance ruins everything and leads to no choices and no meaningful systems. Wargames tend to have a rock-paper-scissor approach I dislike unless they have options for my to manipulate functionality heavily. At one point games like Planetside were not considered rpgs (correctly), but are they wargames since they have the r-p-s approach to units?

Anything can be twisted or hamfisted into a category or to make a point, but at the end of the day there is a significant difference in the goal of an rpg, the goal of a wargame, the goal of a battle royal game (or whatever the PUnknown Player and H1Z1 games are called), and other games. In my opinion the goal of rpgs on all mediums should be exactly the same playing to the strengths and trying to move the constraints of the particular medium used for the rpg.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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Messages
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Too bad it is Eberron <shudder>

LOTRO's skill trees are not as shitty as people make them out to be. There is a "somewhat" open element to them when first building your spec. It is at that point you can borrow from other trees. In other words I can have a Hunter who traits Blue with a touch of Red, or a Champ who traits Yellow with a touch of Red.

I agree, but the options are very limited, and it locks you out of the non-primary color's gained abilities besides counting twice as much per point. It is more flavor than a system of any significance. There is one main choice - which tree to pick. I would relate it to the skill trees of wow in Cataclysm. You had one real choice, and then everything after that was obvious or flavor. WotLK, BC, and vanilla wow trees would have been a solid tier 2.

LotRO could be Tier 2 if they ever open up the trees to free form and and free selection of the same cost. Will it make it harder to balance? Certainly, but also would give it meaning and purpose and open up true hybrid builds like wow WotLK and prior.

Good points made, and I do agree, wholeheartedly -- LotRO's skill trees are definitely not a true hybrid system by any means. I could only wish for that. (as if it would ever happen)

I'm not sure who Tom Baker is, but I am glad his ass and myself can agree on this.

https://www.tombakerofficial.com/ (best known for being the 4th Doctor in Doctor Who)

Doctor Who was ruined for me as a kid. We had one TV and on the weekends when we were allowed in my father watched this shitty weird talking show with multi-colored blobs of awful special effects, and talking, and more talking, and then even more. Then he watched Benny Hill after which showed real boobs and was silly enough to be funny to my child mind even though I had no idea what was going on. Then was a cop show I can remember the music too but not the name - one guy was called Fish. Then he watched Welcome Back Carter after that. Or Sanford and Son. I forget which was last. Then he would be pretty drunk by then and go to bingo with my mom or out to a bar. The only positive memories I have of these TV watching shows with my old man is Benny Hill and real boobs on TV. Props to England for putting real boobs on TV. It was and still is a great idea. Real boobs make everything better.

I love Sci-Fi and would probably really enjoy Doctor Who now, but my butthurt from childhood still rankles. Also, it was confusing to my child mind to see a white guy with an afro.

Tom Baker is generally considered the greatest of the 12 (so far) Doctors to have played the role in the series. I am sorry that you had some pretty shitty memories from childhood, but you can get episode storylines on DVD, they really are a treat :

https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-U...F8&qid=1497879938&sr=1-37&keywords=doctor+who Patrick Troughton (the 2nd Doctor)
https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-E...F8&qid=1497879938&sr=1-41&keywords=doctor+who a great one of Tom Baker (the 4th Doctor)
https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-S...F8&qid=1497879938&sr=1-48&keywords=doctor+who Jon Pertwee (the 3rd Doctor, starring with his nemesis The Master)
https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-S...F8&qid=1497880135&sr=1-54&keywords=doctor+who Key of Time is most likely the finest of Baker

Is being his ass a joke only people familiar with Doctor Who would get? And does any of the doctor who's have hard sci-fi or are they more fantasy than sci-fi? I watched the first episode of this show about highschool kids fighting aliens and Doctor Who was in it. It was way more fantasy than sci-fi, and far from hard sci-fi. Have you watched the Black Mirror? It is kind of like a technology based Twilight Zone. Some of the episodes are really good, and even the bad ones are still pretty good.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,825
The issue with the secret world is there are no builds. Everyone has access to everything, just like most skill systems. The only choice is what function to pick at the moment.
Of course there are builds. Combining skills from different trees you can make a huge amount of perfectly viable and powerful builds. Its a great tool to mix and match skills and weapons to make either a specialized character or one that can be used for many purposes.
The fact that you can swich those builds on the fly outside of combat doesnt meant they arent there. Also the sheer amount of skills and their costs meant you had to pick what to unlock first.

As for GW1 - I din't play it all that much but there was very limited pve and you had instant cap and open skill selection for pvp
You picked 2 classes and could use the skills from each class and combine them. the skills came in the form of cards you could unlock by stealing them from different monsters or buying them etc. there were hundreds of them,
 
Joined
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Too bad it is Eberron <shudder>

LOTRO's skill trees are not as shitty as people make them out to be. There is a "somewhat" open element to them when first building your spec. It is at that point you can borrow from other trees. In other words I can have a Hunter who traits Blue with a touch of Red, or a Champ who traits Yellow with a touch of Red.

I agree, but the options are very limited, and it locks you out of the non-primary color's gained abilities besides counting twice as much per point. It is more flavor than a system of any significance. There is one main choice - which tree to pick. I would relate it to the skill trees of wow in Cataclysm. You had one real choice, and then everything after that was obvious or flavor. WotLK, BC, and vanilla wow trees would have been a solid tier 2.

LotRO could be Tier 2 if they ever open up the trees to free form and and free selection of the same cost. Will it make it harder to balance? Certainly, but also would give it meaning and purpose and open up true hybrid builds like wow WotLK and prior.

Good points made, and I do agree, wholeheartedly -- LotRO's skill trees are definitely not a true hybrid system by any means. I could only wish for that. (as if it would ever happen)

I'm not sure who Tom Baker is, but I am glad his ass and myself can agree on this.

https://www.tombakerofficial.com/ (best known for being the 4th Doctor in Doctor Who)

Doctor Who was ruined for me as a kid. We had one TV and on the weekends when we were allowed in my father watched this shitty weird talking show with multi-colored blobs of awful special effects, and talking, and more talking, and then even more. Then he watched Benny Hill after which showed real boobs and was silly enough to be funny to my child mind even though I had no idea what was going on. Then was a cop show I can remember the music too but not the name - one guy was called Fish. Then he watched Welcome Back Carter after that. Or Sanford and Son. I forget which was last. Then he would be pretty drunk by then and go to bingo with my mom or out to a bar. The only positive memories I have of these TV watching shows with my old man is Benny Hill and real boobs on TV. Props to England for putting real boobs on TV. It was and still is a great idea. Real boobs make everything better.

I love Sci-Fi and would probably really enjoy Doctor Who now, but my butthurt from childhood still rankles. Also, it was confusing to my child mind to see a white guy with an afro.

Tom Baker is generally considered the greatest of the 12 (so far) Doctors to have played the role in the series. I am sorry that you had some pretty shitty memories from childhood, but you can get episode storylines on DVD, they really are a treat :

https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-U...F8&qid=1497879938&sr=1-37&keywords=doctor+who Patrick Troughton (the 2nd Doctor)
https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-E...F8&qid=1497879938&sr=1-41&keywords=doctor+who a great one of Tom Baker (the 4th Doctor)
https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-S...F8&qid=1497879938&sr=1-48&keywords=doctor+who Jon Pertwee (the 3rd Doctor, starring with his nemesis The Master)
https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-S...F8&qid=1497880135&sr=1-54&keywords=doctor+who Key of Time is most likely the finest of Baker

Is being his ass a joke only people familiar with Doctor Who would get? And does any of the doctor who's have hard sci-fi or are they more fantasy than sci-fi? I watched the first episode of this show about highschool kids fighting aliens and Doctor Who was in it. It was way more fantasy than sci-fi, and far from hard sci-fi. Have you watched the Black Mirror? It is kind of like a technology based Twilight Zone. Some of the episodes are really good, and even the bad ones are still pretty good.

Black Mirror is bloody amazing ! My username has nothing to do with the show and is simply a made up reference. Over the years, Doctor Who has run the gambit from hard sci-fi, to fantasy, to space opera, to mystery, its done it all, that is the pure genius to the show's grand legacy. If you really want to get a real sense of what the show is really all about, I suggest starting with the above-mentioned DVDs, and THEN moving on to the modern era Doctors. Grounding yourself in the early Doctors first really will give you a sense of what the show is, and what the Doctor is all about.
As I said, the Black Mirror is incredible, my favourite episode is the one where the dude exercises all day, and then lives in this tiny room with a bed at night watching this same TV game show every night. Everyone is training to get on the game show. Its just bizarro.
 

Norfleet

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The issue with the secret world is there are no builds. Everyone has access to everything, just like most skill systems. The only choice is what function to pick at the moment.
Of course there are builds. Combining skills from different trees you can make a huge amount of perfectly viable and powerful builds. Its a great tool to mix and match skills and weapons to make either a specialized character or one that can be used for many purposes.
Yeah, I have to agree with Roqua on this. What you're describing isn't a "build", at least until the cost of equipment starts to lock you in. This is a loadout. You're like some kind of Generic Military Fighting Vehicle that can be fitted with wings, wheels, treads, armor, engines, guns, cannons, missiles, bombs, etc., and whether you're a tank, a helicopter, a fighter jet, or a jeep all depends on what you happened to pick as a loadout. This isn't really a build, although in many ways it's functionally similar to one. But you didn't have to really build it, and as a significant benefit, your entire character isn't trashed if you're loaded out as a tank and they nerf tanks. But merely being a loadout rather than a build makes your choices lack the same level of impact, for better or worse. I argue that in the constantly-being-nerfed environment of an MMO, this works out better for the player, but it's not exactly character building anymore.
 

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The issue with the secret world is there are no builds. Everyone has access to everything, just like most skill systems. The only choice is what function to pick at the moment.
Of course there are builds. Combining skills from different trees you can make a huge amount of perfectly viable and powerful builds. Its a great tool to mix and match skills and weapons to make either a specialized character or one that can be used for many purposes.
The fact that you can swich those builds on the fly outside of combat doesnt meant they arent there. Also the sheer amount of skills and their costs meant you had to pick what to unlock first.

As for GW1 - I din't play it all that much but there was very limited pve and you had instant cap and open skill selection for pvp
You picked 2 classes and could use the skills from each class and combine them. the skills came in the form of cards you could unlock by stealing them from different monsters or buying them etc. there were hundreds of them,

If you can be anything at any time at cap there is no opportunity cost at all. Compare this to a game like DDO and AO or Fallen Earth. In my opinion if your choices can be anything that amounts to nothing. For some reason most skill games allow players to max all skills and then pick a "loadout" like in TSW. I believe a game I was really looking forward to, Shards Online, is going this max everything route. It holds zero appeal to me. It works out the same as a game with no builds because everyone is exactly the same. This is the exact opposite of what I think the core of an rpg is about.
 

Lhynn

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If you can be anything at any time at cap there is no opportunity cost at all.
Of course there is, you can spend years maxing out your skill trees.
Besides, we are talking about complexity and meaningful choices and both systems have that in spades.

Anyway, the most indepth and interesting character system in any mmo ever belongs to city of heroes.
 

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Because you are as retarded as he is. A build does not need to be permanent to be a build.
If it lacks any permanence, it isn't really a build, now is it? It sort of crosses the line into being a "loadout" if there is no permanence to it. When I slot autocannons onto my plane to convert it for hunting bombers, I'm not running a "new plane build", it's just a loadout. I didn't have to build a new plane.

If you can be anything at any time at cap there is no opportunity cost at all.
Well, that's not entirely true either. Just because you can be anything, it does not mean that you can be EVERYTHING. Take something like JA2. It's entirely possible to max every skill on every merc. Even if you do this out of boredom, you're not really going to actually use this capability. Just because you can do everything, it does not mean that you can do everything. Your mercs may be capable of functioning as a trainer, a doctor, a mechanic, and a combatant with maximal effectiveness. You can do anything. But you can't do everything, because that would require the ability to work all of these jobs at once. There's an opportunity cost: Every skill you can't directly employ and the cost of acquiring it is wasted. Odds are some lesser-qualified merc only capable of doing one job, perhaps not even at 100 effectiveness, is going to wind up handling tasks like hauling, fixing, and doctoring, while your super-mercs are working front line combat.

I believe a game I was really looking forward to, Shards Online, is going this max everything route. It holds zero appeal to me. It works out the same as a game with no builds because everyone is exactly the same. This is the exact opposite of what I think the core of an rpg is about.
For the reasons I mentioned above, "max everything" isn't necessarily WRONG. It isn't even necessarily unrealistic. Real people don't just run out of skillpoints and become forevermore unable to improve at anything, after all.

What do you think of the concept of the ability to max out everything, except there is also permanent death, which, in real life, is the balancing mechanism that stops people from doing that?
 

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Because you are as retarded as he is. A build does not need to be permanent to be a build.
If it lacks any permanence, it isn't really a build, now is it? It sort of crosses the line into being a "loadout" if there is no permanence to it. When I slot autocannons onto my plane to convert it for hunting bombers, I'm not running a "new plane build", it's just a loadout. I didn't have to build a new plane.

If you can be anything at any time at cap there is no opportunity cost at all.
Well, that's not entirely true either. Just because you can be anything, it does not mean that you can be EVERYTHING. Take something like JA2. It's entirely possible to max every skill on every merc. Even if you do this out of boredom, you're not really going to actually use this capability. Just because you can do everything, it does not mean that you can do everything. Your mercs may be capable of functioning as a trainer, a doctor, a mechanic, and a combatant with maximal effectiveness. You can do anything. But you can't do everything, because that would require the ability to work all of these jobs at once. There's an opportunity cost: Every skill you can't directly employ and the cost of acquiring it is wasted. Odds are some lesser-qualified merc only capable of doing one job, perhaps not even at 100 effectiveness, is going to wind up handling tasks like hauling, fixing, and doctoring, while your super-mercs are working front line combat.

I believe a game I was really looking forward to, Shards Online, is going this max everything route. It holds zero appeal to me. It works out the same as a game with no builds because everyone is exactly the same. This is the exact opposite of what I think the core of an rpg is about.
For the reasons I mentioned above, "max everything" isn't necessarily WRONG. It isn't even necessarily unrealistic. Real people don't just run out of skillpoints and become forevermore unable to improve at anything, after all.

What do you think of the concept of the ability to max out everything, except there is also permanent death, which, in real life, is the balancing mechanism that stops people from doing that?

I like working within the confines of a system. Where every decision has a steep opportunity cost of not allowing you x and y and z. And when there are hundreds of decisions is when things get interesting, especially if there is a stiff price of time or resources to change or make adjustments.
 

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If it lacks any permanence
It has the permanence the player gives it. Like any of the hundreds of rpgs with a respec function or cheats. You spergs are thinking about this way too much.
 

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If it lacks any permanence
It has the permanence the player gives it. Like any of the hundreds of rpgs with a respec function or cheats. You spergs are thinking about this way too much.

Such as? That is utter nonsense. That is like saying putting on a bib and putting on a tuxedo are the same and you can take them both off easily and have the same annoyance factor the person donning or removing the garments give them. Same with full plate armor, etc.

The fact you mention cheats is even stupid for the codex. You should be ashamed of even thinking that. And the fact you wrote it should be a permanent black mark on your account and brought up every time you try and say something you think sounds smart so you are reminded.

Cost can be normalized. Time has been universally normalized so even you guys have to admit that a system that locks you in for longer periods of time has a higher cost than systems with no time locks? Right?

The cost to change builds could also be normalized the same way currencies in the real world are, and we could prove mathematically that some systems have a significantly higher cost than others and some systems have no cost. What you are attempting to do is say is something that is free basically is equal to something that costs 15 or 20 dollars because someone can have both of them and the values are what the owner decides its worth once they get it for free or pay good money for it. That's just a sophomoric approach it and done so callously it bothers me. Its kind of like (but on a much less grand and important scale) telling a girl who was just raped and thinks its a huge deal that it wasn't and to stop being a baby people get raped all the time.


Are people more likely to reply a game with lots of classes or one class that can be anything and has free instant respecs at any time? Are people more likely to have alts in games with high cost to change builds and classes or open and free fast and simple be anything at anytime system?

It would be nice if people put even a small fraction of a complete and coherent thought into what the are saying before saying it and just kind of thought about it for a second.
 

Lhynn

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If it lacks any permanence
It has the permanence the player gives it. Like any of the hundreds of rpgs with a respec function or cheats. You spergs are thinking about this way too much.

Such as? That is utter nonsense. That is like saying putting on a bib and putting on a tuxedo...
No, its like saying that a square soap and a round soap are the same. mechanically they mean the same thing. Everything else does not matter.
Stop trying to give new definitions to terms already established, or if its an important enough difference to you disclose it on the OP so i can cater to your very special type of retardation when i make my recommendation.
 

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Ok man, I did some research into this question, and came up with this list of MMOs with non-shit character development. Mind you, this list is by no means complete, but it should be a good starting point.

Here it is:
 

Norfleet

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I like working within the confines of a system. Where every decision has a steep opportunity cost of not allowing you x and y and z. And when there are hundreds of decisions is when things get interesting, especially if there is a stiff price of time or resources to change or make adjustments.
Which is reasonable enough, except that in the MMO environment where all your choices are locked in as such, there's basically no useful way to make a decision that isn't guaranteed to be wrong, because even if you're right, the developers will see to it that it becomes wrong, just because you were right.
 

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