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CthuluIsSpy

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Yeah, DLC resistances are nuts.
You can still poison and bleed most of them though. Poison arrows are your lord and savior in this game.

What's the sanctum crossbow like? Is it worth leveling up int to use it?
 

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Yeah, DLC resistances are nuts.
You can still poison and bleed most of them though. Poison arrows are your lord and savior in this game.

Yeah, that's the funny thing. You can still get up to plenty of cheese with bows.

People tend to think magic is easy mode because you don't need to do as much split-second evasion, and that is often true since medium-range engagements require enemies to continually close distance, yet somehow I tend to feel far safer fighting many enemies in melee range. For one thing, you're not going to accidentally back off a cliff or into a nearby roomful of enemies if you engage point-blank. One-handed melee strikes are far quicker than any spell and much more difficult for most enemies to punish as long as you don't get greedy. Heide Knights are the first great example of this, since they may or may not follow through on their entire combo and also have a highly unpredictable but slightly delayed turbo-tracking insta-lunge when recovering, which was always great at skewering me mid-cast. I've fought them at bonfire intensity 2 at length while experimenting with new weapons.
 

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People tend to think magic is easy mode because you don't need to do as much split-second evasion, and that is often true since medium-range engagements require enemies to continually close distance, yet somehow I tend to feel far safer fighting many enemies in melee range.

Afaik the general consensus is magic is by far the easiest route throught the game, basically the easy mode. Especially dark magic in DS2 which is downright broken. People playing melee bc is way more fun. But whatever floats your boat I guess.
 

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The general consensus, as is often the case, isn't necessarily reflective of reality. Also, a good portion of the consensus is outdated and based on pre-SotFS, pre-nerfed magic.

Another general consensus is that DS2 is a terrible game made by the From Software B-Team (a phrase that quickly became a meme) and the worst in the series, which I don't think is true at all.
 

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Damn, this game loves throwing Pursuers at you. There is second one almost immediately after the giant eagle transports you to Lost Bastille, and now I found yet another one after entering The Lost Bastille from No Man's Wharf side. Were there so many in the vanilla game too or is this a 'feature' of SotFS?
 

cvv

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The general consensus, as is often the case, isn't necessarily reflective of reality. Also, a good portion of the consensus is outdated and based on pre-SotFS, pre-nerfed magic.

Another general consensus is that DS2 is a terrible game made by the From Software B-Team (a phrase that quickly became a meme) and the worst in the series, which I don't think is true at all.

The first consensus IS reflective of reality in my book.

But the second one DOES come from the impressions of the vanilla DS2. I played DS2 only in the SotFS incarnation but I kindda see where the disappointment came from. The level design can't hold a candle to the original DS and the art style is severely lacking. At the same time DS community is an uber-edgy bunch of drama queens and they tend to autistically bitch over every single detail if it's off. Plus the second game could never be as surprising, breathtaking and memorable as DS1 even if it was made by Miyazaki (the Miyazaki who gives a shit ofc, not the one from DS3) so some disappointment was always bound to happen.

All in all SotFS, with all the DLCs, is a fabulous game, only a few small notches below the original in my book.
 

Mozg

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People tend to think magic is easy mode because you don't need to do as much split-second evasion, and that is often true since medium-range engagements require enemies to continually close distance, yet somehow I tend to feel far safer fighting many enemies in melee range.

Afaik the general consensus is magic is by far the easiest route throught the game, basically the easy mode. Especially dark magic in DS2 which is downright broken. People playing melee bc is way more fun. But whatever floats your boat I guess.

Nah, they nerfed the hell out of it. It's just OK, and you spend a large % of the time playing a normal melee character except with an infusion and buff. Easiest is probably rob+flynn with a rapier, you ain't gotta learn shit before things die to spam.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Damn, this game loves throwing Pursuers at you. There is second one almost immediately after the giant eagle transports you to Lost Bastille, and now I found yet another one after entering The Lost Bastille from No Man's Wharf side. Were there so many in the vanilla game too or is this a 'feature' of SotFS?

Its a SotFS thing. In my (vanilla) playthrough I've only encountered the Pursuer thrice; twice in Forest of Fallen giants, once in Iron Keep.
 
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Blaine

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The first consensus IS reflective of reality in my book.

You've just earned a brofist from praetor, another smug retard who has no idea what he's talking about and produced no response when faced with facts proving him incorrect.

But the second one DOES come from the impressions of the vanilla DS2. I played DS2 only in the SotFS incarnation but I kindda see where the disappointment came from. The level design can't hold a candle to the original DS and the art style is severely lacking. At the same time DS community is an uber-edgy bunch of drama queens and they tend to autistically bitch over every single detail if it's off. Plus the second game could never be as surprising, breathtaking and memorable as DS1 even if it was made by Miyazaki (the Miyazaki who gives a shit ofc, not the one from DS3) so some disappointment was always bound to happen.

All in all SotFS, with all the DLCs, is a fabulous game, only a few small notches below the original in my book.

Yeah, I agree Dark Souls has the edge over DS2. Yet it has a few lacking areas where DS2 wins out, although it's been a very long time since I've played it, so it's hard to properly compare... might need to pick up the PC version at some point.

In particular, the EZ mode magic you believe still exists in DS2 was ultra EZ mode in DS1. I've only played a bit of DS3, but I've heard they've nerfed magic so badly in DS3 that there's virtually no point in playing a magic-using character. Basically, From Software has no idea how to properly implement magic use, in part because they rely utterly on rolling through point-blank telegraphed attacks as the games' primary source of difficulty.
 

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Its a SotFS thing. In my (vanilla) playthrough I've only encountered the Pursuer thrice; twice in Forest of Fallen giants, once in Iron Keep.

There are now several spots in Lost Bastille, one in Things Betwixt, one or two (possibly three) in various revisited boss arenas, and at least a couple more too. All you have to do is run away if you don't want to fight him and he'll disappear from that spot until you rest at the next bonfire or leave the area.

He stops popping up everywhere later on in the game.
 

sullynathan

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Demons souls had the easiest magic, you can kill bosses in a couple of hits except for the false king.

Dark souls wasn't as easy but had a greater number of magic spells.

Then dark souls 2 wasn't as easy and had a greater number of spells.

Until dark souls 3 balanced it out
 

Blaine

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If by "balanced it out" you mean turned it into unusable garbage to the point that Sorcerer is the hardest starting choice other than Deprived and remains weak throughout the entire game, then sure.

Whether too strong or too weak, ultimately magic has been a frustrating and unsatisfying addition to the Souls franchise, intended to add variety but badly implemented and not especially designed with the game's actual encounters and mechanics in mind.

Dragon's Dogma may not be as difficult or prestigious as Dark Souls, but one thing it didn't do was fuck up the implementation of magic use. It proves that a Souls-like game doesn't have to have shitty magic mechanics.
 
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CthuluIsSpy

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So I killed Nashandra.
Not too hard, actually. Annoying because of her orbs, but manageable, especially if you have the blessed crowns.
I think I killed all of the bosses in the base game. Time to hammer my dick and kill the "challenge" bosses I guess.
 

Blaine

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Ah yes, I almost forgot the near-uselessness—and indeed likely additional hindrance—of armor in virtually any PvE fight that's remotely difficult, especially at NG+ strength and beyond. Phantoms are perhaps an exception, because they're PvP-like and Poise also matters.

Fully upgraded Havel's with a Ring of Iron Protection +2 and high defensive stats will reduce a physical blow by, at most, 120 points of damage on average. When bosses that matter are smashing you for a bare minimum of 600 HP per hit, assuming you have 2,000 HP for simplicity's sake, this will allow you to take probably (but not necessarily) one additional hit before dying. The price you'll pay for this is an absurd investment in VIT that could simply go to more health, stamina, mobility, and damage instead, and even then your mobility will be severely reduced. Astronomical amounts of VIT are required to wear full Havel's and other gear and rings while not fatrolling.

That's with the toughest armor in the game. Thing is though, many bosses incorporate elemental damage, and the range of elemental protection isn't nearly as high even on the heaviest armors. So, in reality, you'll generally be taking at least 4/5ths of the total damage even in extremely protective armor with specific elemental rings.

As for Poise, it's really only useful for slogging through (some) non-boss PvE and in PvP. This is because the hardest bosses deal approximately infinity Poise damage, with minor exceptions such as possibly not being staggered by a single hit from the Fume Knight's longsword (what an advantage!).

Anyway, I knew all this going in. When I switch to my non-upgraded farming gear with zilch defense (Jester's Cap, Jester's Gloves, Prisoner's Tatters, etc.), I barely notice a difference and that's versus NG regular enemies.

Magic and armor clearly have to be shit so that we can have a rolling, backstabbing, and bow-sniping simulator, apparently because people need to brag about memorizing when to roll because that's the most highly skilled thing of all time. When I finish my no-hit naked Fume Knight run and post the video, you will all be obligated to bow down to me as the thread master and expert on all things Dark Souls, the most skilled individual ever to live and clearly the 1337est.

I'm going on vacation this afternoon though, so it'll be a while.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Yeah, armor has a reputation for being useless in the dark souls series.

In Dark Souls 1 it isn't as apparent because common mobs don't take half your health and poise actually works , but in DS2 enemies deal so much damage that it doesn't really matter what armor you have, and the changes to poise makes it so that everything staggers you unless you are attacking. But that's bad, because if you take damage while you are attacking (which is when DS2 poise activates), then chances are you'll get knocked out of it anyway due to the poise break of the attack and lose half your life.

This also means more fast attacking enemies had to be introduced to give that change to poise meaning, so you end up with more of those enemies that do that retard flail move that stun locks you and take 80% of your life unless you are attacking at that very moment.
That move also existed in DS1, but at least you didn't get stun locked if you were wearing armor, thus giving you an incentive to go heavy.

DS2 made some nice mechanical changes that beat DS1. Poise and Armor isn't one of them.

Well, at least it gave birth to fashion souls. Your stats don't really matter so might as well wear what you want, I guess.

Funny you mention no hit naked Fume Knight...

 
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sullynathan

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If by "balanced it out" you mean turned it into unusable garbage to the point that Sorcerer is the hardest starting choice other than Deprived and remains weak throughout the entire game, then sure.

Whether too strong or too weak, ultimately magic has been a frustrating and unsatisfying addition to the Souls franchise, intended to add variety but badly implemented and not especially designed with the game's actual encounters and mechanics in mind.

Dragon's Dogma may not be as difficult or prestigious as Dark Souls, but one thing it didn't do was fuck up the implementation of magic use. It proves that a Souls-like game doesn't have to have shitty magic mechanics.
I'm joking with the whole balanced thing, magic was less overpowered in souls 3
 

Blaine

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I'm joking with the whole balanced thing, magic was less overpowered in souls 3

Absolutely every single person who calls magic "overpowered" from SotFS onward is trying to humblebrag about their melee skills, even though quality melee is objectively by far the easiest way to play through the game.

There are no exceptions. You are all braggarts who bring opinions to the table, but no hard facts.

I know because I changed my build to this from the previous heavy INT/ATN investment:

acd2d3e54b.png


I still have a few slots and enough INT for utilities like Fall Control, Light, Repair, and Flash Sweat (and the shittier sword/shield buffs), but the game is now an absolute cakewalk. Removing 50 points from INT/ATN and freeing up a ring slot drastically increased my ability to faceroll the game, whether with a super 80 stability greatshield or by getting naked and rolling/sidestepping around everywhere, all without wasting time casting slow-ass spells that do less damage than a weapon swing and leave you wide open to bumrushing enemies.
 

Blaine

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Now that I'm back from mini-vacation, I've worked my way past the second bonfire in Sunken King (effortlessly sidestepping and backstabbing every melee enemy for 1300 damage with the Bandit Axe along the way, but yeah magic is OP man I mean it's so easy just WOW) and I'm debating whether or not I still find this game Fun™.

Mainly it's the tedium that's sucking the fun out. Take for example that one stretch leading to the second Sunken King bonfire, with three archers and two playing-dead melee dudes along a winding cliff pathway. Killing them is easy, but tedious, and it's much more tedious if you want to take any of them out at range, because a maxed-out Heavy Crossbow requires something like 9-10 shots to kill one of them, all while dealing with the shit-tier cheats they have in place to assist ranged enemies (slow arrows for everyone so that they can sidestep your shots, homing arrows for them so that evasion is much more difficult for you, near-unlimited range for them, two seconds of slowdown when you fire an arrow to assist them when exchanging fire, etc.). Meleeing them all is possible, but also tedious. That's on NG.

By the way, if you have to drop down to a ledge from which Homeward whatever is the only escape, they're all going to respawn so that you can enjoy the same tedium again.

I will probably finish the game, but I seriously doubt I'll play NG+. I just won't be able to tolerate the bullet sponge factor, which will be off the charts by then. In Dragon Aerie I have serious trouble killing Crystal Lizards after having used two Bonfire Ascetics because they're now so fucking tanky.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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There's a shortcut that allows you to bypass the archers. You have to mess around with the pillars for a bit, and one of them makes a path from near the bonfire.
In fact, in terms of level design Sunken King is probably the best of the DLCs; there are a lot of little shortcuts that you can use. There is one annoying thing though and that is most of the important bonfires are pretty well hidden.

Ivory King would be the worst though; a lot of it is a sprawling haul between one bonfire to the next, and there aren't that many shortcuts that really matter.
It also has the most bullshit enemies in the game.
 

Blaine

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I figured out the shortcut, and also all the ups/downs needed to reach the various corpses tucked away on rooftops and platforms. I enjoy and appreciate puzzles, and those were pretty decent. In the first area though, exploring everything will leave you stuck in a dead end down below on sunken platforms from which using the Feather or dying (and respawning all of the enemies) is the only escape. In the second area, I suppose it might not be strictly necessary to fight the archers more than once before getting all the loot and finding the shortcut, but it's likely to occur at least once for one reason or another unless you're already familiar with the area.

Then there's the part in Dragon Sanctum with the spiked floor (which can be deactivated) past the tick trap fall-down containing two dark casters and several ghost knights whose tombs aren't readily apparent anywhere. I figured out the knights' gimmick immediately when I glanced in on the ones near the entrance and saw the bloody particle effects, but after the drop your choice is to either sprint around an unfamiliar area blindly looking for their tombs, which is typically suicidal behavior in Dark Souls, or fight them cautiously in ghost form, which is mind-bendingly tedious even with a strong elemental weapon. The only way to return to the very beginning (behind the first drop-off into the gank room) unless you complete almost the whole area is a Feather, or dying.

Generally speaking, I also find situations that dump multiple enemies on you to be extremely obnoxious. I typically do much better at them than I would have expected if I'd overthought it beforehand (gate behind Pate, that gank room I just mentioned, etc.), but they really don't play to the game's strengths. Gank rooms are generally far easier now that I'm specced as melee than they were as Sorcerer spec, though.

I haven't died yet in Sunken King, but I threw in the towel when I found the room above that spike floor containing the ghost knights' tombs, guarded by three more ghost knights. I killed one of them with a Blue Flame with resin, and then rather than risk rushing into a room I couldn't see properly, I just Feathered out.

They'll all be back when I go back in there. Caution is the watchword of Dark Souls, yet the design in that area forces you to be reckless in some way in order to even see what you can do.

I did however realize that I can trap them all in the tick pit without needing to fight them, by using Fall Control and Jester's Tights, leading them to the drop, then quickly scrambling up the ladder. In theory they can all be corralled in there while you safely destroy their tombs, although that requires clearing out the tick pit.

It's just feeling like a damned chore slogging through it all at this point because they're trying so hard to GOTCHA.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Yeah, that room with the statues and the knights is some bullshit. You pretty much have to rush in there and break everything. Good chances are you'll die, but the statues don't respawn at least.
I did actually survive that initial encounter somehow, but then I got hit by a lucky crossbow bolt :negative:
Sanctum knights themselves are some bullshit too; they cannot be staggered, have high resistances and are one of those enemies that just have a rapid flurry of attacks that can stunlock you and of course kill you. I hated fighting them.
 
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you have 3 bonfires in shulva and another 3 in dragon sanctum. how shitty you have to be to rely on feather/homeward bone every 50 meters?

standard sanctum soldiers are not a problem. you can kill them in 2 hits with dark infused crypt blacksword+ dark weapon. with my STr/FTH character i was oneshotting them with backstabs and lost sinner greatsword.

its true you cant poise break sanctum knights but they chain their attacks all the time leaving them vulnerable to backstabs. also if thats not your first souls game and you fight them intheir ghost form than you are fucking retarded. itsobvious that something is wrong when you do almost no damage to mobs in those games. either explore more or you are missing some item that makes the encounter trivial. they also cant climb the ladders.

sunken city is probably the only location that comes close to exploring blightown pre-lordsvessel in DS1. and i am not talking about framerate here :lol: environmental hazards, angry cunts behind every corner and red phantoms just waiting to fuck you shit up
 

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