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Not Accessibility, but Dumbing Down

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hardcore RPG
Pillars of Eternity
BIgSv6H.gif

Good point, but I decided to name the most successful one, lest I be accused in choosing obscure games just to prove my point that they don't sell so well :)
 

Atlantico

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So you do know what a shooter is or at least what it isn't.

I know what I consider a shooter, I don't exactly know what you consider a shooter, except for GTAV.

Have you seen Age of Decadence? Pillars of Eternity? You know, the games that I've mentioned as examples for several posts now.

I have, neither of which I'd consider hardcore RPGs.

Why are we discussing it for several days then? :)

Well you have perhaps, but as you pointed out, I have not.

Congratulations on 100 posts! I feel honored to have been part of 20% of all your posts since 2013 :D
 
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I have, neither of which I'd consider hardcore RPGs.

What would you consider hardcore RPGs then? Because even these are barely selling. Any RPG that is more complex than PoE is doomed to failure.

I know what I consider a shooter, I don't exactly know what you consider a shooter, except for GTAV.

A shooter is a game built around shooting stuff, mainly relying on player's reflexes and twitch skills as opposed to the character skills. Notable shooters: Cowaduty, Battlefield, Bioshock, Half Life etc.

Congratulations on 100 posts! I feel honored to have been part of 20% of all your posts since 2013 :D

Thanks :)

Well you have perhaps, but as you pointed out, I have not.

What the hell are you discussing then? :)
 

Atlantico

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What would you consider hardcore RPGs then? Because even these are barely selling. Any RPG that is more complex than PoE is doomed to failure.

Failure is surely defined by the expectations set, based on the potential market and time/money spent on development and marketing. I don't like putting a qualifier on any games, "hardcore racing game" or "hardcore platformer", just doesn't make sense to me any more than "hardcore RPG".

(or "hardcore dating sim" in the case of Bioware games :P )

A shooter is a game built around shooting stuff, mainly relying on player's reflexes and twitch skills as opposed to the character skills. Notable shooters: Cowaduty, Battlefield, Bioshock, Half Life etc.

Oh sure, no doubt those are shooters, you just threw me off with GTAV. But I think we're on the same page regarding shooters (except of course GTAV which I think could better be categorized as and action-LARPG)

What the hell are you discussing then? :)

Two things, one is that attempting to broaden narrowly defined genre defining games by adding in elements that are found in popular dumbed down games, such as adding multiplayer, co-op, and other industry buzzwords and removing defining features, because they're not found in the dumb games,is a failed model and the other is that the perceived rise in popularity of seemingly dumbed down games is more due to increase in gamer population than the appeal of the game itself (e.g. Morrowind vs Skyrim) and perhaps even due to better distribution systems (e.g. Steam)

They both touch what I see the core of your argument, that niche games always sell worse than dumb generic games, so niche games should try to be like dumb generic games, in order to appeal both to the people looking for the niche game and all the rest just looking for a dumb game. Of which there are already plenty.
 

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It's just an action adventure. Why complicate things unnecessarily?

My attempt to underline the silliness of over-categorization of computer games, wrgt things like "hardcore RPG". I guess I should have added a /s tag, in hindsight.
 

Machocruz

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If Bethesda or Blizzard came out with a more complex than PoE, with their name and full resources put behind it, I'd bet any amount of money it would sell at least double what PoE did.
 
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They both touch what I see the core of your argument, that niche games always sell worse than dumb generic games, so niche games should try to be like dumb generic games

I have said nothing of the sort. Niche games do sell worse than generic games. This doesn't mean that niche games should try to be like generic games. In fact, if you're a small studio, it makes more sense to make niche games for your 5% of the market and avoid competing with AAA giants for the "generic" 95%. You just need to realize that you will not break out of your 5% while you're working in the niche.
 
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If Bethesda or Blizzard came out with a more complex than PoE, with their name and full resources put behind it, I'd bet any amount of money it would sell at least double what PoE did.

Yes, and they would still lose money on it.
 

Atlantico

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I have said nothing of the sort. Niche games do sell worse than generic games. This doesn't mean that niche games should try to be like generic games. In fact, if you're a small studio, it makes more sense to make niche games for your 5% of the market and avoid competing with AAA giants for the "generic" 95%. You just need to realize that you will not break out of your 5% while you're working in the niche.

This thread is about that exact topic, so I inferred that into your post, even if you didn't write it out. That being said, I agree with you completely on what you wrote here, and don't have anything but good to say about it! Nice post.

I would like to see AAA publishers to do that as well, because AAA giants do publish niche games as well. And they need to be happy that their niche game was a success within the segment of the market it appealed to and not try to make sequels that dumb things down, ostensibly to appeal to the "generic" part. That part of the market is already covered with their CoDs and Battlefields and Titanfalls.
 
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I would like to see AAA publishers to do that as well, because AAA giants do publish niche games as well. And they need to be happy that their niche game was a success within the segment of the market it appealed to and not try to make sequels that dumb things down

No argument there, it would indeed be great if they didn't expect to sell every game to everyone!
 

Machocruz

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Yes, and they would still lose money on it.

Yes probably, but maybe a small chance it wouldn't depending on how the game is presented. If it looks an old, crusty (to dudebros and larpers) isometric game from the past, they would lose money on an AAA budget. But if it had enough Mountain Dew powered spectacle and awshum moments in the trailers, and Howardian bullshitting, and the perspective is shifted to 3rd person, they might not.

Point is that it's more plausible to me that people are persuaded or dissuaded quite a bit more by (not to mention, more aware of) factors like presentation, enjoyment of prior series installments, marketing/hype, developer pedigree, etc. than they are by how complex a game is*, which is information that is not as pronounced. Unless, like Dark Souls, the game becomes synonymous with these difficult things and this dominates the entire narrative in all news. But like Path of Exile could have been made the dumbest Diablo-like arpg ever made, all previews and reviews screaming this point from the rooftops, but because it doesn't have the names Diablo or Blizzard attached and all that entails, it would never be as popular as Diablo 3

*I mean when comparing specific games to each other. No argument here that overall arcade/action/simple has more mass appeal than simulation/strategy/complexity, and it's always been this way in vidya.

EDIT: No, I'm not confusing PoEx with PoEt, lol
 
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But if it had enough Mountain Dew powered spectacle and awshum moments in the trailers [...]

You mean like the Marilyn Manson trailers for Dragon Age? :D

Point is that it's more plausible to me that people are persuaded or dissuaded quite a bit more by (not to mention, more aware of) factors like presentation, enjoyment of prior series installments, marketing/hype, developer pedigree, etc. than they are by how complex a game is

Yeah, I think it's true.
 
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My attempt to underline the silliness of over-categorization of computer games, wrgt things like "hardcore RPG". I guess I should have added a /s tag, in hindsight.

Silliness is pretending that precise categorization doesn’t matter when the loose use of the term “cRPG” is one the key factors that ruined the genre. Just because you are talking about abstract definitions that are hard to pinpoint doesn’t mean is an impossible or pointless task.
 

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Unless, like Dark Souls, the game becomes synonymous with these difficult things and this dominates the entire narrative in all news
Souls has been mentioned a few times in this context throughout this thread. While this statement is true, I'd just like to add that as the series progressed From appealed to the casual bandwagoners more and more to the point where invasions in DS3 had lost their edge. The casuals demanded easier, more frequent co-op, and From caved. The casuals demanded that twinks and troll builds be nerfed, and From caved. The casuals demanded that more bonfires be added so that death wasn't as punishing, and From caved. The history of the Souls series is a history of decline in attempting to appease the masses.
 
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Two things, one is that attempting to broaden narrowly defined genre defining games by adding in elements that are found in popular dumbed down games, such as adding multiplayer, co-op, and other industry buzzwords and removing defining features, because they're not found in the dumb games, is a failed model and the other is that the perceived rise in popularity of seemingly dumbed down games is more due to increase in gamer population than the appeal of the game itself (e.g. Morrowind vs Skyrim) and perhaps even due to better distribution systems (e.g. Steam).

Well, it’s a failed model from the point of view of making a decent cRPG, not from a financial perspective. Every game that includes co-op will sell more than genuine niche cRPGs that stay true to their roots. What happens in this case is that developers want to avoid competition and the risk of failure by broadening the scope. It’s the same phenomenon you see in the market, when, let’s say, a pharmacy starts selling a bunch of products (e.g., bath products) that have nothing to do with drugs and medication. In a sense, is actually worse in gaming because you can still buy the medication you need in the pharmacy and pharmacies are not confused with supermarket for one second, while most cRPGs have watered-down character building and anything is viewed as a cRPG nowadays.
 

Machocruz

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And you can kind of ease a person into hardcore RPGs, as was my case...but....

The first RPG of any description I played was Phantasy Star on the SMS. I rented it because I read in magazines how great it was supposed to be, one of the best games on the system. Plus the presentation was new and strange to me. I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing in the game, but I liked the music and the concept of wandering around with enemies popping up and finding a cave and not sure what it was there for; I tried other people's saved games and I saw that you could get better weapons and find vehicles. Very cool, but had no idea how to get there.

Then I tried Ys and a couple of other SMS RPGs.

Then came one of those Fighting Fantasy novels. Still didn't grasp the RPG concept, and I pretty much just cheated the book until I "won." Not until the 16 bit days did I get it.

Was a JRPGfag for a while, with the occasional western game on consoles (e.g. Shadowrun on Genesis). In college I played my first real RPG, pen and paper DnD, then a couple others. Then later I saw a friend play Baldur's Gate 2 on PC and that was it. I began to prefer crpgs because they were closer to the tabletop xperience. I haven't really looked back since. Now the more details, c&C, ways to build a character, more quest solutions, the better. I eat complex games for breakfast. Dwarf Fortress is popamole to me now :lol:

Thing is, this is a path that gamers today don't really have the benefit of treading. I grew as the genre grew. The games got more sophisticated and as well more impressive. So the new shit were the more sophisticated games. Better looking, better animation, better sound, voice work, more immersive, etc. Incline wasn't really a choice I had to make, just the way things progressed. Nowadays the hot new, better looking shit is the dumber shit. They have to settle for games that are "out of date" if they want something more rigorous. Many can't make that leap, and I've seen this sentiment on forums.

Another thing is, I was never really part of the nerd caste. I dabbled in everything, hung around everyone: sports, games, trouble making, books, art, fighting, etc. I'm amorphous. Still, numbers in games never daunted me. Complex tasks never daunted me. But having seen all sides of the fence, yeah, a lot, a lot of people are afraid of numbers, just want immediate thrills. Some are just weak minded, lazy, or pussies. They far exceed the numbers of people who relish the kinds of games we do here. I've had people be impressed by my ability to do simple calculations on the spot. I mean real simple stuff, I'm unskilled in math compared to any rank and file real nerd/geek. You guys who even only dabble in it might as well be sorcerers to me when it comes to that. Couldn't tell you much about space/astronomy, calculus, anything beyond the most basic physics lessons.
 
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Thing is, this is a path that gamers today don't really have the benefit of treading. I grew as the genre grew. The games got more sophisticated and as well more impressive. So the new shit were the more sophisticated games. Better looking, better animation, better sound, voice work, more immersive, etc. Incline wasn't really a choice, just the way things progressed. Nowadays the hot new, better looking shit is the dumber shit. They have to settle for games that are "out of date" games if they want something more rigorous. Many can't make that leap, and I've seen this sentiment on forums..

The progression of dumber shit for its own sake is not incline.

But having seen all sides of the fence, yeah, a lot, a lot of people are afraid of numbers, just want immediate thrills. Some are just pussies. They far exceed the numbers of people who relish the kinds of games we do here. I've had people be impressed by my ability to do simple calculations on the spot. I mean real simple stuff, I'm unskilled in math compared to any rank and file STEM student. You guys who even only dabble in it might as well be sorcerers to me when it comes to that. Couldn't tell you much about space/astronomy, calculus, anything beyond the most basic physics lessons.

But the same dumb people have no problems using basic math when they need to make a transaction in Fifa or beat a record in a MMO. The new generation of cRPG players got lost in the noise of triple-A gaming. You will find many cRPG players that spent years playing these games until they found the original Fallout. The fact that they are growing up playing in consoles with uber-graphics doesn’t help either.
 

Atlantico

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Silliness is pretending that precise categorization doesn’t matter when the loose use of the term “cRPG” is one the key factors that ruined the genre. Just because you are talking about abstract definitions that are hard to pinpoint doesn’t mean is an impossible or pointless task.

I'd say silliness is managing to misunderstand completely what I wrote and go sperging about someting completely irrelevant.

Well, it’s a failed model from the point of view of making a decent cRPG, not from a financial perspective. Every game that includes co-op will sell more than genuine niche cRPGs that stay true to their roots.

Plenty of RPGs (popular and not) have co-op play available. Read. Comprehend. Post.

In that order.
 

Machocruz

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The progression of dumber shit for its own sake is not incline.

No, I meant the way things were progressing back in the good old days, incline was the nature of the beast. The RPGs not only got more sophisticated in many ways, they got more technically impressive presentation (for the time). The industry was growing in both directions at the same time. Now you choose the new, pretty, dumb thing, or the 'crusty' and 'outdated' smart thing. At the time i was seeking more robust fare, I never had to make that choice. I got to have my presentation cake and eat complexity too.

I don't know, that's what I remember. Maybe Fallout and Torment were considered by most to be ugly and unimpressive compared to a lot of crpgs that came out earlier.
 

Daemongar

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Current WOW has made leveling up to max leveling a complete joke, questing mobs are never in danger of killing you no matter how poorly you played or how mediocre your equipment is. Classes have been pruned to toddler levels with a lot of complexity and of situational abilities have been removed. Dungeons are so easy that you can mindlessly pull everything and AOE it all down. Buffs have been either entirely removed or baked into passives

Honestly, you could write a small novel on the number of elements removed from wow

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/3g8nez/comprehensive_list_of_all_rpg_elements_removed/
Really good point. Just for reference, I play healer/cleric in almost every game or mmrpg. Just my thing since 1st edition D&D. When WoW had talent trees with real selections, people obsessed over the fucking game. There was real engagement. People interested and guilds would go apeshit to get you to structure your player perfectly. However, when they moved it to one select every 15 levels or some shit, it became brain dead. The complexity was gone, so your thinking and structuring were unrewarded. They were sacrificing die-hards on the altar of maximum appeal.
 

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