Some thoughts on karma/morality systems in cRPGs

[Drog Black Tooth]

I believe that in most games that implement a karma meter it is essentially worthless and stupid since it can be "gamed" to be any way you want it to be. Do bad deeds and become "evil", do a bunch of whiteknight shit and wow you're a saint again. Doesn't make sense.

A broken person can never be whole again.

I'd make all karma penalties permanent and NOT accumulative. Say you commit an act of pickpocketing. Your karma will go down to -10 (and can never go higher than -10 again), doesn't matter if you picked the pockets of 5 dudes or 30. Your character still thought that it was okay in his book at one point in time, this reality will never change. Say, your character raped a woman, -20 to -80 permanent karma cap, depending on the brutality and use of force. If it was just a statuary rape then it was simply immoral and selfish, but if he brutally beats up his victim while they're crying and screaming then that's just fucked up.

Or what about killing a person? Can one truly ever erase that feeling/sound/sight of a weapon entering a human being's body and taking their life in the process?

Nietzsche said that as you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you. Once you've done/seen some bad shit, it's going to haunt you forever. Doesn't matter if it's PTSD or just sociopathy, your character has done something wicked, he can try doing whatever he wants to "redeem" himself in the eyes of the society, but that's only on the surface, deep inside he's already a changed man and can only try to play pretend to fit back in. Until the day he snaps again.

 

[Epsilon]

It is different by an order of magnitude how different people handle killing other people. There are many psychological factors and personality traits that determine how the person reacts, and the persons ability to cope with it. The people who handle it the best only have an issue with it the first time. The people who handle it badly, which is most people, never get accostumed to it, resulting in various kinds of psychological disorders including depressions, agoraphobia, insomnia, personality disorders etc.

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

It is different by an order of magnitude how different people handle killing other people. There are many psychological factors and personality traits that determine how the person reacts, and the persons ability to cope with it. The people who handle it the best only have an issue with it the first time. The people who handle it badly, which is most people, never get accostumed to it, resulting in various kinds of psychological disorders including depressions, agoraphobia, insomnia, personality disorders etc.

The person's feelings on the matter are mostly irrelevant. Once a thief, always a thief, etc. Ancient proverbs tend to be very wise.

 

[buru5]

Having played Fallout NV recently I noticed that I would gain negative karma from stealing from Powder Ganger boxes even if no one saw me. I don't really see how this makes sense, unless there's some sort of God-like being who sees all my actions? The player? Is stealing always bad even if the theft was against murderous highwaymen?

 

[hellbent]

It's an interesting topic and I've thought about C&C taking the place of point-based morality systems before. I'd like to see a western (ie, USA Old West era) themed game somewhat similar to what we see in the post-apocalyptic West in Fallout NV, but with deep, far reaching C&C instead of a karma "point system". You could conceivably follow any path you want, but there would be consequences for doing people wrong. The system could keep track of every shit thing you do along the way, from thievery to murder to dealing in stolen goods, killing livestock, et cetera. Eventually, you'd have quest lines cut off and even run the risk of getting lynched depending on just how rotten of a prick you decided to be.

I've always preferred that there be consequences for "improper" actions and potential rewards for "correct" actions instead of trying to win followers and unlock storyline paths by playing select-the-text or worrying about how many guards you'll have to kill or pay off when you return to a town where you committed "crimes" that no one could have possibly seen. Having a system that also keeps track of your character's sanity and affects your perception would be another interesting wrinkle, certainly.

 

[an Administrator]

I don't want games to judge my actions.

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

It's an interesting topic and I've thought about C&C taking the place of point-based morality systems before. I'd like to see a western (ie, USA Old West era) themed game somewhat similar to what we see in the post-apocalyptic West in Fallout NV, but with deep, far reaching C&C instead of a karma "point system". You could conceivably follow any path you want, but there would be consequences for doing people wrong. The system could keep track of every shit thing you do along the way, from thievery to murder to dealing in stolen goods, killing livestock, et cetera. Eventually, you'd have quest lines cut off and even run the risk of getting lynched depending on just how rotten of a prick you decided to be.

I've always preferred that there be consequences for "improper" actions and potential rewards for "correct" actions instead of trying to win followers and unlock storyline paths by playing select-the-text or worrying about how many guards you'll have to kill or pay off when you return to a town where you committed "crimes" that no one could have possibly seen. Having a system that also keeps track of your character's sanity and affects your perception would be another interesting wrinkle, certainly.

Seems like you're essentially talking about a reputation system.

I'd try to replace the -100 to 100 karma meter with two meters: humanity and social standing.

Humanity would start at 100% and all penalties to it would be permanent cap reductions and not accumulative, e.g. two -10 penalties would still result in humanity 90%, but -10 and -20 penalties would result in 80%. Obviously, all penalties above the cap are simply ignored, what does a murderer care about commiting a theft. Yes, Vampire: the Masquerade did have a humanity system, but they made it possible to recover humanity points by whiteknighting, which I think is stupid.

Social standing would start at 0 and have no upper cap, you can be just your average dude or a world known humanity rights activist. People essentially do good deeds so that the society likes them, this stat would reflect that. And the opposite would be true as well, bad things you do would reduce your social standing, all the way down to persona non grata or in your setting simply an "outlaw", i.e. a person that receives no protection from the law and is okay to kill on sight by absolutely anyone.

 

[Grzka]

Less a matter of morality systems (thought it still kind of is) and more a system of reactivity, but I've always wanted to see a "web of NPC's". Like, if you kill an NPC, some/one of his immediate family members might inform the police when he doesn't show back up or might go looking for the person who did it for revenge (the player doesn't necessarily have to know that's even happening, though; at least at first).

No idea if that would be hard to implement, though.

 

[buru5]

Less a matter of morality systems (thought it still kind of is) and more a system of reactivity, but I've always wanted to see a "web of NPC's". Like, if you kill an NPC, some/one of his immediate family members might inform the police when he doesn't show back up or might go looking for the person who did it for revenge (the player doesn't necessarily have to know that's even happening, though; at least at first).

No idea if that would be hard to implement, though.

Seems like it would be easy to implement, especially in a game like Oblivion or something similar, where NPCs already have complex set schedules that include interacting with others. You just add some trigger in there that alerts a guard if they are missing from their assigned schedule. But at that point, what happens? The guards are aware but what are they going to do? Start an investigation? That would be the hard part to implement, I'd imagine.

I do like this idea though.

 

[Cosmo]

...

What about people who follow a special code (non-violent anarchist thief Marius Jacob for example) ?
Unless your metrics about morality are absolute and depend on a metaphysical system, your idea can't stand on its own two legs.
And if they do it means you'll have to enforce your personal belief system on the players... Yeah, good luck with that.
By the way if you assume proverbs are the recipient of some kind of age-old wisdom that you could use as a solid basis, you're also wrong : they're broad and vague, and unfit to base anything serious upon.

Reputation systems are the best solution, unless, like ultima, the whole game is based around morality trials, and with, one might add, a frame of values that gets clearly spellt out early in the game.
The best you could do, since you seem to take Fallout as your first reference, is adding some sort of morality perks to this system, thus bringing a semblance of indelibility to the player's actions...

 

[Carrion]

Having played Fallout NV recently I noticed that I would gain negative karma from stealing from Powder Ganger boxes even if no one saw me. I don't really see how this makes sense, unless there's some sort of God-like being who sees all my actions? The player? Is stealing always bad even if the theft was against murderous highwaymen?

That's how it should work. Karma is independent from the reputation system, and it doesn't matter whether someone sees you or not. The fucked-up thing is that killing the Powder Gangers actually gives you positive karma.

The problem with morality systems is that things usually aren't black and white, and a game can't really judge your motivations, which can be just as important as the act itself. Let's say you kill a big bad crime boss — is it because of the greater good, because you wish to take his place or simply because you enjoy the violence? Is it as bad to pickpocket a beggar as it is to pickpocket, say, a corrupt guard in order to help out his victims? It's hard if not impossible to implement a system that would take all these different factors into account, and a game can never read the player's mind. Morality systems can be useful for encouraging or discouraging certain types of behaviour (like stealing every item in every NPC's house, if the game doesn't have an advanced enough AI to deal with such stuff), but they can also harm a game if karma becomes just another thing to min-max for the greatest benefits.

 

[Quillon]

By the way if you assume proverbs are the recipient of some kind of age-old wisdom that you could use as a solid basis, you're also wrong : they're broad and vague, and unfit to base anything serious upon.

There is always another proverb which tells the exact opposite of a proverb

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Ultima iV made the best blueprint back in the mid eighties: Eight independent meters with hidden scores, and some NPCs reacting to the player's deeds (like refusing to join the party).

Of course, due to technical limitations it wasn't the most reactive game ever, and being a plot-centric game about becoming an Avatar it didn't support less than perfect behaviour, but the potential was there. Imagine this same system supporting different playstyles, having paladins refusing to talk with characters without honour, thieves trading only with dishonest ones, religious factions accepting only the most spiritual members, equipment and spells only available for the less compassionate players, etc.

 

[hell bovine]

If we are talking about games, then tbh it doesn't matter to me whether the morality system in a game is relevant to real life situations; what it should be relevant to is the world setting. E.g. I doubt that a wood elf in ES is going to have a problem with chomping on his comrades, while the other ES races believe cannibalism to be wrong. In forgotten realms games you have deities of various alignments interacting directly with mortals. If an evil cleric commits a terrible deed, his deity might grant him more power and blessings in return; not something I would consider a traumatic experience.

I recall an interesting NWN mod (Excrucio eternum) that used the 'mind control' trope and made it work: you play a character that has commited some atrocious things, while under the control of another and now wakes up in a mental asylum. (there is more to the story, but I don't want to spoil it) One of the very few mods/games, where I've actually chickened out on playing evil.

 

[RPK]

Having a system that also keeps track of your character's sanity and affects your perception would be another interesting wrinkle, certainly.

wasn't there a cthulu pen and paper rpg system that tracked your humanity or sanity or something and every time you saw something horrific you had to roll to see if you lost some of it?

 

[hellbent]

Having a system that also keeps track of your character's sanity and affects your perception would be another interesting wrinkle, certainly.

wasn't there a cthulu pen and paper rpg system that tracked your humanity or sanity or something and every time you saw something horrific you had to roll to see if you lost some of it?

You're right, that was Call of Cthulu, an odd collaborative release with Bethesda and UbiSoft. It was one of those "immersive first person action games" as opposed to a RPG based upon the Cthulu PNP set. I never played it, but it incorporates physical injuries into the game as well as having the player's sanity "rating" cause hallucinations, et cetera.

 

[Elemental_wanamingo]

I think karma meter is a really bad idea as a whole. Things are complex and it is just plain disservice for the depth of the game world if all your choices boil down to whether your morality meter is below or above 0. It is just restrictive system because if you want to play one side then it can severely limit the stuff you can do in the game. Also it is kinda dumb if npc just knows whether you are good or evil.

But if you really want a karma meter then make it meter of how well people perceive you. It is not based on all actions but only those that the people know about. If you are a serial killer who kills and eats children and bathes in the virgin blood but nobody knows it then you are neutral. If you give money to charity and do good public things then your meter goes up regardless what kind of shit you do in secret. You can still game it but it follows the rules and the logic of the game world much better.

Also I kinda like the idea that these rumors and reputations should come in different values. If the police says you are a killer then people are more likely to believe that rumor compared to situation where some traveller from other country says you did a naughty thing. You could even tie it to charisma and make the reputations stronger or weaker based on how smooth you are with npcs. Similarly the more negatively people view you the more likely they will believe everything.

A simple good/evil meter is just dull.

Even if the karma meter is used for some good/evil spells I think some kind of special karma code might work better. For example in a dull system something like a heal skill may require +50 karma. Instead of karma why not simply make a definite list of things that allow you to use that spell? Do x and don't do y and the gods will allow you to use that spell. And make it possible you can cheat the gods too so you can play the game in more than one way. Like if there is a don't kill rule but you want to kill then buy some special magical poison or whatever that tricks the gods.

I also think the rumor/reputation system is very important and a key part of the karma system.

If we take realism as some kind of goal then the same act can have totally different outcomes depending who is the victim for example or who you are talking to in the game. Different reactions from different people. For example killing a family is generally frowned upon but if you are doing it as a mission for the local mafia then it makes it quite different to that group than if you just start murdering families in a town where people pay protection money for the same mafia. The karma just makes you an evil person regardless who you kill (although some games do treat this differently).

But even then the most important thing to fix first is the way the rumors and fame spreads. If you kill a child and nobody is there to see it then nobody knows. Or should know. A negative rumor like child killer should not just be a trigger you apply to character if they perform action x. It needs smarter system. Reputations need to follow some kind of rules. Who knows who. Who saw it, who does he tell. It should not just be a a piece of info everybody suddenly just knows.

 

[adrix89]

If you are going to make a Karma system. Make it by definition.

If you do a bad deeds you get bad stuff happening. Like you steal everything that isn't nailed down and you get bad events generated like someone would steal everything in your hose and kills your dog and house robot.
I particularly like the first Dishonered implementation. Do bad stuff and you fuck the world.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

I think that some criminals do find legitimate inner peace at some point, but I'd agree that some people are defined by their crimes

In an all-seeing system like New Vegas it makes sense if there is some sort of judgement from a deity or observing party (aliens or some shit). Otherwise yea they're kind of poor systems that don't work well

 

[Sigourn]

Karma system is fucking stupid because it tries to merge many different things that are not directly related to each other.

This is "Karma": the idea that if you do good things, good things happen to you. And if you do bad things, bad things happen to you. Karma is supposed to be a cosmic force. In that sense, it makes sense that New Vegas has Karma changes even when there's no one around to see you. BUT WAIT. Karma is flawed because in a game that is supposed to have "morally grey" decisions the developer is the one that forces their opinion about "good or bad" onto you. So it doesn't matter if you think "this is what will help this people" and can argue for it, the developers will always think you are wrong and the little devil will pop up on the corner of your screen.

What Bethesda tried to do is merge Karma with "People's opinion on you" into one system, and it simply doesn't work like that. When Obsidian separated the two, they ended up with the Reputation System and a Karma System (that barely mattered). Reputation is the way of the future. If you can't tell whether what you do is good or bad then you are a fucking moron. Karma is useless because it should be up to the player to determine whether his actions are good or bad. But the 3rd party has their own opinions on what is good and what is bad. So in that sense, there may be a faction that doesn't approve on murder of any kind, no matter if you meant good things by it, and if they see you murder someone they will react negatively to you.

I would simply:

- Strip away Karma completely.
- Overhaul "Faction Reputation" so that is more about the individuals and not the factions themselves. Some NPCs may be strongly opposed against you murdering anyone, some may encourage you to murder NPCs that are evil (from their point of view), and so on. It doesn't matter if I think killing criminals is wrong, but if my mother does think so, killing criminals will earn me her favor. Karma system thus is replaced with an individual reputation system that makes perfect sense.

 

[Black]

Karma as is done in many rpgs (Falllouts, Arcanums) is shit. It never takes into consideration the context of your actions, just the fact.

 

[laclongquan]

A sadistic serial killer who can find inner peace and being one with himself can be a terrifying menace to the surroundings.

Anyway, back to original topic:

Essentially, you make your game: there is no salvation, no changing your path once you embark on that course etc... A deterministic philosophy of a sort.

It's a dark game that I dont think will find many empathizers. If it's good enough for people to interest in, modders will answer the request: how do I fix my mess of a karma reputation?

 

[Alkarl]

I would simply:

- Strip away Karma completely.
- Overhaul "Faction Reputation" so that is more about the individuals and not the factions themselves. Some NPCs may be strongly opposed against you murdering anyone, some may encourage you to murder NPCs that are evil (from their point of view), and so on. It doesn't matter if I think killing criminals is wrong, but if my mother does think so, killing criminals will earn me her favor. Karma system thus is replaced with an individual reputation system that makes perfect sense.

Basically came here to say this. Wow, agreeing with Sigourn. Get fucked, me.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

I believe that in most games that implement a karma meter it is essentially worthless and stupid since it can be "gamed" to be any way you want it to be. Do bad deeds and become "evil", do a bunch of whiteknight shit and wow you're a saint again. Doesn't make sense.

A broken person can never be whole again.

I'd make all karma penalties permanent and NOT accumulative. Say you commit an act of pickpocketing. Your karma will go down to -10 (and can never go higher than -10 again), doesn't matter if you picked the pockets of 5 dudes or 30. Your character still thought that it was okay in his book at one point in time, this reality will never change. Say, your character raped a woman, -20 to -80 permanent karma cap, depending on the brutality and use of force. If it was just a statuary rape then it was simply immoral and selfish, but if he brutally beats up his victim while they're crying and screaming then that's just fucked up.

Or what about killing a person? Can one truly ever erase that feeling/sound/sight of a weapon entering a human being's body and taking their life in the process?

Nietzsche said that as you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you. Once you've done/seen some bad shit, it's going to haunt you forever. Doesn't matter if it's PTSD or just sociopathy, your character has done something wicked, he can try doing whatever he wants to "redeem" himself in the eyes of the society, but that's only on the surface, deep inside he's already a changed man and can only try to play pretend to fit back in. Until the day he snaps again.

I'd argue that raping a women is worse than just an extra 10 karmic loss of pickpocketing someones wallet, or journal.

I've always liked DnD's mechanics for alignment. A system tending towards law/chaos as well as good/evil. And it depends on how you see redemption. Evil acts are not washed away by good acts, but in the attempt to do good and redeem oneself, they move further away from the darkness. Unless you're using Karma as a means of reputation rather than personal moral values the character lives by. If the former, it could make sense, like New Vegas's faction reputations,which accumulate both negative and positive points and your standing changes but is still tainted by any former actions you've taken against the faction or current populace. If the latter, i'd argue a person can change over time and lament their former actions. Regret, torment and the desire to be different are some of the strongest motivators for men to change. It is not as if someone who was okay with pickpocketing or murder will always be, just look at soldiers who return from home who were formerly okay with killing in combat, but carry the actions with a heavy heart the rest of their lives. If anything, a better system for karma in this instance would be similar to the one I talked about earlier. Negative and positive karma can be accumulated over time and the result when the two are combined is the persons personal moral values.

Your argument also didnt take into account self denial that is often common among men and women who do terrible things. The whole "the villain is the hero of his own story" adage. This supposed evil person who is "okay" with picking pockets or murder might have convinced himself/herself that it was acceptable under the circumstances, like war, or poverty, maybe to save a loved one, etc. Morality is very difficult to quantify in a game, with how nuanced it can be. Like the common philosophical question of "Is it okay to steal some bread to feed your starving family?"

 

[Black]

I'd argue that raping a women is worse than just an extra 10 karmic loss of pickpocketing someones wallet, or journal.

What if she enjoyed it at the end?