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Blobbers

octavius

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When devs bothered to tap into custom chipset, Amiga v. shits on DOS v.

But his didn't happen much with RPG devs because they were clueless about Amiga hardware (blitter, copper, extended palette, hardware scrolling, sampled sound etc). This is a source of acute butthurt for me.

What do you think of Black Crypt?
 
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Lilura
i sometimes have had waking dreams or lucid dreams where i time travel back to mid 70s because my biggest wish in life is to have been there when wizardry and ultima first "shipped" so i could play them in their actual year of release on an apple II and have to then be stuck in that time period, never able to time travel back, and realize how happy i am making maps for the games and uploading to the burgeoning BBS's and making a name for myself there, in the time before interent was real... sigh.

Done that. The good ol days. I can still remember playing Oubliette on a university mainframe back in the mid to late 70s.
 

Efe

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Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,597
so what do you require of a blobber in bare minimum?
could it be without combat and just have riddles and crossword or other puzzles or whatnot? does it have to have a story?
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

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Efe
you could ask that about any video game. i recommend reading articles or preferably a nice book about the historical rise and fall of institutional casinos and then another book or other articles concerning what used to be called Game Theory.

it is very illuminating and applies to all videos and, interestingly enough, applies most specifically to the type of games so-called RPG-fans like. Sorry if i sound pendantic but you ask such a misleading question and well, best i can do is give you the same tools i have utilized tobetter understand Gaming, with a capital G, as in: why do humans engage in games? what are games? what are rules?

etc. Of course the more specific game theory books are all about that sweet psychological manipulation, so granular and so ingrained in the very foundations of every single academic institute that concerns itself with the creation of consumer entertainment.

...but to answer at least your question in some way: all of what you ask about is, for me, completely without meaning. the only thing that is meaningful to the player is how his behavior and his response is triggered and ordered by the authorial contract of the RPG he or she is playing. It literally has no relevance what has what when doing who inside where:

-- all that matters is that the underlying centre of all of the systemic interdependencies that constitute what the player would experience as "game play" be well designed, and by well designed i merely mean that they excel in whatever the true intent of design may be coming from the game's designers. If all the parts not only are working correctly together but also independently of each other then true emergent game play experiences may be had by the player, and thus one can without question say for certain that, the game is then: Good.

everybody reacts to different stimuli in a unique way, and this applies not only to physical stimuli but the type of stimula that is found in the experience of playing a video game, i.e. currently the closest thing we have managed to get towards achieving virtual realities (in the virtual sense of the word, not in the holodeck sense).

so, too long didn't read = none of it matters and yet it also does matter, everything, and it has to work well together. the only thing most people think about usually are what genre is comprised of what makeup... more so than in music (with its infinite mathematical possibility and the fact that music touches the same regions of the brain as religoin and philosophy touch); video game genres are completely meaningless.

a blobber without combat would be, by EVERYONE, be called "not a blobber", yet that has no bearing on whether or not i would enjoy it. does that answer your question? because if you want a genre definition google will tell you that combat is the primary part, and some other results will tell you that the explarion is the primary part, and yet other articles and websites will emphasize the importance of the management of resources (and "resources" includes creating and growing a party of many characters, among all of the other variables in the game).

there is a point where somethjing is a technically representation of an abstracted concept or experience, a bottle-simulation, and there is another point where the concept reaches it's conclusive state. A blobber with only rudimentary combat system, or this or that, or only EXCELLENT combat system and nothing more... we're not asking here if it belongs to a genre, we are now discussing something that's basically not a video game.

i.e. pull the lever on the bingo machine all you want but it won't mean it's an RPG.

EDIT: and i hate using the term RPG at the end, there; for one thing we should discuss the fact that there is no such genre as the RPG.

it is a template upon which all of the other elements from other genres are supported, nothing more.
 

Efe

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Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,597
good points tho i was just asking what would be okay as a least effort implementation people in thread would give a try. i liked stranger of sword city and said to myself, "should make one of these even if its barebones".
i was thinking of either codex riddles (stuff like "What goes around shilling infinitely?" - infinitron) or very simple (and probably boring) combat.
 

Iznaliu

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Joined
Apr 28, 2016
Messages
3,686
then true emergent game play experiences may be had by the player, and thus one can without question say for certain that, the game is then: Good.

By the way, aweigh, have you played any roguelikes? They are the true kings of emergent gameplay IMHO.
 

ilitarist

Learned
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- player's party members are all completely abstracted and thus end up becoming simply appendages, limbs, all attached to the "blob" which is constantly walking around through the game world mapping the environment, solving puzzles, defeating enemies, finding great treasure, avoiding deadly traps, and growing always more powerful and sometimes becoming better versions of themselves in the form of a "super" class.

You don't probably mean completely abstracted, but I still liked how party members had animated portraits and sort of personality in Wizardry 8. Less so in Might & Magic X, but still.

Russian translation of W8 couldn't have enough voice actorsso they had to improvise. Some of voice types became surreal: there was one impersonating Gorbachev and other concentrating on ethnic minorities.
 
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Dorateen

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there are also dozens of "hybrid" blobbers that are real-time but simultaenously both Wiz-clone AND might and magic-clones, and other shit, like for example:

- Demise: Ascension

Combat system is not turn-based but neither is it "real time"; i dunno how to describe it.

I dare say, it is a kind of Real Time with Pause. You can pause in combat. To select and prioritize targets, make tactical decisions like spells or items.
 

Doktor Best

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Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,849
I might sound like a heretic but are there any wizardry console ports that have automap? When im playing with my mobile phone i dont feel like painting a map exactly. I know this is part of the charme but im willing to give up on that in order to enjoy some wizardry gameplay while im sitting in an airplane or train or something. Soooo.... Anyone able to hook me up on that?
 

Pyreen

Educated
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Messages
36
I might sound like a heretic but are there any wizardry console ports that have automap? When im playing with my mobile phone i dont feel like painting a map exactly. I know this is part of the charme but im willing to give up on that in order to enjoy some wizardry gameplay while im sitting in an airplane or train or something. Soooo.... Anyone able to hook me up on that?


New Age of Llylgamyn for PS1 (Wiz 4 and 5 + an "arrange" version of Wiz 4) has an automap function.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
I might sound like a heretic but are there any wizardry console ports that have automap? When im playing with my mobile phone i dont feel like painting a map exactly. I know this is part of the charme but im willing to give up on that in order to enjoy some wizardry gameplay while im sitting in an airplane or train or something. Soooo.... Anyone able to hook me up on that?


New Age of Llylgamyn for PS1 (Wiz 4 and 5 + an "arrange" version of Wiz 4) has an automap function.
I've never heard of this PS1 phone before. Where can I get one?
 

Alkarl

Learned
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Oct 9, 2016
Messages
472
I might sound like a heretic but are there any wizardry console ports that have automap? When im playing with my mobile phone i dont feel like painting a map exactly. I know this is part of the charme but im willing to give up on that in order to enjoy some wizardry gameplay while im sitting in an airplane or train or something. Soooo.... Anyone able to hook me up on that?


New Age of Llylgamyn for PS1 (Wiz 4 and 5 + an "arrange" version of Wiz 4) has an automap function.

You could also check out Wandroid. Its extremely basic, but enjoyable enough for a low budget Wiz-clone. The English translation is passable so far.
 

Bruma Hobo

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Messages
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EDIT: and i hate using the term RPG at the end, there; for one thing we should discuss the fact that there is no such genre as the RPG.

it is a template upon which all of the other elements from other genres are supported, nothing more.

Yes there is, you just don't care for it. It's quite simple, role-playing games are adventure simulators, this is why seemingly alike games like Wizardry and Morrowind are still part of the same genre, while cutscene riddled Final Fantasy (which plays like dumbed-down Wizardry) and gamey loot dispenser Diablo (which plays like dumbed-down Telengard) are not, no matter how many experience points and loot their adventurers get.

Genres are not defined by mechanics or conventions, they're defined by goals, and while mechanics are there to achieve such goals they're not alone, among other elements a game's presentation can make a huge difference. For example, while Wizardry is an excellent RPG, a Wizardry clone sharing the exact same mechanics and challenges could become a poor one if it doesn't take place in a dungeon, even if the differences are just cosmetic ones, since Wizardry mechanics exist to simulate dungeon-crawls and little more than that. It could be a fun game, sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would be a good RPG.
 
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ilitarist

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Yes there is, you just don't care for it. It's quite simple, role-playing games are adventure simulators, this is why seemingly alike games like Wizardry and Morrowind are still part of the same genre, while cutscene riddled Final Fantasy (which plays like dumbed-down Wizardry) and gamey loot dispenser Diablo (which plays like dumbed-down Telengard) are not, no matter how many experience points and loot their adventurers get.

I don't see where the conclusion of Final Fantasy not being an RPG and Wizardry being an RPG comes from. I'd understand if you'd talked about choice in story and character development (even then some entries of FF would fit the definition), but I just don't see how one is a simulated adventure and other isn't.
 

Bruma Hobo

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They have different objectives, Wizardry tries to shape unique adventures through simulation, while Final Fantasy tries to tell its rigid tales, simulation be damned. Final Fantasy may had inherited lots of mechanics from Wizardry, and may play like it on a surface level, but it definitely hasn't its heart in the right place. This genre is, after all, about letting the player write its own story since its inception.

Besides, Wizardry mechanics are only appropriate for simulating dungeon exploration, the moment Final Fantasy steps out of a dungeon and tries to represent overworld exploration, NPC interaction and puzzle solving, the Wizardry mechanics alone become insufficient. Here's where Japan should have taken note of Ultima 3 and 4, Wasteland, The Magic Candle, etc., but as far as I know never did.
 

ilitarist

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They have different objectives, Wizardry tries to shape unique adventures through simulation, while Final Fantasy tries to tell its rigid tales, simulation be damned. Final Fantasy may had inherited lots of mechanics from Wizardry, and may play like it on a surface level, but it definitely hasn't its heart in the right place. This genre is, after all, about letting the player write its own story since its inception.

Besides, Wizardry mechanics are only appropriate for simulating dungeon exploration, the moment Final Fantasy steps out of a dungeon and tries to represent overworld exploration, NPC interaction and puzzle solving, the Wizardry mechanics alone become insufficient. Here's where Japan should have taken note of Ultima 3 and 4, Wasteland, The Magic Candle, etc., but as far as I know never did.

I see, this makes sense. I would argue that adding stuff on top of an RPG doesn't make it, well, less of an RPG - because FF and other JRPGs still remain Wizardry-style games, plus bunch of other stuff on top, kinda like SW KotOR has card game and races in it. But your point makes sense, yes.

I've heard FF15 has much more mechanics for overlord exploration instead of just walking and bumping into people, maybe it counts. Also I've just started Stranger of the Sword City and it's certainly a blobber and it tries to simulate an adventure as far as making an Ultima-style plot of assuming it's literally you who got into the other world. You are presented with choices in dialogues even, though they do not matter. Still as a Japanese game it throws as much exposition and lore on you as any Final Fantasy game, even though much of it is tutorial in form of lecture from NPC.

Coming back to your definition - excuse me for looking for the exception but I'm fascinated by it's simplicity and seeming rationality. You mentioned Morrowind as an RPG, I guess that counts Skyrim too as the real difference in that regard would be only probably absence of simulationist stats. As Bethesda puts it, it's not important who you are, it's important what you can do. Meanwhile there are games that on a surface look much more like a traditional RPG - say, Dragon Age Inquisition. It's overworld mechanics are not that far from Final Fantasy - when you aren't crafting and doing task list quests you're doing cutscenes and mostly fluff dialogues. What do you have to say about this comparison?
 

ilitarist

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Having problems with Stranger of Sword City interpretation of blobbers.

You see, what I liked about blobber-like RPGs (and those are not specifically blobbers but any gameplay-focused RPG) is that it's objective-focused. In a usual RPG you are driven by quests, getting to specific places or killing specific dudes. What I liked about Might & Magic X Legacy was that you had clear gameplay objectives besides the usual quests. Character development system gave you clear explanation of *why* would you want to grind and levelup. You don't just go grinding because it makes your party better in general. I want my fighter to get to master Sword skill because it would allow him to handle that sword artifact. I want my priest to learn Earth magic because it'll allow me to cast a spell of healing petrified status which some enemies throw at me. I can clearly see what stats do and react when I see that my mage is one shot so she has to get some vitality, maybe bodybuilding skill. My specific party build allows me to obliterate some enemies but I have problems with other enemies of the same level because they have, say, high evade while I concentrate on powerful cluncky attacks. And this is what I'd expect from blobber which is supposed to consist of this grind with quests usually being grand abstract goals, something you aim for strategically, not tactically. I like it when a grind is an instrument of fixing your party to being able to survive anything the world throws at you; in a perfect RPG, I feel, you are not supposed to grind at all if you really know what you're doing and you prepare for everything - and you grind when you see an obstacle you need specific tools to ovecome.

Meanwhile in most RPGs levling up is important for raising your general power level - your attacks are stronger, you have more HP, and grinding through higher level enemies exhaust you faster. You can't screw up your party more or less. In some RPGs, as you well know, your level doesn't even matter much as the challenge is adjusted to your level (still remember completing Oblivion on level 5).

Stranger of Sword City looks like the grind is there to be embraced. First, it has a system of characters dying - and early your characters can easily die in one turn. Then you have to go back to your base and put them to infirmary. There they spend some time and time only passes when you fight monsters. You can also pay money for instant recovery but it takes lots of money. So you get another character instead of dead one and go back to grind, and of course your party is weaker now so you don't progress and fight in basic locations. I had to do 13 fights for my first dead character to revive. Meanwhile other characters progressed very slowly and I got crap items and little money. Got my party back together, one-shotted by random encounter again - now I wait for 15 battles. To get those I've revisited first dungeon for 4 times as there are static places where you can fight monsters but those are quickly depleted. I'm sort of making progress but it doesn't feel like it. Besides characters have limited numer of revivals in them and you have to let them rest even longer to recover those. It may seem as if I'm just failing at the game - but no, it's explicitly stated you need spare party ready, those characters even bring some money in their spare time.

Second, the bigger problem: as I see it now the progress is very, very linear. Level up gives me choice of one of the character stats. What effect those stats have is not clear at all, and basic stats (attack, defense) are not clear too. Characters get skills and spells depending on their class and level with no input from my side. I can change their equipment but apart from choosing primary weapon (swords attack twice but weaker than spears, spears reach farther than powerful axes) I have not much choice there too: you just get the best armor that character class allows for. There are 6 slots in the party and there are 9 classes so party composition is what you'd expect: you have 3 fighter in a front row, healer, mage and some of the ranged fancy classes - maybe you can experiment here but the game says using some classes is for experienced players only.

So right now to me it looks like a boring grind just for the sake of getting enough levels to not be one shot on the first turn. Then you use your basic class abilities. If those are not enough to fight through beef gates - and at least for now there's not much of those so I'm pretty sure I can't fight beef gates more effectively - you just fight weaker enemies getting exp and maybe some equipment (though you quickly get best drops) and just wait till you strong enough, sometimes losing a character and having to fight battles for him to revive.

Sad.
 

Efe

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you need to change classes to have better options. change from dancers and use weapon trick on backrow. class change your backrow from heavy armor wearers (so they start knight and class change at lv1 to wizard etc) at lv1 and suddenly they are sturdy.
you get spell talents at specific wizard/cleric levels which lets you use some of spells while having other classes (i believe 5 tiers of talents overall)
say, you encounter lv 15,16 enemies in a zone and game randomly throws lv25-30 at you. you need to evade those fights and you actually have a %100 success rate escape skill for that. there are also some bait types each level like reaper in m.o.m. , just dont fight those until you are confident.

i agree stats are not that clear but stacking them gives expected results and for equipment multiple attack weapons are better at inflicting status effects and some are geared for certain classes (rangers get penetration with bows/thrown, most wands are geared towards mage/priest). i dont think anyone succeed with their first party in this game.. mine first couple were certainly trash.
 

ilitarist

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Thanks for the info, Efe.

It's confusing especially because the game feels like it's very hand-holding at the moment. You get very detailed explanation of some things (like ambushes or traps) and it feels like tutorial still - but you can meet enemies that can wipe you out. Yes, I use that escape thing, but it only works when you have enough Divinity and you don't have it after an ambush or other escape - in fact, that's how I lost 3 people on my party while following tutorial guide into the dungeon. Couple of hours after that and I've still hadn't progressed to meet the guy in tutorial dungeon because the second time some low-level monsters got lucky hit on my samurai.

And classes look so basic that it feels you can't go wrong with Fighter, Knight, Samurai, Ranger, Mage and Priest composition. I should have guessed Samurai would be a glass cannon, yes, but I don't see other way except adding another boring fighter.

You say class change is a good idea? I'm used to it being used on higher levels in games like that and no character yet advised doing it. I'm also stocking Fake Dolls but I'm not sure if they'd really help - is it automatic save from death on next kill strike on any character?..
 
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aweigh

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only problem with Wandroid is that even with the caveat of it being a simple 1-man phone game it is still simpler than the original Wizardry scenarios... which were 2 man games (at least the first one definitely was).

(and one can argue the coding was infinitely harder but that's off-topic).

er, what i'm trying to say is Wandroid is cute but for games-i-play-while-taking-a-dump I can just as easily emulate any of the Wizardry games on my tablet and still enjoy a better experience. I laud the author for his intentions but it's not enough; and it's not a case of cashing in either as there is no real market to exploit here, he is very much doing it as a labor of love.

as for Efe 's complaints about SoSC they are just the same type of gripes/complaints newcomers to Wiz-clones have. I certainly can't fault someone for having an opinion about them but I've argued with these type of complaints too many times to have the energy to do so once again here.

I'll just tl;dr and say to Efe that I share some of his complaints regarding SoSC's itemization and encounter design and most importantly, classes, and that in the past before I *understood* how Wizardry-style turn-based blobbers work on a fundamental level I also shared his complaints about seemingly arbitrary decisions (which I now understand to not be arbitrary at all).

I imagine he would also complain about having to go "back to base" to level up, which is not something SoSC shares.

All I'll say is that a Wiz-clone plays something like an RPG in a pseudo-iron man mode. Almost certainly not intentionally, for modern titles like SoSC, but simply because of the usage of a Wizardry-style blueprint in their design. What is most ironic about this is that when they stray too far from the Wiz-style blueprint it ends up throwing the whole game out of wack (like some aspects of SoSC) and when they keep too close to the Wiz-blueprint it can easily end up becoming a gaming experience that is an acquired taste.

Most codexers want "choice and consequence" and for better or worse I have yet to see an "RPG-blueprint" that so easily creates real, emergent choice and consequence for the player within actual slices of gameplay and not from branching story states.

My only real advice to Efe would be to play Elminage: Gothic on Windows PC (2.99 usd on Steam) or the Wizardry Empire 2: Legacy of the Princess "RPG Codex fan-translation" (game ISO available on the iso zone, and the english-language patch available in romhacking dot net or via the Codex thread). Why?

Because these two specific games are better representations of what post-2000 "Wiz-clones" (with one of the two being an actual Wizardry title) can do with the tried and true Wiz-blueprint but with some modern sensibilities and are overall better blobber experiences than SoSC which will not accost Efe with hand-holding or the skewed itemization and encounter design.

They also represent something SoSC almost completely forgot which is that after the char. advancement // party management // multi-classing shenanigans // loot and itemization // etc // of a Wiz-clone, the single biggest thing that will suck the player in is the map design, and frankly speaking, SoSC maps are so mediocre they might as well not even bother to be mazes.

The first thing a Wiz-game should drive home is that the real challenge is not the encounters but the dungeon itself. SoSC fails in that regard.
 
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aweigh

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i meant ilitarist, sorry Efe.

btw, ilitarist, I also very much enjoyed Wiz 8's "personalities". To this day I think they are the game's best designed feature. I have yet to play any other game, specifically including games with scripted narratives grafted onto their actual NPCs/companions/henchmen, that make my party feel more "alive" than Wiz 8's simple barks.

For what it's worth I consider Wiz 8 a terrible Wiz-clone, but a much, much better RPG than SoSC.
 

Efe

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did you back grimoire heralding example smt (topmost post on board)?
 

Emmanuel2

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i agree stats are not that clear but stacking them gives expected results and for equipment multiple attack weapons are better at inflicting status effects and some are geared for certain classes (rangers get penetration with bows/thrown, most wands are geared towards mage/priest). i dont think anyone succeed with their first party in this game.. mine first couple were certainly trash.

I'm pretty sure there are alot who did clear the game with first party + no inn substitute with very few to no single character deaths. You can even skip the grind until the time you fight
Kyo
. After that though, grind is required imho. The monsters are also designed to be 10-15 levels above you, going outside of that range means you basically did outgrind the current challenge.

And classes look so basic that it feels you can't go wrong with Fighter, Knight, Samurai, Ranger, Mage and Priest composition. I should have guessed Samurai would be a glass cannon, yes, but I don't see other way except adding another boring fighter.

I'm also stocking Fake Dolls but I'm not sure if they'd really help - is it automatic save from death on next kill strike on any character?..

The classes are basic due to how class-changing is one of the core mechanics of the game, you can clear the game without it but you're missing out on one of the major things that set it apart from your traditional wiz-clone aka being able to "equip" certain aspects of different class to your current one also IIRC the tutorial won't mention it to you. As for dolls, Fake dolls saves you from getting swallowed/taken away while Magic/Merlin Doll is the one that saves you from death.
 

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