How come no one but the people of the Codex

[Sykar]

What Mondrian does with his paintings is absolutely justifiable and it's your duty to understand and enjoy them.

Lol, are you being sarcastic? This is the most pretentious thing I've read on the codex. Our duty to understand some shit paintings? Give me a break.

I didn't. All I said was that I would rather stick with Skyrim over than PS:T, not that Skyrim is objectively the better (more fun) game. In other words: that other people say the game is dumbed down doesn't stop it from being more fun (for me).

May want to choose your words more wisely then.

On a somewhat separate note, you acknowledge Planescape as a masterpiece, but not Skyrim? Skyrim is widely considered a masterpiece by several people and gaming outlets, not that that means anything. I believe the point was brought up earlier that there is no real consensus on what a masterpiece is in the gaming community, if you ask the codex you'll hear P:T, Goldbox games, Morrowind, etc, but if you ask a more casualized fanbase you'll hear things like Skyrim and Fallout 3, which should tell you that it's mostly subjective.

Also, comparing video games to a painting is just stupid (not that you're specifically doing that, just in general), they both have completely different qualifiers for what is considered "good" in the medium. While a video game may be considered a technical masterpiece, it may not be very fun to the masses, and in almost all cases fun trumps technical prowess when reviewing video games. "Fun" should the the top qualifier for how good a game is imo, considering the goal of a game is to be fun, that's what leads to enjoyment in this medium. I think most people would agree with this. However, like I said earlier, there is a large degree of subjectivity to said "fun", which is one of the reasons why there's no real consensus on what is a masterpiece in gaming. For example, some may consider Ocarina of Time a masterpiece (and yeah, it's a fun game), but personally I'd say Twilight Princess is a better game in all respects.

There is no objective measure which proves that Skyrim is a masterpiece, unlike PS:T, albeit it is only masterful in the story and narrative part and deeply flawed in the combat department.
Yeah, the retarded unwashed masses celebrate mainstream shit, regardless how bad it is. This is true for all kinds of media, TV, music and video games, it is all the same in that regard.

As for the whole 'evolution' thing, OK, do you also like to say "ITS 2017" like that means something

It means something. It means games like the PLATO RPGs aren't acceptable nowadays, because they have aged and that type of game, in view of everything else on offer nowadays, just isn't fun anymore.

Old(er) games I fire up still once in a while for another playthrough:

Diablo 1 (not 2)
Deus Ex
System Shock 1+2
Vampire: Bloodlines
Civilization 1 and 2
UFO: Enemy Unknown 1+2 (XCom in other countries)
Sam&Max 1
Dark Forces and Jedi Knight
BG 1+2 (not ToB)
Elderscrolls 2 and 3 (modded)
ToEE
Might and Magic series
HoMM 1-3
Gothic 1 (graphic update)+2 (with expansion)
Arcanum
PS:T
etc.

Newer generation games from the past maybe 5 years at the moment? Now that is a short list:
Underrail

 

[Lilura]

PS:T only references and pays tribute to masterpieces in a pathetic attempt to prop itself up; it's not a masterpiece to anyone with an education that exceeds high school level.

 

[Raziel]

There is no objective measure which proves that Skyrim is a masterpiece, unlike PS:T, albeit it is only masterful in the story and narrative part and deeply flawed in the combat department.

Care to present this objective measure in a factual manner?

 

[HeatEXTEND]

everything we have said so far is completely logical.

If only; I might have bothered if that was the case.

 

[buru5]

There is no objective measure which proves that Skyrim is a masterpiece, unlike PS:T, albeit it is only masterful in the story and narrative part and deeply flawed in the combat department.
Yeah, the retarded unwashed masses celebrate mainstream shit, regardless how bad it is. This is true for all kinds of media, TV, music and video games, it is all the same in that regard.

Never said or even implied that there was some way to objectively judge if Skyrim is a masterpiece, or even P:T for that matter. I simply said that some people consider Skyrim a masterpiece, just like some people consider P:T a masterpiece.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yeah, but most opinions in general are unsubstantiated. Masterpieces usually have entire books dedicated to explaining why they are such and countless dissertations written after that to examine them in more detail. It's not simply a proclamation of "liking" them. You need justification to announce something as genius. "Liking" something or not is not a serious stance and is even irrelevant. Personal preferences or feelings have no place in such a discourse at all.

 

[Luckmann]

So you find watching paint dry fun? Ok, we get it already... sheesh...

Nope, but people have filmed a wall drying for 10 hours. Had it been Andy Warhol who did it, who knows... maybe you would be calling it a masterpiece nowadays.

Has Andy Warhol ever done anything that wasn't completely shit?

 

[Sigourn]

So you find watching paint dry fun? Ok, we get it already... sheesh...

Nope, but people have filmed a wall drying for 10 hours. Had it been Andy Warhol who did it, who knows... maybe you would be calling it a masterpiece nowadays.

Has Andy Warhol ever done anything that wasn't completely shit?

No, but everyone sucks his gay balls anyways because it makes them feel smarter than the rest.

 

[buru5]

Yeah, but most opinions in general are unsubstantiated. Masterpieces usually have entire books dedicated to explaining why they are such and countless dissertations written after that to examine them in more detail. It's not simply a proclamation of "liking" them. You need justification to announce something as genius. "Liking" something or not is not a serious stance and is even irrelevant. Personal preferences or feelings have no place in such a discourse at all.

Where are the dissertations about Planescape: Torment? And what would that be in the gaming world? Reviews? Is a high metacritic score the main qualifier for something being considered a masterpiece? Sales? If you REALLY NEED something/someone to tell you what games are good because you can't think for yourself or you're too lazy to try new things, then it seems like reviews and sales are the best qualifiers. In that case, Skyrim is a masterpiece and you should play it and enjoy it because a lot of other people do as well (has very high sales and great reviews), which is the same logic as saying "you need to respect this paint on canvass because a lot of other people do too!"

 

[Sigourn]

Yeah, but most opinions in general are unsubstantiated. Masterpieces usually have entire books dedicated to explaining why they are such and countless dissertations written after that to examine them in more detail. It's not simply a proclamation of "liking" them. You need justification to announce something as genius. "Liking" something or not is not a serious stance and is even irrelevant. Personal preferences or feelings have no place in such a discourse at all.

I am more than able to understand why Citizen Kane is still highly regarded to this day. That does not mean I should like the film, which is a different thing altogether.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

So you find watching paint dry fun? Ok, we get it already... sheesh...

Nope, but people have filmed a wall drying for 10 hours. Had it been Andy Warhol who did it, who knows... maybe you would be calling it a masterpiece nowadays.

Has Andy Warhol ever done anything that wasn't completely shit?

No, but everyone sucks his gay balls anyways because it makes them feel smarter than the rest.

I guess the difference between Andy Warhol and a shit computer game is that Warhol was doing it intentionally as part of a wider joke that everyone got cos that was the era he worked in, whereas people who make shit boring games tend to do so with an entirely serious demeanour and no sense of self awareness...?

 

[Lacrymas]

Where are the dissertations about Planescape: Torment? And what would that be in the gaming world? Reviews? Is a high metacritic score the main qualifier for something being considered a masterpiece? Sales? If you REALLY NEED something/someone to tell you what games are good because you can't think for yourself or you're too lazy to try new things, then it seems like reviews and sales are the best qualifiers. In that case, Skyrim is a masterpiece and you should play it and enjoy it because a lot of other people do as well (has very high sales and great reviews), which is the same logic as saying "you need to respect this paint on canvass because a lot of other people do too!"

As far as I know, no dissertation has been written about narrative in any specific game. There have been dissertations about virtual economies in MMOs like EVE though. If you can't think for yourself you get exploited by AAA companies, I think I covered that already, buying into hype and (most of the time) paid reviews is not the same thing as reading books on a particular subject.

 

[Popiel]

I visited couple of scientific conferences devoted to games in Poland (presented my research on Journey during one of them), and while a lot of themes were analyzed and a lot of papers were published afterwards, almost nobody notices cRPGs. Which is very strange, and led me to believe that they are all hacks not scientists.

 

[buru5]

As far as I know, no dissertation has been written about narrative in any specific game. There have been dissertations about virtual economies in MMOs like EVE though. If you can't think for yourself you get exploited by AAA companies, I think I covered that already, buying into hype and (most of the time) paid reviews is not the same thing as reading books on a particular subject.

Both are written by human beings with strong opinions on the subjects. Both are heavily reviewed and edited by publishers. I don't see much difference in the two examples.

Ultimately you've failed to provide a good argument that proves masterpiece objectivity, because an appeal to the people fallacy is well... a fallacy.

 

[Lacrymas]

Both are written by human beings with strong opinions on the subjects. Both are heavily reviewed and edited by publishers. I don't see much difference in the two examples.

Ultimately you've failed to provide a good argument that proves masterpiece objectivity, because an appeal to the people fallacy is well... a fallacy.

Have you never read a serious dissertation or book on any subject? What "appeal to the people"? Have you never come across a justified opinion ("liking" it isn't justification)? What are you even talking about lol. I have no idea where you are even getting "objectivity" from. Art is evaluated in an intersubjective manner, not an objective one. I have no idea what more to say.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

As far as I know, no dissertation has been written about narrative in any specific game. There have been dissertations about virtual economies in MMOs like EVE though. If you can't think for yourself you get exploited by AAA companies, I think I covered that already, buying into hype and (most of the time) paid reviews is not the same thing as reading books on a particular subject.

Both are written by human beings with strong opinions on the subjects. Both are heavily reviewed and edited by publishers. I don't see much difference in the two examples.

Ultimately you've failed to provide a good argument that proves masterpiece objectivity, because an appeal to the people fallacy is well... a fallacy.

I've already explained what makes one RPG more objectively 'monocled' than another. Hammering the word 'masterpiece' as if its some kind of linchpin to your entire point is labouring your already laboured point. Look, if the only substance to your point of debate is philosophical theory of the kind that has no logical conclusion other than everything in the universe is pointless, indivisible in quality to any other thing in the universe, then that means your point has already been lost, as you are resorting to the philosophy of defeat, obviously. I'm sorry if I'm being a spoilsport to your unending shitposting moment of heaven, but once your question has been answered and you decide to still keep banging the same drum then its a case of :acknowledge this user's agenda: repeated ad-nausea and itself becomes an exact replica of one of the exact complaints against shit games, that of mindless repetition of something that you knew was a bit crap to begin with...

 

[Sigourn]

I guess the difference between Andy Warhol and a shit computer game is that Warhol was doing it intentionally as part of a wider joke that everyone got cos that was the era he worked in, whereas people who make shit boring games tend to do so with an entirely serious demeanour and no sense of self awareness...?

I bet you are one of those faggots who thinks EarthBound is a masterpiece because it made fun of jRPGs...

 

[buru5]

Both are written by human beings with strong opinions on the subjects. Both are heavily reviewed and edited by publishers. I don't see much difference in the two examples.

Ultimately you've failed to provide a good argument that proves masterpiece objectivity, because an appeal to the people fallacy is well... a fallacy.

Have you never read a serious dissertation or book on any subject? What "appeal to the people"? Have you never come across a justified opinion ("liking" it isn't justification)? What are you even talking about lol. I have no idea where you are even getting "objectivity" from. Art is evaluated in an intersubjective manner, not an objective one. I have no idea what more to say.

I'm talking about your assertion that masterpieces are judged by large groups of people, if a lot of people enjoy or consider something a masterpiece (and write some books on it I guess?? ) then it can be considered a masterpiece. It's basically saying "the more people like it the more likely it's a masterpiece", unless I misunderstood your assertion? If that's the case, then what is your assertion? What makes something a masterpiece according to you? Who's the ultimately judge?

I've already explained what makes one RPG more objectively 'monocled' than another. Hammering the word 'masterpiece' as if its some kind of linchpin to your entire point is labouring your already laboured point. Look, if the only substance to your point of debate is philosophical theory of the kind that has no logical conclusion other than everything in the universe is pointless, indivisible in quality to any other thing in the universe, then that means your point has already been lost, as you are resorting to the philosophy of defeat, obviously. I'm sorry if I'm being a spoilsport to your unending shitposting moment of heaven, but once your question has been answered and you decide to still keep banging the same drum then its a case of :acknowledge this user's agenda: repeated ad-nausea and itself becomes an exact replica of one of the exact complaints against shit games, that of mindless repetition of something that you knew was a bit crap to begin with...

"Maybe if I keep attacking him he won't notice that I have no argument"

Pigeon holing something into a rigid rule set ("what an RPG should be") doesn't mean shit. Skyrim, which is the example here, succeeds in other areas that aren't necessarily RPG tropes. Something doesn't have to adhere to one specific genre perfectly to be fun.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I guess the difference between Andy Warhol and a shit computer game is that Warhol was doing it intentionally as part of a wider joke that everyone got cos that was the era he worked in, whereas people who make shit boring games tend to do so with an entirely serious demeanour and no sense of self awareness...?

I bet you are one of those faggots who thinks EarthBound is a masterpiece because it made fun of jRPGs...

I have no personal opinion on Earthbound as I've never even heard of it before. On the topic of Warhol, I personally wouldn't buy any of his stuff nor go to any exhibition of his works where I had to pay to get in. But I guess I'm capable of separating personal opinion and cultural heritage.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

"Maybe if I keep attacking him he won't notice that I have no argument"

Pigeon holing something into a rigid rule set ("what an RPG should be") doesn't mean shit. Skyrim, which is the example here, succeeds in other areas that aren't necessarily RPG tropes. Something doesn't have to adhere to one specific genre perfectly to be fun.

Oh, hey, what a surprise, Sigourn has already made this point and it was discussed earlier and resolved, I guess you're relying on people jumping into the thread having not read previous pages by this point?

Ah well, have fun...

 

[Raziel]

IncendiaryDevice

Going off by your post on page 13, many of the things you mention that make a 'fun' RPG are either lacking or not present in PS:T. Though to be fair PS:T is an outlier.

While you can objectively measure the inclusion of these elements that you've mentioned and their significance in a game to a degree, it's still dubious to bestow monocles based on those factors alone. Implementation is as important as inclusiveness of those systems, and I believe most of the subjective nature of 'quality' comes from that.

 

[Sigourn]

I have no personal opinion on Earthbound as I've never even heard of it before. On the topic of Warhol, I personally wouldn't buy any of his stuff nor go to any exhibition of his works where I had to pay to get in. But I guess I'm capable of separating personal opinion and cultural heritage.

I'm also able to separate personal opinion from cultural heritage, as well as understanding that cultural heritage is composed of opinions. I couldn't care less about what some people consider to be "culture" or "masterpieces". No amount of scholars will change my mind that some films and videogames, nowadays, suck. At the time they may have been awesome, nowadays, not so much.

Why do you think nowadays silent films aren't a thing anymore?

My only mistake in this thread, which I recognize, is this:

Videogames, just like films, are a form of entertainment. If you don't prioritize fun and enjoyment, you are a fucking idiot.

Because not every film and not every videogame was designed to be a form of entertainment and "fun". (Case in point: Battleship Potemkin) I still adhere by everything else, though: you can't force "good taste" onto someone, because "good taste" means nothing when it comes to having fun, which was the whole point of my post and my response to such an idiotic statement as "why do people like games I dislike? is the Codex retarded?". We all know the answer is "yes, the Codex is retarded because it doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion".

Hence why I said such things as "Fallout may be a masterpiece, but I would still rather play the more fun game". Do I think Fallout is a masterpiece? Probably, though it falls apart very quickly near the end of the game. There are many arguments to be made that let me understand why it is a masterpiece, but at the end of the day all of this is subjective.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

IncendiaryDevice

Going off by your post on page 13, many of the things you mention that make a 'fun' RPG are either lacking or not present in PS:T. Though to be fair PS:T is an outlier.

While you can objectively measure the inclusion of these elements that you've mentioned and their significance in a game to a degree, it's still dubious to bestow monocles based on those factors alone. Implementation is as important as inclusiveness of those systems, and I believe most of the subjective nature of 'quality' comes from that.

Yes, I would have thought it went without saying that the quality of the inclusion is more important than their inclusion in the first place. However, they have to be there in the first place to warrant inclusion in any conversation about the subject as without them people who specialise in that area likely wont even play them or include them in the conversation. Of course the list is not a complete list, I believe I used phraseology such as "such as" and probably used an "etc" as I usually do. PS:T did specialise in some important areas, such as multiple ways to go about a situation and interesting companions and NPCs that are effected by game mechanics rather than just writing alone.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I have no personal opinion on Earthbound as I've never even heard of it before. On the topic of Warhol, I personally wouldn't buy any of his stuff nor go to any exhibition of his works where I had to pay to get in. But I guess I'm capable of separating personal opinion and cultural heritage.

I'm also able to separate personal opinion from cultural heritage, as well as understanding that cultural heritage is composed of opinions. I couldn't care less about what some people consider to be "culture" or "masterpieces". No amount of scholars will change my mind that some films and videogames, nowadays, suck. At the time they may have been awesome, nowadays, not so much.

Why do you think nowadays silent films aren't a thing anymore?

My only mistake in this thread, which I recognize, is this:

Videogames, just like films, are a form of entertainment. If you don't prioritize fun and enjoyment, you are a fucking idiot.

Because not every film and not every videogame was designed to be a form of entertainment and "fun". (Case in point: Battleship Potemkin) I still adhere by everything else, though: you can't force "good taste" onto someone, because "good taste" means nothing when it comes to having fun, which was the whole point of my post and my response to such an idiotic statement as "why do people like games I dislike? is the Codex retarded?". We all know the answer is "yes, the Codex is retarded because it doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion".

Hence why I said such things as "Fallout may be a masterpiece, but I would still rather play the more fun game". Do I think Fallout is a masterpiece? Probably, though it falls apart very quickly near the end of the game. There are many arguments to be made that let me understand why it is a masterpiece, but at the end of the day all of this is subjective.

I would happily watch quite a lot of silent movies rather than some random DVD from netflix...???????????????? Really, what's you're major malfunction here? Whatever it is, I really can't bare it anymore, as with the other guy, I'm out, have fun.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

but I would still rather play the more, to me personally, fun game".