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buru5

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It's ironic how the most extreme believers in absolute subjectivity end up reproducing the myth of an independent and sovereign self who perceives things and judges them in a transcendent vacuum.

"I use big words to make up for my extremely small manhood" the post

Basically this boils down to you being a raging autist who can't accept the fact that some people have fun with games that you don't consider fun. You see "Skyrim" and "Fun" in the same sentence and you have a coronary. The groupthink you're displaying here is equal to reddit levels of faggotry.
 

Sigourn

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It's ironic how the most extreme believers in absolute subjectivity end up reproducing the myth of an independent and sovereign self who perceives things and judges them in a transcendent vacuum. All it means is that you are a horse chasing the dangling carrot, a slave to your most immediate responses - and, more importantly, an unwitting slave to those who know how to manipulate those responses.

*tips fedora*

The last irony is that since you've argued that any kind of effort to classify and evaluate culture is 'random shit' and you just like what you like, all of your opinions about how video games 'age' (whatever that means) is completely irrelevant.

Games do age. There's a reason why games have evolved. You may like that evolution or not. It doesn't stop it from being evolution, as technology brings new things into the table, things that weren't possible back then.

Once again someone tries their heart out to defend a simple game with simple mechanics for simple mindless gameplay with the use of the word 'fun' but without any reference as to what aspects are specifically 'fun' (and inb4 "I like the open world and the sex mods etc etc").

Why should I defend what makes Skyrim fun? Even if I listed the things that make Skyrim fun for me, you will disregard them as "those things aren't fun", because no shit, you don't find the game fun to begin with.

I have to say, honestly: it surprises me how desperate for approval some Codexers are, that they need to believe they are superior to others because they like certain types of less popular games. I don't see this need for approval from people who eat shit.
 

Tigranes

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You realise I said nothing about dude's supposed enjoyment of Skyrim, right, and my comment would apply equally if he said he loves PST and hates Skyrim

But I guess you don't comprehend the discussion, so you're straining real hard to figure out how to insult like a Codexer
 

Tigranes

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As for the whole 'evolution' thing, OK, do you also like to say "ITS 2017" like that means something

I can't be arsed going through the whole shebang, so let's make it simple

Is a game better purely because it is released in 2017 and not 1997? Yes or no?

No, right? Presumably you're saying the game has more pixels, uses rendering tech not available in 1997, or game designers in 2017 are better at their craft for x y z reasons, whatever, right?

In that case, presumably, you would defend X game as better not because it's released in 2017, but because it has x y z features that you would consider superior to x1, y1, z1 features found in the 1997 game, right?

So first of all, why not just talk about the actual things that make games better, instead of meaningless slogans like "games age and there is evolution"?

Secondly, if you want to say that the difference between newer and older games is so consistent and widespread that surely we can generalise and say newer games are more likely to be better, OK.

In that case, though, you can't really justify an argument like that with any persuasiveness by saying "it's all subjective and newer games are more fun for me." Nobody cares.

You'd have to come up with, guess what, some intersubjectively confirmable standards for judging the supposed superiority of newer games.

Which, by the way, is how we establish things like 'masterpieces'.

What you're doing is tossing out meaningless slogans (evolushun!!!), then when challenged, retreating back into an unconfirmable bubble where you can have whatever opinion you want (its all subjective its fun to me!!).

Don't mix them up.
 
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Sigourn

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As for the whole 'evolution' thing, OK, do you also like to say "ITS 2017" like that means something

It means something. It means games like the PLATO RPGs aren't acceptable nowadays, because they have aged and that type of game, in view of everything else on offer nowadays, just isn't fun anymore.
 
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buru5

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You realise I said nothing about dude's supposed enjoyment of Skyrim, right, and my comment would apply equally if he said he loves PST and hates Skyrim

But I guess you don't comprehend the discussion, so you're straining real hard to figure out how to insult like a Codexer

Why are you pretending that your post wasn't directly inspired by the fact that you cared about the content of his post and his subjective enjoyment of Skyrim? If he had been arguing pro-Planescape I would have said Planescape. The rest of my post applies to your shit. It was basically to point out that your entire word vomit was "fun isn't subjective and quality can only be determined by the masses", and if you come back with "no it wasn't", then you post has no point other than to make an edgy comment to prop yourself up above 'teh plebs'.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Once again someone tries their heart out to defend a simple game with simple mechanics for simple mindless gameplay with the use of the word 'fun' but without any reference as to what aspects are specifically 'fun' (and inb4 "I like the open world and the sex mods etc etc").

Why should I defend what makes Skyrim fun? Even if I listed the things that make Skyrim fun for me, you will disregard them as "those things aren't fun", because no shit, you don't find the game fun to begin with.

Oh what a surprise, no answer. Because... there's no need to give an answer apparently... but amazingly post after post that attempts to make some kind of point about the 'incorrectness' of other people thinking Skyrim is dumbed down vapourware. No offence mate, but you brought up the topic, yes, I do expect you to give some details as to what specifically is so good about skyrim beyond the vague and non-descriptor use of the word 'fun', which could be applied eqully to someone watching paint dry if they wanted.
 

Sigourn

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Oh what a surprise, no answer. Because... there's no need to give an answer apparently... but amazingly post after post that attempts to make some kind of point about the 'incorrectness' of other people thinking Skyrim is dumbed down vapourware. No offence mate, but you brought up the topic, yes, I do expect you to give some details as to what specifically is so good about skyrim beyond the vague and non-descriptor use of the word 'fun', which could be applied eqully to someone watching paint dry if they wanted.

Enlighten me: what is so fun about old RPGs? I'm dying to know, since you appear to have the objective definition of what a "fun" RPG is, so I can't wait to hear it.

I'll reply to your bait post anyways, though I will not be surprised when you say "those things aren't fun":

- I love running around hunting animals.
- I love entering caves and see what's inside.
- I love looking at the world.
- I love sneaking around and killing monsters and NPCs.

Among other things. Those I find them fun. And you know why? Because

adjective
informal
adjective: fun; comparative adjective: funner; superlative adjective: funnest
1
.
amusing, entertaining, or enjoyable.

There's no direct correlation between "something" and "fun" that is true for everyone.
 
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buru5

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Oh what a surprise, no answer. Because... there's no need to give an answer apparently... but amazingly post after post that attempts to make some kind of point about the 'incorrectness' of other people thinking Skyrim is dumbed down vapourware. No offence mate, but you brought up the topic, yes, I do expect you to give some details as to what specifically is so good about skyrim beyond the vague and non-descriptor use of the word 'fun', which could be applied eqully to someone watching paint dry if they wanted.

This is coming from the guy who just admitted that he judges games based on whether or not let's play videos of said games put him to sleep.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Enlighten me: what is so fun about old RPGs? I'm dying to know, since you appear to have the objective definition of what a "fun" RPG is, so I can't wait to hear it.

I'll reply to your bait post anyways, though I will not be surprised when you say "those things aren't fun":

- I love running around hunting animals.
- I love entering caves and see what's inside.
- I love looking at the world.
- I love sneaking around and killing monsters and NPCs.

Among other things. Those I find them fun. And you know why? Because

adjective
informal
adjective: fun; comparative adjective: funner; superlative adjective: funnest
1
.
amusing, entertaining, or enjoyable.

There's no direct correlation between "something" and "fun" that is true for everyone.

I'm not going to dismiss what you personally find fun, you can find watching paint dry fun if you want, go right ahead, but the things you list have nothing much to do with RPG'ing, they are just general gaming activities that can be found in almost any game, from survival games to FPSes to action games like Prince of Persia.

What makes RPGs 'fun' for people who like RPGs tend to be things like character building, stat analysis, interesting loot, wide and varied monster bestiaries, mazes, multiple ways to solve a particular situation, some kind of continuous narrative that holds everything together (where the plot/desire to complete is greater than the desire to fuck around for the sake of fucking around), interesting companions and/or NPCs breaking up the combat, most all of which is determined by gameplay mechanics and while RPGs rarely do them all right and well, most of them get some aspect right. The really 'monocled' ones are the ones that do get quite a few right and it's a pretty obvious and not-a-secret thing that is common-sense to most people:

Which is the more 'fun' sum to work out:

1+1
or
369+183

?

Do you prefer your Sudoku puzzle to have most of the numbers already filled in or do you prefer it when you start with only a few?

Do you prefer easy crosswords with clues like "It's a bird with a red breast _ _ _ _ _" or do you prefer a more 'monocled' crossword puzzle with the clue "Thieving bird!"

Oh what a surprise, no answer. Because... there's no need to give an answer apparently... but amazingly post after post that attempts to make some kind of point about the 'incorrectness' of other people thinking Skyrim is dumbed down vapourware. No offence mate, but you brought up the topic, yes, I do expect you to give some details as to what specifically is so good about skyrim beyond the vague and non-descriptor use of the word 'fun', which could be applied eqully to someone watching paint dry if they wanted.

This is coming from the guy who just admitted that he judges games based on whether or not let's play videos of said games put him to sleep.

Well... quite. I need something that makes me stop thinking about everything else in the world, but entertains me as I'm not tired when I start watching, then, as my mind shuts down I relax into a comforting sense of familiarity and drift off to sleep. Skyrim proved to be an astonishing sleep aid, I was usually out like a light with 10 minutes. I must have watched episode 9 about 20 times now and not once got to the end. However, with the others I tend to find I like watching them beyond sleep time as well, like while having lunch or waiting around, Skyrim never made it to that stage.
 

Sigourn

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I'm not going to dismiss what you personally find fun, you can find watching paint dry fun if you want, go right ahead, but the things you list have nothing much to do with RPG'ing, they are just general gaming activities that can be found in almost any game, from survival games to FPSes to action games like Prince of Persia.

Who said I found Skyrim fun because I thought it was a good "RPG"? It's a terrible one, that doesn't prevent it from being the most fun game I've ever played, above better RPGs like Fallout or PS:T.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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I'm not going to dismiss what you personally find fun, you can find watching paint dry fun if you want, go right ahead, but the things you list have nothing much to do with RPG'ing, they are just general gaming activities that can be found in almost any game, from survival games to FPSes to action games like Prince of Persia.

Who said I found Skyrim fun because I thought it was a good "RPG"? It's a terrible one, that doesn't prevent it from being the most fun game I've ever played, above better RPGs like Fallout or PS:T.

Then that is why people might question your purpose on a board of people who find RPG'ing more fun than action gaming... duh?
 

Sigourn

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Then that is why people might question your purpose on a board of people who find RPG'ing more fun than action gaming... duh?

I'm not the one who asked such a stupid question as "why do people like videogames I don't like", that was the OP. And what the OP, and everyone else here, need to understand is that some people play videogames because they want to have fun. The genre doesn't matter unless you are so anal that you cannot have fun with a particular game because it didn't live up to the standards of its genre, even though it may be a fun game nonetheless.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Then that is why people might question your purpose on a board of people who find RPG'ing more fun than action gaming... duh?

I'm not the one who asked such a stupid question as "why do people like videogames I don't like", that was the OP. And what the OP, and everyone else here, need to understand is that some people play videogames because they want to have fun. The genre doesn't matter unless you are so anal that you cannot have fun with a particular game because it didn't live up to the standards of its genre, even though it may be a fun game nonetheless.

So you find watching paint dry fun? Ok, we get it already... sheesh...
 

Sigourn

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So you find watching paint dry fun? Ok, we get it already... sheesh...

Nope, but people have filmed a wall drying for 10 hours. Had it been Andy Warhol who did it, who knows... maybe you would be calling it a masterpiece nowadays.
 
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buru5

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Well... quite. I need something that makes me stop thinking about everything else in the world, but entertains me as I'm not tired when I start watching, then, as my mind shuts down I relax into a comforting sense of familiarity and drift off to sleep. Skyrim proved to be an astonishing sleep aid, I was usually out like a light with 10 minutes. I must have watched episode 9 about 20 times now and not once got to the end. However, with the others I tend to find I like watching them beyond sleep time as well, like while having lunch or waiting around, Skyrim never made it to that stage.

My point is, maybe try playing the game? I find it incredibly dense to simply base your opinion of a game off Let's Play videos and codexer autism. If I'm laying in bed trying to sleep reading will put me to sleep very quickly, going by your logic games like Morrowind or Baldur's Gate or anything with copious amounts of reading would be garbage and unfun, but ultimately that would just be my opinion.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Well... quite. I need something that makes me stop thinking about everything else in the world, but entertains me as I'm not tired when I start watching, then, as my mind shuts down I relax into a comforting sense of familiarity and drift off to sleep. Skyrim proved to be an astonishing sleep aid, I was usually out like a light with 10 minutes. I must have watched episode 9 about 20 times now and not once got to the end. However, with the others I tend to find I like watching them beyond sleep time as well, like while having lunch or waiting around, Skyrim never made it to that stage.

My point is, maybe try playing the game? I find it incredibly dense to simply base your opinion of a game off Let's Plays videos and codexer autism. If I'm laying in bed trying to sleep reading will put me to sleep very quickly, going by your logic games like Morrowind or Baldur's Gate or anything with copious amounts of reading would be garbage and unfun, but ultimately that would just be my opinion.

Precisely, I could never watch a PC game as a sleep aid, not at all cinematic and often revolves around more time spent in character screens and various other UI screens than in action. Oh, and I did try playing Morrowind, I lasted about 2 hours. I also tried Oblivion, and lasted about 2 hours. But you think I should try Skyrim before passing judgement? And that just watching the first 2 hours and then stopping watching invalidates my opinion?

What other debating cliches you got nestled away in your box of retorts?
 
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buru5

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Precisely, I could never watch a PC game as a sleep aid, not at all cinematic and often revolves around more time spent in character screens and various other UI screens than in action.

I often watch video game series on youtube as a sleep aid, and often some cinematic adventure suits this purpose well, such as Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners or Bloodborne,

Umm???? Then why are you judging Skyrim based on this criteria? It's a PC game and an RPG....
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Precisely, I could never watch a PC game as a sleep aid, not at all cinematic and often revolves around more time spent in character screens and various other UI screens than in action.

I often watch video game series on youtube as a sleep aid, and often some cinematic adventure suits this purpose well, such as Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners or Bloodborne,

Umm???? Then why are you judging Skyrim based on this criteria? It's a PC game and an RPG....

No, Skyrim is a multiplatform game, which is modern speak for a console game with a PC port. As for it being an RPG, I'll quote Sgourn "its a terrible RPG".

As for the rest of your post, yeah, cliche ridden mixing of abstract lines disjointed from a continuous narrative which already explains your desperate point. I can do that too, look:

Why are you pretending that your post wasn't directly inspired by the fact that you cared about the content of his post and his subjective enjoyment of Skyrim?

codexer autism.
 

Serious_Business

Best Poster on the Codex
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The last irony is that since you've argued that any kind of effort to classify and evaluate culture is 'random shit' and you just like what you like, all of your opinions about how video games 'age' (whatever that means) is completely irrelevant.

There's a number of problems to all of this, I'm sure you're all aware. As you imply, the issue in aesthetics is that people deny that there is any kind of standards to judge a subjective experience because, well, this experience is meant to be the source of the judgement. And in a way, they would be right - something like a video game exists only as it is experienced, so, effectively in subjectivity. Otherwise, we can say objective things about a game, but these would be limited beyond the scope of an actual effort to evaluate - to give value. A game can have X or Y caracteristics, and I can have a deep analytical knowledge of games as an object, but this doesn't say anything about the value of the objet. An aesthetic judgement on the game cannot be a strict judgement that has nothing to do with personnal taste. Immediate responses are part of it all ; great masters know how to mold these experiences through analytical knowledge. Being able to take distances from immediate experience is not enough to appreciate anything, in fact, it would effectively mean that you are not connected to anything at all. Asceticism is a form of castration, after all.

And if one really has to be objective about games, one has to reinsert them into their culture - the objective (economic) goal of games is "fun"... fun in itself is an abstract experience that has no meaning other than itself and, by extension, its repetition : you want fun because you like fun and you want more fun because fun is fun. This is an immense tautology that is entirely idiotic, but so is existence itself ; the compulsion for pleasure ultimately has no other aim than reproduction, biological or social. If you want to really go beyond all this, you can regress into authoritarian tendencies, as the Codex usually does - we need a strong man to tell us lost sheep what to do, or God - or perhaps we should just entirely submit to barbaric and fascist impulses, kill off all the aliens, stop all civilization because it is all in decline, it is all shit, and it is just too much to grasp for our simple minds. Okay. The other option would perhaps be to accept that there is no absolute standard to judge reality and not cry post-modernism all over it. But this won't happen until you stop the compulsive search for simple answers.

Dark Underlord's motto, which is cartesian in nature - "Complexity is only simplicity multiplied" - is a good prism to grasp the Codex mentality - its whole cognitive structure cannot get away from the paradigm of classical sciences. It exists in a limbo, always frustrated that there is no single standard to judge reality ; as if this was a problem and not the very possibility for intricate intelligence to evolve and manifest. So the bottom line is this : you are fucked
 

HeatEXTEND

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That's the definition of what masterpieces are: random opinions of random people.

:deathclaw:

I'm glad you are a sheep that needs others to tell him what constitutes a "masterpiece" and what "doesn't". But I'm not.

I've only played two masterpieces in my life (ironically, both games fairly similar to movies and literature, respectively: Vagrant Story and Planescape: Torment). I will never consider Fallout a masterpiece, just like I will never consider the Gioconda a masterpiece because I just don't get that vibe from them.

:deathclaw:
:deathclaw:
:deathclaw:
:deathclaw:
:deathclaw:
 

Sigourn

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why bother ?

Unlike explaining why something is fun, it is possible to explain why you think what someone is saying is idiotic. Thing is, everything we have said so far is completely logical, and only a butthurt autist Codexer would insist on repeating stupid shit that falls apart at the mere attempt at logic. My diagnosis is "I'm butthurt games I don't like are very popular and my favorite type of RPGs is dying out", because it's basically the same diagnosis for racists and xenophobes and plenty of other ilogical behaviors: all of them are based on hate instead of logic.
 

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