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of gender and classes in rpgs

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Excidium II

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We are talking about a general scenario

A lot of Codex-approved character-building options only have situational awareness.
assume the following:

  • typical rpg setting of murderhobos in real world time period inspiration + magicks
  • human males and females

Because otherwise the discussion makes no sense.
 
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Drog Black Tooth

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Generally speaking, humans (and let's assume other humanoid/ape like fantasy races) tend to exhibit a certain amount of sexual dimorphism, as in females tend to have a smaller frame with much less muscle mass and a bit more fat, especially around their hips and belly (as they're build to survive the pregnancy instead of hunting mammoths and saber tooth tigers). So you could give them a penalty to all physical stats, except for maybe CON/END.

And then, at least in civilized societies, females generally tend to be the choosers in intersex relationships, so generally speaking most (hetero) men would (at least unconsciously) try to please an attractive female in hopes of mating with her. Obviously this gives her many advantages and a higher social standing even on looks alone. So... +3 CHA if BEA is at least 7?

But how is any of this politically correct at all?! Cue all the sexist accusations if anybody actually implements such a system.
 

Iznaliu

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lolno, women have worse reflex and hand-eye coordination. If anything every typical stat should be penalized but we are leaving to strength for sawyerism.

Women have slightly worse reaction time, which is odd, as biologically they should have better reaction time.

Of course, the average woman is smaller than the average man, so issues of dimension (length of axons to a limb, distance between different areas of the brain involved in perception and action) should give women an advantage. So this question is actually quite intriguing.

After looking through what literature there is, the only mechanism I could find is that in some situations, women might use different cognitive strategies in reacting to a stimulus.

Another fun fact:

For example, arousal state seems to have a very important role: too little or too much arousal is associated with much longer RT's.

However apparently men compensate somewhat:

Men tend to have larger diameter axons than women. Larger diameter axons cause signals to be transmitted faster up nerve fibers, leading to a shorter latency between stimulus and response.

assume the following:

What I was trying to convey is that many of the Codex's favourite RPG design elements aren't actually found in that many RPGs.

as they're build to survive the pregnancy instead of hunting mammoths and saber tooth tigers

Women also did shit like picking berries, roots, and other veggies; these arguably made up a majority of the diet. Meat was the equivalent of icecream back in the day.

so generally speaking most (hetero) men would (at least unconsciously) try to please an attractive female in hopes of mating with her.

The same applies the other way round. That's why it's considered sexist; it's a double standard.
 

Bladderfish

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It seems to me that you cannot accurately represent gender differences in a stat-based system ... because women have no real statistical advantages over men. (Did he really say that?? Oh the disgusting misogynist bastard!) They aren't quicker, stronger, wiser or more intelligent. They just look nicer. And have intrinsically more *value* than men because they have the babies. Could value be a stat? I don't know. Possibly. Interesting idea.

The Arcanum system was good, and I agree with Tim Cain that it improved the game by adding extra options (which is only ever a good thing in games), but giving women extra con just seems bizarre.

A trait-based system might be more appropriate. Examples: Great Tits (opens so many options for a woman it would have to be offset be negative traits for balance purposes); Fantastic legs; Will Swallow (limited, but could be a clincher in a difficult trade deal); Passive-Aggressive (I could never pick this as I'd end up hating my own character); Backstabber; Penchant for Backwards Rationalisation ("You never did this for me! Its all your fault!" It would destroy male npc's fragile minds); Conniving; Subversive ("Gender doesn't exist! I can be anything I want and men aren't superior in any way!"); Illogical (can twist conversations in directions they shouldn't go. Every married man has experienced this.)

Balancing those against the lack of male social traits would be more the problem, but I think you'll agree that a proper implementation would make a great RPG.
 

Vorark

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Remembered another one: Pegasus Knight class in the Fire Emblem games, it's usually female-only.

Fake edit: While I was searching around to confirm this, found a reddit post whinning about how gender class restrictions should be done away in FE, lel.

No wonder FE turned into shit weeabo waifu/husbando simulators instead of decent strategy games...
 

Luckmann

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[...]

Women have slightly worse reaction time, which is odd, as biologically they should have better reaction time.

[...]
Reaction has a positive correlation to intelligence quotient, too, which is the basis of some research relating to declining IQ since the victorian age, the result of which suggests that IQ scores has dropped rapidly since then.

But anyway, my point is that it's not that odd, because women weren't hunters or needed to have quicker reactions or higher reasoning skills. Women also have a lower average IQ compared to men, so the lower reaction scores aren't surprising.

Really, when it comes to these things, the only "advantage" I can think of is that women are more "even"; their average is slightly lower, but the spread is tighter.

Which also explains why men culturally are both knuckle-dragging fuckheads as well as the inventors of.. well.. pretty much everything, give or take.
 

Luckmann

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[...]

Women have slightly worse reaction time, which is odd, as biologically they should have better reaction time.

[...]
Reaction has a positive correlation to intelligence quotient, too, which is the basis of some research relating to declining IQ since the victorian age, the result of which suggests that IQ scores has dropped rapidly since then.

But anyway, my point is that it's not that odd, because women weren't hunters or needed to have quicker reactions or higher reasoning skills. Women also have a lower average IQ compared to men, so the lower reaction scores aren't surprising.

Really, when it comes to these things, the only "advantage" I can think of is that women are more "even"; their average is slightly lower, but the spread is tighter.

Which also explains why men culturally are both knuckle-dragging fuckheads as well as the inventors of.. well.. pretty much everything, give or take.

So... in new rpgs on char gen should limit women to average values, while men would have both genius and retarded levels of each stat? In Dnd terms 12-16 stat range
I dunno, I wasn't really wanting to suggest something in regards to RPG customization/balancing from a gender perspective, I just wanted to contribute to the discussion and be part of something. :hug:

That said, I enjoy the idea of gender-based bonuses and/or maluses, but I also don't feel like RPG:s need to be a realism-charged murder-simulator (FATAL, anyone?). Exactly what bonuses/maluses should apply is really a question of what system we're talking about, and I think that Arcanum for example handled it fairly well, as did the earlier Elder Scrolls games. Especially the latter handled it well because using Morrowind as an example, it wasn't just a question of male vs. female, but also about what race you were, because it makes perfect sense that different races would have at least vaguely different sexual dimorphism - the only oddity is really that all the humans should probably have been a bit closer to eachother when it came to the gendered modifiers.

In terms of most classical RPG stats, realistically speaking, representing an average cross-cut, men should be "superior" to women in almost every way, whether we're talking Strength, Endurance/Constitution, Agility/Dexterity or Intelligence; at least in most situations. Since this is all statistically verifiable and the differences great enough to be measurable, it could all be accounted for in terms of raw stats. There's some notable deviations from this, such as women that have birthed children having higher pain thresholds and so on, but on the whole, not much.

That said though, I just think that such granularity isn't exactly fun, and in roleplaying terms, accurate representation of real-life conditions is rarely necessary. I think it's a flawed argument to argue over what is strictly realistic, I think the most relevant issue is the differences as a whole and how different characters are created as part of that, which is largely how it is in real life as well; women are intrinsically different from men, and men are intrinsically different from women, and if one person were to actually go from one to the other they essentially would not be the same person anymore. Not that such a thing is possible either way; my point is that "Person A" isn't just "Person A + Boobs" or "Person A + Penis"; the sex is an intrinsic part of Person A. Person A wouldn't be Person A if it would've been born as a different gender.

I think it's more important that the differences are there than the exact nature of the differences.

So while technically questionable, +/- Str vs. +/- Dex is entirely acceptable. Especially since things like Dexterity is rarely just a matter of reaction times; women are in fact more limber and are generally both lighter and thinner than men. Since Agility/Dexterity tend to influence skills such as Contortionism, Gymnastics or Sleight of Hand, it can also make sense in extension; the fact that it also tends to govern reaction-based things like Dodge or Initiative is an issue of what you take Dexterity/Agility to represent. Another good bonus to give females would be in Beauty/Charisma, since these things often govern skills of manipulation, such as Deceive, Charm, or Diplomacy, which are all skills that women have honed in an evolutionary sense due to them generally lacking more physical characteristics. The issue here is that Charisma is often taken to represent force of character, poise or authority, and usually govern skills such as Leadership and Intimidation, which individuals of the female persuasion tend to be absolutely rubbish at; again since they are behaviors that they have had no need to exhibit in a grander historical sense.

So either way we cut it, it's hard to make clear-cut and with no issues whatsoever.
 

Lostpleb

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Why +Charisma? Men can use their sex appeal towards women much as women can use it towards men.
A woman that acts like a faggot will draw the attention and sympathy of every man in a 50 km radius. A man that acts like a faggot will get ridiculed and beat up. Pretty big difference in reaction right there.

it would be lame for the player to miss out on some content because of what is essentially a cosmetic choice.

If it affects gameplay and content, it is no longer a cosmetic choice.
It was kind of late when I wrote that post, so the meaning probably came off as unclear. What I meant was that the vast majority of RPG players see Gender as an afterthought; they're going to pick what they are IRL and move on the more interesting stuff -- like class selection. The modern chargen screen is very much designed with this in mind along with the mentality that MUH CINEMATIC CORRIDOR EXPERIENCE > replayability.

As a more widespread idea, the only way gender-specific content and stats could work is through a gradual shift toward Gender being perceived as a more impactful choice. Or in strategy RPGs where there are so many disposable characters that you can afford to bend the rules, somewhat.
 

JarlFrank

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Why +Charisma? Men can use their sex appeal towards women much as women can use it towards men.
A woman that acts like a faggot will draw the attention and sympathy of every man in a 50 km radius. A man that acts like a faggot will get ridiculed and beat up. Pretty big difference in reaction right there.

it would be lame for the player to miss out on some content because of what is essentially a cosmetic choice.

If it affects gameplay and content, it is no longer a cosmetic choice.
It was kind of late when I wrote that post, so the meaning probably came off as unclear. What I meant was that the vast majority of RPG players see Gender as an afterthought; they're going to pick what they are IRL and move on the more interesting stuff -- like class selection. The modern chargen screen is very much designed with this in mind along with the mentality that MUH CINEMATIC CORRIDOR EXPERIENCE > replayability.

As a more widespread idea, the only way gender-specific content and stats could work is through a gradual shift toward Gender being perceived as a more impactful choice. Or in strategy RPGs where there are so many disposable characters that you can afford to bend the rules, somewhat.

I don't think you need to shift it in small steps. Just make a game where all your character choices - including gender - have an influence on how the game is payed, just like Troika did with Arcanum. People will notice it while they play if it is significant enough.

Can't join the knightly order because they only take men? Can't join the order of priestesses because they only take women? Well, the player will notice right at that point that choosing a different gender for his character will open up different content.

It's not rocket science. If you consistently offer different and varying content depending on character details such as gender, the players will notice that a different character will get different opportunities.
 

Iznaliu

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Porn isn't designed to be realistic, idiot.

Reaction has a positive correlation to intelligence quotient, too

Sources, please (no, the Heritage Foundation doesn't count)

Women also have a lower average IQ compared to men, so the lower reaction scores aren't surprising.

The difference is very slight and only matters in athletic events where a slight difference can make or break things. (Difference in men's records etc. is due to other factors)

In terms of most classical RPG stats, realistically speaking, representing an average cross-cut, men should be "superior" to women in almost every way, whether we're talking Strength, Endurance/Constitution, Agility/Dexterity or Intelligence; at least in most situations. Since this is all statistically verifiable and the differences great enough to be measurable, it could all be accounted for in terms of raw stats. There's some notable deviations from this, such as women that have birthed children having higher pain thresholds and so on, but on the whole, not much.

Just because women treat you like shit doesn't mean they have less Intelligence. It's also fun learning about the Luckmannian RPG design philosophy: ONLY 1 MENTAL STAT! WOW!

women are intrinsically different from men, and men are intrinsically different from women

They are different, but not that different; there is still a lot of common ground between them. Just because you can't get laid does not mean "the FEEMALE is mysterious"; a lot of it is a social construct. However, these kinds of societal views should be represented in RPGs more; we have fantasy racism, why not fantasy sexism. E.g. man gets beaten up by woman but isn't taken seriously by society since men are perceived as stronger

Another good bonus to give females would be in Beauty/Charisma, since these things often govern skills of manipulation, such as Deceive, Charm, or Diplomacy, which are all skills that women have honed in an evolutionary sense due to them generally lacking more physical characteristics.

Men do this too, its just that they always say they've playing the 'female game' to get away with shit. Also men should have similar bonus vs. women

The issue here is that Charisma is often taken to represent force of character, poise or authority, and usually govern skills such as Leadership and Intimidation, which individuals of the female persuasion tend to be absolutely rubbish at; again since they are behaviors that they have had no need to exhibit in a grander historical sense.

There's also sexism at work here; women can try hard to lead but fail due to societal bias towards men (see: Clinton 2016 (this doesn't mean that Clinton wasn't a centrist piece of shit)); you get painfully close to admitting it.
 

Eadee

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Okay, this thread isn't ridiculous enough yet, let's bring in some biology!

One might think that every human has a set of 46 chromosomes, and only one of them makes the difference between a male and a female being a Y or another X chromosome. However almost all genes that are responsible for expression of either gender are not located on the Y or X chromosome, the Y-Chromosome acts merely as a switch that disables expression of female genes and promotes expression of male ones that are scattered more or less equally over all 46 chromosomes. That's why a proper hormone treatment can make a male develop more female features and vice versa.

So why is this of any importance for gaming? It is not, but none of this thread is, so I'll continue.

My point is, there's one Chromosome that makes a much bigger difference than people think. The second X.has much more genes than the Y chromosome and the both X chromosomes come from different people so they are not the same.

Some genes on the X chromosomes are silenced on the fathers X and some are silenced on the mothers X. But there are still some vital genes that are expressed from both X chromosomes so in females every X is only responsible for half of the total expression of those genes.

Speaking in gaming terms there are traits in which each X rolls a d10.
A male character only has one X so he is stuck with the result he gets between 1 and 10, every number having an equal chance of 10% to show up.
A female character however has two Xes so she rolls 2d10/2 (rounded up). Which means she also gets results between 1 and 10, but they are much more likely to be somewhere in the middle than on the extremes (a 1 or 10 is only a 1% chance here).

So if you use a chance based character creation you could adjust some attributes to be generated differently dependend on gender, not by influencing the overall scale but by flattening the bell curve for males compared to females.

Lets say a male Character rolls 3d6 for his attributes while a female has to roll 6d6 but divide the result by two.

There's a theory that intelligence is one of these traits. Explaining why extremes in IQ tend to be a bit more frequent in men than in women. So more male Albert Einsteins but also more male morons but a highly intelligent or extremely stupid woman is not impossible, just less frequent.
 

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