Development Info Tim Cain at Reboot Develop 2017 - Building a Better RPG: Seven Mistakes to Avoid

[undecaf]

All of this points to Obsidian trying to start a franchise of Skyrim/Mass Effect proportions that will secure the studio's financial position for years to come.

.....

That's what it sounds like, yeah. Although, that Feargus' "Obsidian's Skyrim" thing might be trying to reach too far at once. New Vegas seems to have been a one-off even despite its success and following, so they probably try to tap the same vein with what ever their new game is going to be; trying to lure the NV audience back.

 

[Lurker King]

They are also tools you use to solve problems in the game. And that's what matters.

Why?

Because it's a game.

Not good enough. There is an implicit simulationist-requirement in the character building of every cRPG. cRPGs are a specific type of game, and skills in cRPGs are a specific type of skills. They are not just tools to surpass obstacles like you have playing Pong. They are specific.

 

[Excidium II]

The simulation serves the purpose of the game.

 

[SionIV]

For once I'm actually sad, as it feels like everything that I found amazing and special in my childhood, were mistakes according to their creators. I spent so much time in the character creation, my brain full of ideas for new characters, writing down on paper how to level up and distribute my stats to reach perfection. Creating a new character and starting from scratch in the character creation was half of the fun. Am I a dying breed? When even the developers that I respected and held in high regards (Avellone, Tim Cain) are following the 'mainstream' crowd, I can't help but feel that RPG games today aren't made for people like me. While I love a great story (PST is my favorite game), the games I spend the most time playing are those that have amazing and addictive gameplay, and interesting character creation to fuel my addiction of creating new and interesting characters.

I guess that I should stop being naive, hoping for new games like those, and instead accept the reality that I'll have to keep playing the same old classics. I only have one thing left to say on this subject. Fuck you guys, you don't reserve my respect.

 

[Lhynn]

It should be impactful in some way. Like I want this skill because it's actually useful and not because it will give me a handful of different text strings on a replay where I can afford to assist borderline useless skills with metagame knowledge.

Some choices are not apropiate for your character bro. A lot of times it isnt that the skill is useless, its just that it doesnt work with what you did with your character.

We are assuming a context where the player isn't a fucking moron.

in that context why do substandard choices even bother you?

 

[hivemind]

trap builds

when will this meme die

 

[Excidium II]

It should be impactful in some way. Like I want this skill because it's actually useful and not because it will give me a handful of different text strings on a replay where I can afford to assist borderline useless skills with metagame knowledge.

Some choices are not apropiate for your character bro. A lot of times it isnt that the skill is useless, its just that it doesnt work with what you did with your character.

We are assuming a context where the player isn't a fucking moron.

in that context why do substandard choices even bother you?

Because the situation you made up is not what is being discussed.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

For once I'm actually sad, as it feels like everything that I found amazing and special in my childhood, were mistakes according to their creators. I spent so much time in the character creation, my brain full of ideas for new characters, writing down on paper how to level up and distribute my stats to reach perfection. Creating a new character and starting from scratch in the character creation was half of the fun. Am I a dying breed? When even the developers that I respected and held in high regards (Avellone, Tim Cain) are following the 'mainstream' crowd, I can't help but feel that RPG games today aren't made for people like me. While I love a great story (PST is my favorite game), the games I spend the most time playing are those that have amazing and addictive gameplay, and interesting character creation to fuel my addiction of creating new and interesting characters.

I guess that I should stop being naive, hoping for new games like those, and instead accept the reality that I'll have to keep playing the same old classics. I only have one thing left to say on this subject. Fuck you guys, you don't reserve my respect.

The problem is that an average RPG fan will play a well-made RPG without character creation (as evidenced by the success of Witcher, Gothic and stuff) but your average modern gamer will not touch an RPG with complex character creation/development.

Edit: Also the casualization of the genre in order to get more mainstream appeal is hardly new. You can argue that it started as early as Ultima IV, with super-casual character creation, simplistic and easy combat, no way to actually lose the game etc.

 

[Lhynn]

The problem is that an average RPG fan will play a well-made RPG without character creation (as evidenced by the success of Witcher, Gothic and stuff) but your average modern gamer will not touch an RPG with complex character creation/development.

This isnt true tho, a lot of people play souls games.

 

[SionIV]

For once I'm actually sad, as it feels like everything that I found amazing and special in my childhood, were mistakes according to their creators. I spent so much time in the character creation, my brain full of ideas for new characters, writing down on paper how to level up and distribute my stats to reach perfection. Creating a new character and starting from scratch in the character creation was half of the fun. Am I a dying breed? When even the developers that I respected and held in high regards (Avellone, Tim Cain) are following the 'mainstream' crowd, I can't help but feel that RPG games today aren't made for people like me. While I love a great story (PST is my favorite game), the games I spend the most time playing are those that have amazing and addictive gameplay, and interesting character creation to fuel my addiction of creating new and interesting characters.

I guess that I should stop being naive, hoping for new games like those, and instead accept the reality that I'll have to keep playing the same old classics. I only have one thing left to say on this subject. Fuck you guys, you don't reserve my respect.

The problem is that an average RPG fan will play a well-made RPG without character creation (as evidenced by the success of Witcher, Gothic and stuff) but your average modern gamer will not touch an RPG with complex character creation/development.

Edit: Also the casualization of the genre in order to get more mainstream appeal is hardly new. You can argue that it started as early as Ultima IV, with super-casual character creation, simplistic and easy combat, no way to actually lose the game etc.

The problem is that your average RPG fan in 2017 is a fucking moron. I knew 'casual' girls back in the days that played more complex games than the fuckers that think they're hardcore today.

 

[luj1]

What's with this trend of making CRPGs for people who don't like CRPGs.

Seems adding a drop of RPG in any game improves it in some way


Anyone remember No One Lives Forever? The grand-father of shooter/RPG hybrids

 

[i.Razor]

I don't care if it is 1st/3rd person game project. Time flows. In 1998 they were on the edge so why stuck?

If not Leonard + black isle/obssidian team then who?

 

[Gecos]

For once I'm actually sad, as it feels like everything that I found amazing and special in my childhood, were mistakes according to their creators. I spent so much time in the character creation, my brain full of ideas for new characters, writing down on paper how to level up and distribute my stats to reach perfection. Creating a new character and starting from scratch in the character creation was half of the fun. Am I a dying breed? When even the developers that I respected and held in high regards (Avellone, Tim Cain) are following the 'mainstream' crowd, I can't help but feel that RPG games today aren't made for people like me. While I love a great story (PST is my favorite game), the games I spend the most time playing are those that have amazing and addictive gameplay, and interesting character creation to fuel my addiction of creating new and interesting characters.

I guess that I should stop being naive, hoping for new games like those, and instead accept the reality that I'll have to keep playing the same old classics. I only have one thing left to say on this subject. Fuck you guys, you don't reserve my respect.

The problem is that an average RPG fan will play a well-made RPG without character creation (as evidenced by the success of Witcher, Gothic and stuff) but your average modern gamer will not touch an RPG with complex character creation/development.

Edit: Also the casualization of the genre in order to get more mainstream appeal is hardly new. You can argue that it started as early as Ultima IV, with super-casual character creation, simplistic and easy combat, no way to actually lose the game etc.

The problem is that your average RPG fan in 2017 is a fucking moron. I knew 'casual' girls back in the days that played more complex games than the fuckers that think they're hardcore today.

Trend started long before 2017. For example fucking FarmVille was coined as a "social" RPG. Once there's nothing holy left, every sacrilege is truly mundane.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

The problem is that an average RPG fan will play a well-made RPG without character creation (as evidenced by the success of Witcher, Gothic and stuff) but your average modern gamer will not touch an RPG with complex character creation/development.

This isnt true tho, a lot of people play souls games.

Character creation in Souls is extremely simple though.

 

[luj1]

There is something prestigious about a RPG game, so they are mixing it with dumb mainstream genres producing trash like Bioshock and Dark Souls

 

[Black]

The problem is that an average RPG fan will play a well-made RPG without character creation (as evidenced by the success of Witcher, Gothic and stuff) but your average modern gamer will not touch an RPG with complex character creation/development.

This isnt true tho, a lot of people play souls games.

RPG with complex character creation/development.

?

 

[Achilles]

As long as they produce a more traditional RPG every now and then I couldn't care less how dumbed down their next popamole 'RPG' is. I just want that fucker Cain to leave the genre classics alone and stop pretending like dumbing down games for braindead consoletards is some sort of natural evolution of the genre.

Yes, Infinitron, I am butthurt about this.

 

[Lhynn]

The problem is that an average RPG fan will play a well-made RPG without character creation (as evidenced by the success of Witcher, Gothic and stuff) but your average modern gamer will not touch an RPG with complex character creation/development.

This isnt true tho, a lot of people play souls games.

RPG with complex character creation/development.

?

It was more of a "games with character creation are pretty popular" among non rpg fans. as for complex character creation, how the fuck would we know? no one has tried.

 

[Chris Avelltwo]

This game will be much worse than Pillars. I can't wait to see the butthurt. Every cycle of decline is worst than the last. PoE is worse than BG2, T:ToN is worse than PS:T, etc.

What if it has good writing and C&C?

What's left @ Obsidian sure is gonna impress in that department.

Actually, since we've established that game developers have peak years, and all these people who are now well into their 40s or 50s are producing games that are nowhere near as good as their earlier games they made in their 20s and 30s, then couldn't it be for the best that so many of them have left Obsidian? It's not like they're leaving and the positions are being left vacant; Obsidian is hiring fresh new young talent to replace them. The older developers are past their prime, and little good can be expected from them anymore. The future belongs to the young.

InXile's recent failure with T:ToN can largely be attributed to their over-reliance on old washed-up geriatric farts like Monte Cuck and Colin McCuck. Brian Fargo's involvement was minimal, but he's in his 50s and maybe his recently announced retirement would be for the best. Someone previously stated that game development is "no country for old men", and they're right. As people age their cognitive faculties decline just as their physical bodies do. You couldn't expect a 50 year old boxer to have much of a chance against a 20 year old boxer, and that goes for these game writers as well. They were great once, but those days are gone now.

 

[SionIV]

As long as they produce a more traditional RPG every now and then I couldn't care less how dumbed down their next popamole 'RPG' is. I just want that fucker Cain to leave the genre classics alone and stop pretending like dumbing down games for braindead consoletards is some sort of natural evolution of the genre.

As long as they produce a more traditional RPG every now and then

The problem isn't that they're trying something new and making a popamole 'RPG', the problem is that they're saying that the things that made their earlier games great, were mistakes. They're not going to make any more traditional RPG's.

Mistake #1 - Steep Learning Curves: Tim thinks character creation in Fallout, Arcanum and other RPGs was too complex

He called it a mistake, a fucking MISTAKE. The only mistake was having faith in him, fucking tool.

 

[Lurker King]

The problem is that an average RPG fan will play a well-made RPG without character creation.

That's an oxymoron.

Obsidian is hiring fresh SJW pretentious artsy minorities that despise gamers and hate cRPGs to replace them. The future belongs to the young.

Fixed.

 

[Achilles]

The problem isn't that they're trying something new and making a popamole 'RPG', the problem is that they're saying that the things that made their earlier games great, were mistakes. They're not going to make any more traditional RPG's.

It's Obsidian. They'll fuck up their play at mainstream success somehow and they'll have to make cRPGs to keep the lights on.

 

[SionIV]

The problem isn't that they're trying something new and making a popamole 'RPG', the problem is that they're saying that the things that made their earlier games great, were mistakes. They're not going to make any more traditional RPG's.

It's Obsidian. They'll fuck up their play at mainstream success somehow and they'll have to make cRPGs to keep the lights on.

They'll never make anything great again with an attitude like that, and I highly doubt it will change.

Tim Caine turning main stream and Cleve releasing Grimoire, perhaps this is a sign.

 

[MRY]

Maybe Beamdog could help Tim make the definitive version of FO now that they've done the same for Chris and PS:T.

 

[Roguey]

the notion of time investment - RPGs were equivocally considered to be the biggest time-sinks, with a 50h long campaign deemed to be perfectly ordinary if not on the short side

nowadays anything longer than 20 something is automatically for nerds

Skyrim sold 30 million copies, the only single player western RPG to date to be among the best selling video games of all time. https://howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=9859