Development Info Tim Cain at Reboot Develop 2017 - Building a Better RPG: Seven Mistakes to Avoid

[Junmarko]

Lol.

This is more like No Truce With The Furies and too many artists in the room.

 

[Delbaeth]

Dead Gods is quite good and in my opinion the last good thing from Monte.

I agree, funny that it was the very last thing labeled Planescape I bought (to be fair, it was the very last Planescape thing I didn't have except Ral Partha miniatures and the rest of Blood Wars CCG) and thus, the very last D&D book I bought.
An end on many levels.

Be glad if your journey ended with "Dead Gods" and not "Faction War". "Faction War" (1998) was released later than "Dead Gods" (1997). I view "Dead Gods" as an glorious end of this "Silver age of DnD". Perhaps "Dead Gods" would be good as a background for a cRPG. "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" is viewed by many as the better module, but i think that this is only because RtToEE is more Tolkienesque.

"Sadly", I didn't buy Planescape modules chronologically, Dead Gods was pretty hard to find at reasonable price (the prices of any Planescape thing have skyrocketed since...), so it was years after having everything else (even the Torment and Blood Wars Trilogy novels).
I didn't dislike Faction War at first, even finding it interesting as possible way to begin a turnover in Sigil, but was saddened to see it was considered canon, ending the status quo "for good". It wasn't perfect so to me as a module it was good, but not good enough to crush all the Sigil meanings.
I agree with you on RtToEE, but I have to admit that I would have loved to play a Great Modron March campaign, I found the module funny, but had no way to judge it gameplay-wise and to compare to both other modules.

T.Cain is going more for a "Torment: TheCodex on NoNumbers (TToN) with the incarnation of sour the entropy of cRPGs".

I wasn't angry at Obsidian developing Amored Warfare, sometimes you have to eat. But if they are going to Beth's levels...
It could turn to something not bad, but since VTMB, there were 2 ES, 2 Beth's Fallout, although NV, 4 ME and 3 DA. I would be ok with something more like Alpha Protocol though.

I have also no problems with other kind of games if they are made by cRPGs developers, like Obsidian. But i hope for an interesting isometric cRPG with a good RPG System, a very good story, interesting NPCs and Enemies. And everything (AoD and Underrail excluded) was a let down since NWN2 MTB. Wasteland 2 was boring and i never had the feeling of playing an RPG. PoE was totaly uninteresting and the system feels for me like a MMORPG system. DOS has only a fun combat system. TToN is also not giving me a feel of playing an interesting RPG, perhaps this is due the writing or the Numenera System. And now T.Cain is speaking about 2 triangles and their permutations for RPG character stats.

Haven't played W2 nor DOS yet, I can't say that I loved PoE, but I found it a decent try to introduce that world, IF, and there's a big IF: IF you remove all the backer content. That was a serious letdown, it could have been so much more if the souls were taken seriously by Obsidian writers and not backers. The way Deadfire will have backer content too isn't promising at all. During the crowfdunding campaign, I backed a vision, trusting Obsidian. Having a name in the credits? Ok. But not for the childish "I was there. It's MY game now, look at what I did in it, I'm a officialy-Obsidian-writer-contractor-wanabee". Sure, a few had written decent contents, but the most... At least, Obsidian should have made a contest, as a DLC (so people playing the game would have the choice to include it or not), but not as pledges. The most fatal error of crowdfunding and of PoE.
Well, in the end I can't blame Tim Cain to consider his audience as babies trying to understand very basic things.

 

[Delbaeth]

FROM THE MAKERS OF FALLOUT AND OTHER CULT CLASSICS, HERE COMES ANOTHER HARDCORE CRPG

Spoiler

So now Bioware can develop a new FIFA and tag it RPG.

Can't wait.

 

[thesheeep]

The level of butthurt in this thread.
It is glorious.

 

[Achilles]

What's with this trend of making CRPGs for people who don't like CRPGs.

They're making action games that they arbitrarily define as RPGs. This way they can sell their game to the dumb masses and the much smaller RPG audience.

 

[Infinitron]

VTMB and New Vegas are fairly good RPGs with simplified combat, but these are in 3D engines. Its one thing to make a twitcher game when you have voice acting, graphics, and money, but no one wants to play an isometric with all the strategy removed and nu-obsidian's stupid text dumps. No one wants to play a click to win fan fiction novel, numbers are 2/3rds of isometric gameplay

Who says it'll be isometric? Multiplatform Unreal Engine game.

 

[Severian Silk]

What's with this trend of making CRPGs for people who don't like CRPGs.

They're making action games that they arbitrarily define as RPGs. This way they can sell their game to the dumb masses and the much smaller RPG audience.

Both at the same time? How is this possible?!

 

[Bruma Hobo]

The level of butthurt in this thread.
It is glorious.

Indeed, this reminds me of this other classic: http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/how-rpgs-were-a-30-year-detour.59806/

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Fenix]

There is ironical saying in Russian - Bucks/money defeat evil, in this case it is "...defeat... everything".
We was luck that Tim was young and uncompromising - that's why he did a good job and perfect game.

When you get old you looking for comfort.
Gamedev is a "no country for old man".

Those who want a more classical experience from Obsidian will have to look towards Pillars of Eternity II.

Best joke of the week.

 

[Makabb]

Suddenly Piranha Bytes and Elex look very good vs the geometric shapes

 

[Infinitron]

People like me and Grunker have been telling you for years that Tim Cain was no grognardy system design savant. He's just a guy who wanted to make non-linear RPGs with lots of reactivity, and for a while "character creation with walls of stats" was the only way he knew how to do that.

Codexers tend to think that people who don't understand RPG system design will always make systems that are simple and dumb. So if they once made something complex, they must be knowledgable and smart. That may be true for millenials, but it's not true for somebody who was born in 1965. Roleplayers from Tim Cain's generation designed games with complex systems because those were the inspirations that were available to them. I mean, Fallout is basically a GURPS knockoff. And yet, what was one of its big inspirations? The game where my portrait is from, Star Control 2, a non-RPG with no character creation.

 

[Makabb]

Fallout is more than Tim Cain though, it's a group effort by Tim Cain, Feargus, Leonard Boyarsky, Christopher Taylor, Mark O'Green, Chris Jones and others

 

[Black]

I can (barely) stomach your spam you call newsposting but keep your opinions to yourself, jew.

 

[Latro]

Finally, Tim Cain has taken the black pill and has decided to create a VIDEOGAME for RETARDED BABIES, because only RETARDED BABIES PLAY VIDEOGAMES!

Put down the fucking mouse, the shit-encrusted joystick, and throw away the cum-covered keyboard. The FUTURE of RPGs is playing with triangles on your IPad as you go through space doing dumb shit for fucking idiots. Put the game down and put the gun to your temple you idiots!!!!

 

[Makabb]

Finally, Tim Cain has taken the black pill and has decided to create a VIDEOGAME for RETARDED BABIES, because only RETARDED BABIES PLAY VIDEOGAMES!

Put down the fucking mouse, the shit-encrusted joystick, and throw away the cum-covered keyboard. The FUTURE of RPGs is playing with triangles on your IPad as you go through space doing dumb shit for fucking idiots. Put the game down and put the gun to your temple you idiots!!!!

are you having a seizure ?

 

[l3loodAngel]

Codexers tend to think that people who don't understand RPG system design will always make systems that are simple and dumb. So if they once made something complex, they must be knowledgable and smart. That may be true for millenials, but it's not true for somebody who was born in 1965. Roleplayers from Tim Cain's generation designed games with complex systems because those were the inspirations that were available to them. I mean, Fallout is basically a GURPS knockoff. And one of its big inspirations? The game where my portrait is from, Star Control 2, a non-RPG with no character creation.

How does character creation makes you feel? How do stats smell?

 

[Junmarko]

 

[decaf]

So, what's he gonna make? STALKER or Escape From Tarkov? Those had no chargen and no attributes, everything was player skill?

A story-based RPG hybrid like you smashed an adventure game with an RPG? No learning curve, no numbahs, no character skill, no linearity, reactive... Like a Telltale game that wasn't made by Telltale Games.

Mistake #5 - Forcing Linearity
Mistake #6 - Being Non-Reactive

Also pretty much every game ever.

Mistake #7 - Telling Horrible Stories: Tim uses this to emphasize again that games are not movies. Not every character in a game has to be important or advance the plot.

Sounds like it'll need extra development time.

 

[Davaris]

People like me and Grunker have been telling you for years that Tim Cain was no grognardy system design savant. He's just a guy who wanted to make non-linear RPGs with lots of reactivity, and for a while "character creation with walls of stats" was the only way he knew how to do that.

Codexers tend to think that people who don't understand RPG system design will always make systems that are simple and dumb. So if they once made something complex, they must be knowledgable and smart. That may be true for millenials, but it's not true for somebody who was born in 1965. Roleplayers from Tim Cain's generation designed games with complex systems because those were the inspirations that were available to them. I mean, Fallout is basically a GURPS knockoff. And one of its big inspirations? The game where my portrait is from, Star Control 2, a non-RPG with no character creation.

Of course it was a GURPS knockoff, since it was GURPS until they lost the license. Then they had to scramble to invent and insert new rules in almost no time, so you can't say a lot of thought went into it. Tim said the Perks were invented in something like two days and put in two weeks. They were not designed by Tim and were only included, because Fargo said the game needed something extra!

Fallout is more than Tim Cain though, it's a group effort by Tim Cain, Feargus, Leonard Boyarsky, Christopher Taylor, Mark O'Green, Chris Jones and others

Like the Beatles were great as a group, if you like that kind of thing. Apart they were awful like McCartney and Ringo. Ordinary like Harrison and okay sometimes like Lennon.

 

[Makabb]

Like the Beatles were great as a group, if you like that kind of thing. Apart they were awful like McCartney and Ringo. Ordinary like Harrison and okay sometimes like Lennon.

That's why we won't have the same game as Fallout 1/2 unless the same people will make it again

 

[Davaris]

Like the Beatles were great as a group, if you like that kind of thing. Apart they were awful like McCartney and Ringo. Ordinary like Harrison and okay sometimes like Lennon.

That's why we won't have the same game as Fallout 1/2 unless the same people will make it again

And only if they are made young again and transported back to the 1990s. lol

For me Fallout ended at 1. Fallout 2 felt off right from the start, because there were different people with their fingers in the pie.

 

[mondblut]

Mistake #0 - employing burnout has-beens who hadn't created anything noteworthy for the last 15 years.

 

[Marten Broadcloak]

That's why we won't have the same game as Fallout 1/2 unless the same people will make it again

Christ. I know that for almost 20 years you had to say something along those lines to be among the kool kids, but how can you keep saying that the year after we got Underrail and Fallout 1.5 Resurrection? That's utterly stupid.

 

[mondblut]

This takes the SPECIAL system to a whole 'nother level.

It always hovered somewhere near, tbh. Always about cool factor, never about the system. They just couldn't nail button-awesome exactly right back in 90s, and had to stuff some actual game in the leaking holes.