Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Giving PoE another chance

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
I'm playing now for the first time on PotD. The difficulty feels about right - not too hard, but not too easy. Can't really imagine playing on the lower difficulties. Though the difficulty can be fairly variable - every so often, I run into an encounter (Temple of Eothas and the lighthouse come to mind) that are much more difficult than the surrounding content, which is good.

Not sure I understand the complaint about trash mobs - there actually seem to be fewer of them than in most RPG's. I'm in Defiance Bay now (and I think I've finished most of the quests there), and most of the fights have been with against other parties that use a variety of special abilities. I guess if you kept running off the path in the wilderness or picked the combat option for some quests you'd be fighting a lot more encounters, but deciding to play that way and then complaining about it seems silly. Not sure if this is a big change from pre-3.0 or not.

I looked at some of the comments people made about the game here, but it seemed pretty clear a lot of people were playing on lower difficulty levels (Codex gonna Codex I guess). Also took a glance at the Roxxor review but it seems like he didn't understand the game (talking about how there's nothing like the hold person spell when there's a paralyze spell, talking about how healing endurance takes away health that counts, etc.). I get the impression a lot of people were complaining about it not being BG instead of actually learning the new systems (and with the old excuse of "higher difficulties aren't more challenging, they're just more tedious").

At one point I was considering giving up because I grew tired of the lore dumps and some of the poorer writing. It's gotten better though. The writing overall just feels kind of inconsistent, like it could use a good editor or two. The lore's actually kind of interesting, the lore dumps not so much.

The puzzles are nice, even though they're not so common. Though I really appreciate the way the game doesn't broadcast the answers as much as others would.

Overall a pretty good game. I think I'm enjoying it more than BG 1 and 2 (combat is much better, to say the least). I'll see if the quality of the rest of the game holds up.

Oh, what's a good way to keep from being overleveled from The White March? Save it for the end, and turn on level scaling?
 
Self-Ejected

vivec

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
1,149
Temple of Eothas is almost all Trash Mobs only exclusively.
 

Bonerbill

Augur
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
302
Location
North Carolina
Not sure I understand the complaint about trash mobs - there actually seem to be fewer of them than in most RPG's. I'm in Defiance Bay now (and I think I've finished most of the quests there), and most of the fights have been with against other parties that use a variety of special abilities. I guess if you kept running off the path in the wilderness or picked the combat option for some quests you'd be fighting a lot more encounters, but deciding to play that way and then complaining about it seems silly. Not sure if this is a big change from pre-3.0 or not.

The number of trash mobs were significantly reduced. I remember some wilderness areas have a lot of them, but now they barely have any.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
Temple of Eothas is almost all Trash Mobs only exclusively.

The first time you play the game, the Temple of Eothas serves as a good introduction to advanced combat mechanics. Up until that point, you fought bandits, wolves, oozes, spiders and a couple of skuldraks - none of which required too much strategy or planning to defeat.

And then you get to the second level of the Temple where, for the first time, you encounter an enemy that can teleport (frequently going for your squishy back row casters and archers), is highly resistant to many types of attack, and can fuck you up if you don't know what you're doing.

It's the first location (that a fresh player is most likely to explore) where the differences between the combat in the IE games and PoE become apparent.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,533
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Temple of Eothas also introduced higher level mobs (Skuldr Kings, bigger blobs, Phantoms). Moreover, Temple of Eothas utilized the Watcher's ability to flesh out what happened to the priests and provided background for Eder (Eder describing the coming of age ceremony, where you descend into a dark temple, reflect on bad deeds, and emerge to find your friends and family waiting by the candles). I wish Obsidian could have kept that same pace, difficulty, and use of Watcher abilities for the rest of vanilla PoE content. The Temple of Skaen felt like an eternity, although it did have an okay boss fight.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
Moreover, Temple of Eothas utilized the Watcher's ability to flesh out what happened to the priests

I excluded that part because it's more likely the player will first use his Watcher abilities to solve past crimes in Valewood's Bear Cave.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,533
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
I tend to forget that one. If only because I found the conclusion so...eh.

With the Temple of Eothas, the descriptions were rather vivid, especially the description about thirst and cannibalism.
 

AngryKobold

Arcane
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
534
I spent wasted fifteen minutes on reading the changelog of 3.0. Once I got through, resignation and bitterness overwhelmed me. Interrupted download from gog at 50%, decided to never run it again.

Boring plot aside, the game has literally nothing to offer when you finished it once.
 

pippin

Guest
Patches and DLCs bring games to what was supposed to be release state tbh fam
 

Barbarian

Arcane
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
7,307
From all the games I played and enjoyed, the only one consistently made worst by patches and dlcs that I am aware of is Crusader Kings 2.

But then I don't play nearly as many games as most of the locals though. Whatever I guess.
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I spent wasted fifteen minutes on reading the changelog of 3.0. Once I got through, resignation and bitterness overwhelmed me. Interrupted download from gog at 50%, decided to never run it again.

Boring plot aside, the game has literally nothing to offer when you finished it once.

The White March expansions do add some of the best game content, though.
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
I didn't think the temple of Eothas was bad. It's only two levels, has a variety of enemies, and it represents a nice difficulty spike from the surrounding content (I ended up leaving it for a bit and coming back to it later). If you're trying to stretch out your rests and not return to the surface, it's fun trying to stretch out your resources ("Eh, let's see, my tank's down to 25% with burn wounds, I have 2 level 1 and 1 level 2 mage spells and 3 level 2 priest spells left - can I take out another group of shadows?"). And the bell puzzle was a nice addition - not difficult, but better than anything I remember in BG (and I appreciate that the answer wasn't telegraphed).

I also wonder how much of the fighting in the Eothas temple could be skipped with scouting (and perhaps paying attention to some of the memories).
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
I would've put a point-of-no-return on the second level of Eothas' temple on PotD (after the bell puzzle for example). Otherwise you can just backtrack a bit and rest in the convenient inn that is 5 seconds away from the entrance. One of the high points of Swordflight was the point-of-no-return in the biggest dungeon. It ramped up tension perfectly. It tests your strategical thinking instead of only the tactical, which, unfortunately, PoE2 seems to be going for.
 
Self-Ejected

Barnabas

Self-Ejected
Patron
Shitposter
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Messages
718
Location
USA
I don't understand the hate for trash mobs. Do ppl really want to go from boss to boss with nothing in between?
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
I don't understand the hate for trash mobs. Do ppl really want to go from boss to boss with nothing in between?

I don't think most people would mind trash mobs if they didn't make up the vast majority of the game's encounters.

There's nothing wrong with having the occasional group of enemies you can easily desolate without trying too hard (ego-stroking the player from time to time is not a bad thing), but wave after wave of enemies with identical composition, gear, abilities, and tactics can get old fast.

That's why one of the best-received encounters in the entire game comes from TWM:

the group of kobolds that attacks you in Stalwart's mine. It involves critters that, by the time you hit TWM, you're used to slaughtering by the dozens - and makes them a credible threat by employing ambush tactics (they attack you with poisoned arrows and magic from a ledge), smart positioning and general enemy make-up consisting of classes that complement one another. I.e. - it's an encounter that actually had some planning and forethought put into it, and was obviously designed by a person who understands the system (Bobby Null, I think).

Bounties (again - especially the ones from TWM) are also much better hand-crafted encounters that showcase what PoE's system can really do if given the chance. The Brynlod bounty, for example:

the enemy party has several high-level chanters that constantly heal everyone around them with their Ancient Memory talent. Odds are you won't even be aware of this the first time you play through it, you'll just be wondering how the heck they're getting healed so quickly when there's no priest.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
I don't think most people would mind trash mobs if they didn't make up the vast majority of the game's encounters.

There's nothing wrong with having the occasional group of enemies you can easily desolate without trying too hard (ego-stroking the player from time to time is not a bad thing), but wave after wave of enemies with identical composition, gear, abilities, and tactics can get old fast.

It's important to note that "thrash" is very relative to player level and difficulty setting because of PoE's system. If you go to temple of Eothas or Maerwald at lvl 3 on PoTD you will have to micro intensively not to get wiped by spirits, whereas if you do it at 5/6 you will roll everything. The start of White March with the ogres is similar, if you go in at 4/5 you will have a handful.

This wasn't so noticeable in BG2 because level ups did very little except for key spellcaster levels.

Bounties (again - especially the ones from TWM) are also much better hand-crafted encounters that showcase what PoE's system can really do if given the chance. The Brynlod bounty, for example:

the enemy party has several high-level chanters that constantly heal everyone around them with their Ancient Memory talent. Odds are you won't even be aware of this the first time you play through it, you'll just be wondering how the heck they're getting healed so quickly when there's no priest.

The bounties are a real highlight of the game.
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
I would've put a point-of-no-return on the second level of Eothas' temple on PotD (after the bell puzzle for example).

That's how I've been playing it, no backtracking once I get into (non-Caed Nua) dungeons and not buying any camping supplies (using only the ones I come across). It gives the game a decent feeling of resource management, as well as having a lot of "my of my crew is half dead, but can I squeeze out another victory before camping" moments. There have been a number of "trash mob" encounters where I've really had to change my plans and think about things simply because my characters were so weak by the time they attempted them.

But yeah, I can imagine the game isn't that fun if you're just running back to the inn to rest every few encounters. Especially if you're not playing on PotD. It seems clear that many Codexers played the game like that, but it doesn't make sense to blame the game for it.

One thing I have noticed is that (at least so far) they went out of their way to design dungeons in such a way that you can avoid most combat encounters. For instance I just did the temple of Skaen, and it looks like 80% of the encounters could easily be avoided if you just went down the right path (probably more, if you were using stealth and timing patrols). The thing is, it's not really clear which path that is (particularly because you need to find that key). Maybe I just missed a bunch of hints, or maybe it would be obvious with enough scouting, but it wasn't clear. Also, while the lack of combat XP is a good thing, scattering useful items all over the place means you're still incentivized to slaughter everything.

Anyway, the writing is still the part that disappoints me the most. There seems to be a desire on behalf of the writers to make everything grimdark drama [minor spoilers]:

So you have Maerwald in his former life ordering the rape of his mother in the next life, or you have the incest quest in Dyrford. Thanks Obsidian, this is just the kind of stuff that my escapist fantasy was missing. Some of it doesn't even make sense - why did the nobleman impregnate his niece, and then pretend it was his daughter? He needs an heir, and he's going to get a number of people to lie about the kid - so why does he need to impregnate his niece? If he's going to lie about family relations, why not just find a mistress to impregnate and say it's his wife's child? His plan in the game doesn't make much sense, it just feels like the writer wanted to make things "mature" and "gritty."

Also, the way trust works in this game is screwed up. It's not uncommon for someone to send you on a quest telling you X happened. You reach your objective there and the person tells you that X never happened, Y actually happened. Aaaand...you're just supposed to believe them. Like, there's no particular reason why I should believe the Skaen priest about the daughter/niece thing, or the couple that said they killed the guy because he beat her, or the "killer" in Dyrford. But the game always acts like if someone tells you X, and then a second person tells you Y, then Y is true.

The way people trust you is also a bit odd. "Hello stranger, would you please take my jewelry across the street for me?" is an actual quest.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
PoE's system seems like it's built around resource management, and knowing Sawyer I'm probably right, but they didn't have the balls to actually have resource management. Even on PotD. Isn't that what multiple difficulties is about, exploiting the systems to the extreme for challenge purposes? I'd argue that games shouldn't have difficulty levels at all, if you are too pussy or inept to go through what the game throws at you go play Barbie's Dress-up. But I digress. Anyway, conquering challenges is what makes games stand out, while it isn't a unique thing (playing difficult music is also challenging) it's what makes most good games memorable. Nobody is going to remember how they backtracked 5 times through the dungeon to rest in-between encounters (because they could). What I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't impose rules on ourselves so the gameplay makes sense, we've been over this countless times.
 
Last edited:

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
Messages
6,908
Location
Devlet-i ʿAlīye-i ʿErdogānīye
PoE's system seems like it's built around resource management, and knowing Sawyer I'm probably right, but they didn't have the balls to actually have resource management. Even on PotD. Isn't that what multiple difficulties is about, exploiting the systems to the extreme for challenge purposes? I'd argue that games shouldn't have difficulty levels at all, if you are too pussy or inept to go through what the game throws at you go play Barbie's Dress-up. But I digress. Anyway, conquering challenges is what makes games stand out, while it isn't a unique thing (playing difficult music is also challenging) it's what makes most good games memorable. Nobody is going to remember how they backtracked 5 times through the dungeon to rest in-between encounters (because they could). What I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't impose rules on ourselves so the gameplay makes sense, we've been over this countless times.

I at all don't understand when people say they rested and went back to an inn every other encounter, because I have never played a dungeon in the entire game except Caed Nua that required more than the 2 camp supplies, not a single one. Not even the vithrack nest in mines of White March, only that stretched my resources a bit by the end I had too little HP and few spells left that made the encounter with the mushroom extra-hard, thankfully I passed the checks so didn't have the vithracks in the combat.
 

AngryKobold

Arcane
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
534
Also, the way trust works in this game is screwed up. It's not uncommon for someone to send you on a quest telling you X happened. You reach your objective there and the person tells you that X never happened, Y actually happened. Aaaand...you're just supposed to believe them. ... But the game always acts like if someone tells you X, and then a second person tells you Y, then Y is true.

Hey, it was fun. So the quest giver saying X lied? What a twist! What a well written story! Would have never expected a NPC attempting to trick me in a hack' n' slash game for children! Like in real life! So MATURE! So REALISTIC!

As said, it was fun.
When you have seen it in Boulder's Gate.
For the FIRST FUCKING TIME.
Because the trope has been OVERUSED TO DEATH since then, it appears AT EVERY STEP.

That's the cheapest way to trick the player into thinking that quest designers are not braindead... and the most of quests in POE boils down to that pattern. Shame on you, Obsidian! You took it as a standard!

The way people trust you is also a bit odd. "Hello stranger, would you please take my jewelry across the street for me?" is an actual quest.

That on the other hand is the oldest, the most common, the most fundamental flaw of all cRPGs. At least we know Obsidian sticks to tradition.
 
Last edited:

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
I at all don't understand when people say they rested and went back to an inn every other encounter, because I have never played a dungeon in the entire game except Caed Nua that required more than the 2 camp supplies, not a single one. Not even the vithrack nest in mines of White March, only that stretched my resources a bit by the end I had too little HP and few spells left that made the encounter with the mushroom extra-hard, thankfully I passed the checks so didn't have the vithracks in the combat.

This has me totally flabbergasted too. Most people don't play on PoTD yet admit to frequent backtracking. Sawyer can't save people from themselves, dunno why he's even trying.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom