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Fallout NV's factions / characters are retarded?

Alt

Augur
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
121
What did you explain? Just a lot of handwaving and made up shit to explain some caricatures, just because IT'S OBSIDIAN!

Yeah, they put more thought in their caricatures than you'll usually find in a game, but they're still caricatures that only make sense in a theme park setting... which is what Bethesda turned Fallout into anyway. So, if you're OK with the theme park setting then sure, the factions are "explained" and Caesar is great because he found a book... like that's the problem with the Legion... whether or not he found a book. But anyway, yeah, they're "explained".

In other words, NV inherited a lot of stupid shit and design directions from FO3 that are just overlooked because now it's made by Obsidian.

Exactly.
I have no problem with the Fallout Universe per se, it's just that NV is a caricature on a caricature. It's like what I would come up with if I wanted to ridicule the Fallout Universe.

Not that any further expansion is necessary, but just to give you an example on how the Legion could have been done properly: The guy that Mr. House is, with his latest and greatest tech shit, is much closer to what someone would have formed if he "found a book" on the Roman Empire. The Romans had the latest and greatest tech, tactics and arguably state philosophy, they didn't larp a culture that was dead since 2000 years. So, the Legion would have been far more interesting if they sought out the latest and greatest tech, while retaining the philosophy and politics of the Romans, with proconsuls, maybe a senate etc., instead of just being a stupid LARP club that is crucifying people because "cruel is cool, I read it in a book". Fuck that shit.
 
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Endemic

Arcane
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Using the Elvis impersonator getup was a bad idea considering the copyright issue, although in terms of their behaviour the Kings are just another street gang that extract tolls, occasionally do drugs and skirmish with NCR troops in Freeside.

What did you explain? Just a lot of handwaving and made up shit to explain some caricatures, just because IT'S OBSIDIAN!

Yeah, they put more thought in their caricatures than you'll usually find in a game, but they're still caricatures that only make sense in a theme park setting... which is what Bethesda turned Fallout into anyway. So, if you're OK with the theme park setting then sure, the factions are "explained" and Caesar is great because he found a book... like that's the problem with the Legion... whether or not he found a book. But anyway, yeah, they're "explained".

In other words, NV inherited a lot of stupid shit and design directions from FO3 that are just overlooked because now it's made by Obsidian.

Makes me wonder how "whacky" is their "whacky wasteland" setting, though. What happens there? Did they get Todd Howard to do that?

Ever heard of this project called Van Buren? NV uses quite a few of its ideas. ;) Obviously the Legion and Burned Man were changed along the way.

Wild Wasteland had an Indiana Jones reference (skeleton in refridgerator) among a few others.

What about the NCR, or the Gun Runners, or the Crimson Caravan etc? Or are we only going to discuss the weaker factions?

Brotherhood of Steel are much closer to their FO1 version here (see what happens when you complete Veronica's quest, and the resultant infighting), so I find this LARPing accusation funny.
 

Gnidrologist

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Gunrunners are just a shop. CC has almost no interaction with outside world beyond one quest/dialogue.
 

Black Angel

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CC has almost no interaction with outside world beyond one quest/dialogue.
Two quests, actually. Three, if you count Cass's quest which had a fuck ton of stuff that had to do with the CC. Lots of interaction with the outside world, too, from buying out competitions, stealing competition's secret, and getting rid a source of currency's counterfeiting, while the entire Cass's quest give a deep insight on what CC's been doing it all these times.
 

Gnidrologist

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I played Cass's quest and that is the only quest where CC makes interaction to the world, which is via the PC. Background lore doesn't count. In that way every minor bunch of people you do quests for, are 'factions'. They could make the whole caravan business way more prominent given how important it is for wasteland.
 

Black Angel

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You were saying 'interaction with the outside world'. That's what I was referring to, and it's just the way I see it. You do quests for the CC, it follows up to Cass and her personal quest, which gives an insight to CC's 'interaction with the outside world' and it correlates directly to the quests you've done for them.

And it's also not exactly fair to not count 'background lore' when you previously mentioned 'dialogue'. They were both pieces of the narrative.

Edit: as for making the whole caravan important to the wasteland, I'm kind of indifferent considering the way the narrative of this game works. On one hand, it's a missed opportunity to feature the prominent thing about the classic Fallout(s); caravan runs. On the other hand, the entire Mojave Wasteland is currently in an indefinite state of stalemate between the warring (major) factions, so I'm not sure if a caravan run ala classic Fallout(s) can work like the way it was before. Of course, one thing I know it would be a better alternative of fast-traveling than 'simply-click-on-pipboy-map'.
 
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gruntar

Augur
Joined
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Messages
132
Exactly.
I have no problem with the Fallout Universe per se, it's just that NV is a caricature on a caricature. It's like what I would come up with if I wanted to ridicule the Fallout Universe.

Not that any further expansion is necessary, but just to give you an example on how the Legion could have been done properly: The guy that Mr. House is, with his latest and greatest tech shit, is much closer to what someone would have formed if he "found a book" on the Roman Empire. The Romans had the latest and greatest tech, tactics and arguably state philosophy, they didn't larp a culture that was dead since 2000 years. So, the Legion would have been far more interesting if they sought out the latest and greatest tech, while retaining the philosophy and politics of the Romans, with proconsuls, maybe a senate etc., instead of just being a stupid LARP club that is crucifying people because "cruel is cool, I read it in a book". Fuck that shit.

Legion wasn't about larping Roman Empire, it was about giving all tribes and gangs conquered by Ceasar a single identifity, basic template to build a faction. I recommend watching this short video by the man himself so you at least know what are you bitching about:



I played Cass's quest and that is the only quest where CC makes interaction to the world, which is via the PC. Background lore doesn't count. In that way every minor bunch of people you do quests for, are 'factions'. They could make the whole caravan business way more prominent given how important it is for wasteland.

They could make a lot of things better and more fleshed out, but that could be said about pretty much any game, not to use extra short development time excuse.
 

Commissar Draco

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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Profligates like the OP belong to the Cross; what is so surprising that game setting of post nuclear country which was build on LARPing of Roman Republic in first place has two factions LARPING Romans? NCR and Legion? Or that people might forget who was POP star who died 100 years before Nuclear War happened? Brotherhood retarded how so? they are exactly how they were in first part and bereft of all Heroic Paladins of Dessert Librul nonsense from part Three. The only silly thing in FNV was this quest about ghouls who wanted into space... but this was entirely side quest (even put into side of map too).
 

Gnidrologist

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Edit: as for making the whole caravan important to the wasteland, I'm kind of indifferent considering the way the narrative of this game works. On one hand, it's a missed opportunity to feature the prominent thing about the classic Fallout(s); caravan runs. On the other hand, the entire Mojave Wasteland is currently in an indefinite state of stalemate between the warring (major) factions, so I'm not sure if a caravan run ala classic Fallout(s) can work like the way it was before. Of course, one thing I know it would be a better alternative of fast-traveling than 'simply-click-on-pipboy-map'.
I don't mean that, but having several competing caravaner companies and having some politiking among them with PC participating.
 

Black Angel

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I don't mean that, but having several competing caravaner companies and having some politiking among them with PC participating.
Yeah, that too. But like I've mentioned before, they were buying out and/or eliminating competitions and stealing other companies secrets (the two quests you did for them), and they've been doing it for a long, long time (as you can see from Cass's quest). Which is why we don't get to see much competition when playing.

The only opportunity for a caravan run AND with another company would be with the Happy Trails when you go to Zion, but that doesn't really count...
 

Daemongar

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The Kings: Maybe folks do not understand things, but the Fallout universe is a parody of 50's life turned into a dystopia. If someone asked to describe Vegas they'd eventually mention Elvis Presley. It's not historically accurate, but Elvis is a 50's icon and is associated with Las Vegas (but the association was more late 60's, early 70's.) It's not to hard to figure out how the developers saw this group emerging or how it really doesn't seem to stretch credulity as much as you may think. Jesus, there are still thousands and thousands of registered Elvis impersonators 40 years after his (so-called) death!

The Kings, and their leader, were successful as implemented in the game, as they were entertaining and fit the Fallout world. So does Caesars legion. They could have just had Caesars folks as generic "might makes right" to counteract the "law and order and lesbianism and drinking" NCR group. Their options to replace Caesar's army using FO lore: 1) Supermutants, 2) Enclave, 3) Brotherhood, 4) Intelligent Deathclaws, 5) Ghoul Army, 6) Raiders!, or 7) something equally shitty. Look how memorable the nemesis is in Fallout 4. it was. uh. The syndicate or whatever. I'm glad they chose Caesars army as when someone says "Hey, the enemies will mimic Caesars army!" This probably made it a lot easier on the designers. We can all picture what they'd sorta look like and how they'd behave. It works.

They also did a good job of setting up the nemesis and giving good points to Caesar. They didn't make NCR too good, they didn't make Caesars army all that bad.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
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This thread reinforces my opinion that people who complain about New Vegas' writing and factions are just too retarded to put 2+2 together.

Funny considering a lot of people who slam New Vegas then go on to praise Fallout 4's "excellent" writing.
 

naossano

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I wonder if there would have been complains if the game had no Elvis impersonator, especially from the audience familiar with Las Vegas.

Like having the game set in Washington at totally ignore the government.
 

Sigourn

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I wonder if there would have been complains if the game had no Elvis impersonator, especially from the audience familiar with Las Vegas.

Like having the game set in Washington at totally ignore the government.

Pretty much. We can all agree that New Vegas needed more minutes in the oven, not even mentioning a completely different engine. The Kings were very underused in my opinion, they were a fascinating faction. I think not having Elvis music added to it, but in an alternative New Vegas it would have been nice I suppose to find Elvis records or something hidden somewhere in the Mojave, which you could then give to The King (and in the process destroy their identity or reinforce it, who knows).

Maybe the skeleton of the King himself, implying he didn't actually die when they say he did, along with his fancy torn-down clothes... I'm steering too far into FO3 territory, am I not?
 

Tigranes

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I wonder if there would have been complains if the game had no Elvis impersonator, especially from the audience familiar with Las Vegas.

Like having the game set in Washington at totally ignore the government.

Pretty much. We can all agree that New Vegas needed more minutes in the oven, not even mentioning a completely different engine. The Kings were very underused in my opinion, they were a fascinating faction. I think not having Elvis music added to it, but in an alternative New Vegas it would have been nice I suppose to find Elvis records or something hidden somewhere in the Mojave, which you could then give to The King (and in the process destroy their identity or reinforce it, who knows).

Maybe the skeleton of the King himself, implying he didn't actually die when they say he did, along with his fancy torn-down clothes... I'm steering too far into FO3 territory, am I not?

Only if the King turns out to also be an emo vampire that is also your father, yes.
 

Athos

Arcane
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Apr 2, 2014
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Italy
I wonder if there would have been complains if the game had no Elvis impersonator, especially from the audience familiar with Las Vegas.

Like having the game set in Washington at totally ignore the government.

Pretty much. We can all agree that New Vegas needed more minutes in the oven, not even mentioning a completely different engine. The Kings were very underused in my opinion, they were a fascinating faction. I think not having Elvis music added to it, but in an alternative New Vegas it would have been nice I suppose to find Elvis records or something hidden somewhere in the Mojave, which you could then give to The King (and in the process destroy their identity or reinforce it, who knows).

Maybe the skeleton of the King himself, implying he didn't actually die when they say he did, along with his fancy torn-down clothes... I'm steering too far into FO3 territory, am I not?
In a Q&A somewhere the devs said that they wanted to put Elvis' songs in the game but that the price for a single song was ridiculously high and they gave up.
 

Sigourn

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In a Q&A somewhere the devs said that they wanted to put Elvis' songs in the game but that the price for a single song was ridiculously high and they gave up.

Yep, I think I remember reading that. I actually went ahead and downloaded some songs and installed them on my game. It was nice going through the Strip blasting Viva Las Vegas.
 

Chris Avelltwo

Scholar
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Mar 3, 2017
Messages
678
How is it that FO NV is getting such high praise and even is lauded by some on the Codex as the "real" Fallout 3 when its factions and characters are so utterly retarded?

1) I'm sure most of the basis of your claim has to do with the factions/characters basing themselves off pre-war information and relics they uncovered, like the Kings basing themselves on Elvis or Edward Sallow basing his faction on the real life Roman Empire. That might seem far-fetched and stupid to you, but bear in mind this is a post-apocalyptic wasteland where for several generations most people have been illiterate and ignorant of the world that existed before the bombs fell, so it would happen that the small few people who actually are literate (like Edward Sallow, for example) would have a huge advantage by having access to the knowledge of the old world and using that to manipulate the illiterate tribals into doing their bidding. Recreating the Roman empire might seem stupid to you, but that is because you know what the Roman Empire was, but these tribals don't.

There's a real world phenomenon called "Cargo Cults" where primitive people living in islands in the Pacific witnessed cargo planes during WW2 and didn't know what to make of it so they considered it supernatural and created religions about it which are practiced to this day. Of course this seems stupid to us, but these tribal people don't know any better. is it unreasonable to think that in a post-apocalyptic wasteland people would look upon the old pre-war world as some mythical thing and form cults and shit based on the artifacts they uncover? That's how you explain the Kings, the Legion, etc. It is not as stupid as you think and the Cargo Cults as I mentioned are a real life example of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

2) The Fallout franchise has always been a bit tongue-in-cheek ever since the very first game with stuff like the monty python references, etc. FNV is actually the least tongue-in-cheek of the entire series because it optionally segregates that "silly" content behind the Wild Wasteland trait, so you can completely avoid if you want.

3) FO3 is far more retarded for a plethora of reasons I don't feel like going into in great detail, but here's a video that will cover a lot of it.

 

Goral

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New Vegas is one of the best settings ever envisioned. Sawyer haters can kindly fuck off.
lol
It's basically New Reno 2 so it's MCA's idea if anything, and New Reno was one of the worst locations in Fallout 2 cohesion-wise (quests are one of the best though). You even have robots there (in the Sierra Army Depot). New Vegas setting is retarded, as are the factions and Alt is right. No one in his right mind would waste energy like this in a post-apocalyptic setting (on neons, or so many casinos which make sense in contemporary world where people have plenty of resources to waste, or radio), no one would waste time to make fancy Elvis costumes and Elvis hair-dressing either, it's just silly. Caesar's faction is also silly if only because a person like that would never grow in power this easily, he would have been squashed long ago. And certainly his army of goons armed with hammers and machetes would have no chance against guns. Also, Caesar assumes here that he could win against such a massive force as NCR and remain in power when in fact in best case scenario most of his faction would be wiped out with many people getting hit by ricochet so it would be Pyrrhic victory and he would not achieve his goal anyway.

But seriously though, why would anyone in a post-apo world follow all of these strange rules and customs and listen to a rambling "visionary"? I would think that most people would find it silly and it would be more convincing if there would be no cosplay, strange sounding, foreign words and silly rules to follow and if his conquests weren't so brutal. Wiping out whole villages totally opposes Caesar's ultimate goal I would think. The same goes for making example out of anyone who fails, especially if it's someone who proved himself in many other occasions. It only gives a signal that your turn might be at any moment and is a perfect ground for mutiny/rebellion and to join your enemies instead.

The rest of factions are much worse though, e.g. White Glove Society or Kings (as mentioned earlier). But just in the case of New Reno, even if these factions/towns are silly and don't fit Fallout 1 world they make for an interesting game with compelling quests and characters (WGS quests was one of the most interesting ones for me). But that's not what OP is saying and you have to admit that he does have a point.
 

Chris Avelltwo

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lol
It's basically New Reno 2 so it's MCA's idea if anything,

Considering both worked on F:NV that might be true, but what does it matter whose idea it was? This was a team effort.

No one in his right mind would waste energy like this in a post-apocalyptic setting (on neons, or so many casinos which make sense in contemporary world where people have plenty of resources to waste, or radio), no one would waste time to make fancy Elvis costumes and Elvis hair-dressing either, it's just silly.

No one in his right mind would waste energy constructing a model of a cargo plane when they are at a primitive tribal level, and yet...

cargo-cult-4.jpg


Also, I'd argue the Elvis costumes were probably something that was simply found rather than constructed. The real Las Vegas is full of Elvis impersonators, and the Kings' headquarters is an impersonation school where he found the stuff.

Caesar's faction is also silly if only because a person like that would never grow in power this easily, he would have been squashed long ago.

Why? You could say the same about any other dictator throughout history. Caesar maintains power by force, and by making examples out of people. You know the story of the burned man? This was at Caesar's command. It is hard to squash someone who is that ruthless because people are afraid to stand up to them, else they might meet a similar fate. Why is it so hard to believe that a ruthless person could maintain power over others when history is full of countless examples of this? Saddam Hussein, Hitler, Stalin, you name it. Its actually a lot easier for a dictator to stay in power than a democratically elected leader, because in a democracy said person can be voted out, but Caesar can't be voted out, and if you ever visit him in his tent you see he has a lot of bodyguards, so killing him isn't exactly a trivial thing. Many people probably did have that idea, like Boone for instance.

And certainly his army of goons armed with hammers and machetes would have no chance against guns.

You don't say that about Supermutants when they rush at you with those big supersledges; or ghoul reavers; or Deathclaws. In real life with a decent gun you would be able to take out any of those things, but guess what... this is a video game. Enemies are bullet sponges, and melee weapons hit very hard. Also, maybe you haven't noticed, but some Legionaires do use firearms, and in fact they even make an attempt to buy energy weapons from the Van Graffs, but get betrayed and ambushed in that warehouse in the Birds of a Feather quest. So they aren't necessarily opposed to having advanced weapons, but this is supposed to be a post-apocalyptic wasteland, and tbh firearms and energy weapons should be much more scarce than what they are. In FO2 your character starts off with just a spear, and the first firearm you get is a crappy homemade pipe rifle. This is what a realistic post-apocalyptic game should be. Caesar's Legion largely using melee weapons and throwing spears is more true to the tribal theme of FO2. Bethesda are the ones who think you should get power armor and mini-guns almost immediately and play it like a HALO shooter. This was never Obsidian's idea for what the franchise should be. Caesar's Legion is a relic concept from Van Buren, and maybe wasn't tweaked enough to keep up with the changes Bethesda made with FO3 and turning it into a shoot and loot FPS, but they would have been perfectly fine with the vision Black Isle had for Van Buren to begin with, which would have picked up from FO2.

And btw, this was the cover art image that MCA had wanted to be on FO2

latest


This is a powerful image which shows a tribal wearing a BOS helmet. This is the sort of world where Caesar's Legion with their javelins and machetes would have made sense, but Bethesda fucked up the franchise so that instead of this, we know have a HALO game like this.

maxresdefault.jpg


Yes, you're right, Caesar's Legion wouldn't make any sense in the face of that, but this was never what the franchise was supposed to become. You have to think about them in terms of FO2 and Van Buren, then it makes more sense.

But seriously though, why would anyone in a post-apo world follow all of these strange rules and customs and listen to a rambling "visionary"?

That has always been a staple of the franchise ever since the very first game. Are you new to the series?

300px-FO01_NPC_Maxson_G.png



But that's not what OP is saying and you have to admit that he does have a point.

No, he doesn't.
 

Beastro

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How the hell can we roll our eyes today about the ludicrousness of a concept like the Kings when as we live and breath people are tapping into the spirit of that imitation on both sides of the culture war, with the Lefites trying to revive the 60s era protest movement while the Right is looking to any and all older figures of greater times in order to win.

Around FONVs time (and for me it isn't a long time ago, funny how that is whereas 1990-1997 was almost an entire epoch in its own right to my life), if you'd described a figure like Based Stick Guy to me, someone trying to be both Spartan Warrior and Captain America, I'd have asked where he was in the game. Instead he's a real fucking cultural figure of inspiration, and rightly so.

It shows the darker aspects of civilization, that the decay as presented in post-apocalyptic fiction can not only exist in a world after the collapse of civilization, as we see in FONV, but it can also exist in one that is still puttering on like ours, where we are barely able to produce anything culturally new we increasingly only have left, like the Kings, to scrap around for previous times motifs to frame our thoughts and ideas around.

Thank God we're not all the way there yet though like they are in the game.
 
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I don't know what sort of book on the Roman Empire Caesar picked up, but the Legion bears no resemblance to the Roman Empire beyond superficial cosmetics. Roman conquests were successful largely due to skilled diplomacy and bribery of rival tribes, the term divide and conquer refers to allying smaller tribes in a region in order to bring down a tribe they perceive as a threat. The Romans were successful largely in integrating the majority of tribes peacefully, using the luxuries afforded by civilisation (wine, white bread, women that dont smell like shit), which tended to buy the loyalties of the larger, more affluent tribes of western europe, while those that resisted tended to be more idealistic and youthful. Ruthless brutality was largely reserved for rebellion and repression, not a means of conquest as it is completely anti-productive to massacre and destroy the fruits of conquest, and alienate those that witness it. Caesars actions seems more in line with the Mongols, who are wellknown for their brutality, however it can be argued the mongols were not attempting to create a unified, stable empire, but were barbarians in the traditional sense.

Furthermore, Caesar's Legionaires are a slave army, and I don't think I need to explain why the entire concept of a slave army is absurd (The only successful slave army being the Turkish Janniseries, who were conditioned from birth, and eventually ended up seizing power for themselves in anycase) , but it bears little resemblance to the Citizen-soldier of the Roman Republic, or the paid Professional Soldier of following the Marian reforms. Furthermore the Romans had little regard for melee, as is evidenced by their interest in military engineering and fortifications, and their open opposition to any sort of individual martial prowess in favour of rational cycling of fatigued units and formations designed to tire out an enemy. The barbarian warriors of europe were individually more skilled then the typical roman soldier, but it meant nothing against a maniple designed in direct opposition to "a fair fight". Roman cavalry on the otherhand was largely regarded as inferior possibly due to this.

but rlly its jes a gaem, there are far graver inaccuracies in p much anything else out there
 

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