Rant: Modern technology is making modern RPG combat unbearable

[Beastro]

-Plate Armor would make you functionally invincible

Two guys in plate = a wrestlefuck with one guy banging a little mace on the others head while the other uses his sword like a giant can opener to work the tip into the openings of the armour.

 

[Drakron]

In the off chance it's irony, to my recollection, both ways of typing it are considered appropriate. Daikatana / Dai-Katana.

edit: never held one.. have a katana though, proper one too. Light as a fucking feather.

Err, not really as Katana is just the Japanese term used for longswords that werent a Tachi, the term for a great sword was Nodachi, there is no such thing as a Daikatana.

 

[naossano]

I wouldn't say modern technology, but current design choices.
When you do something, it is your goal that matters, not the tools at your disposal.

 

[Lilura]

Fucking this. When I didn't have any internet connection

The good ol' days. Where no cunts could look up wikis and - best case scenario - you had to wait for LSD docs disks to hit the BBS. Gamers these days have all the info at their fingertips, but they know nothing.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

In the off chance it's irony, to my recollection, both ways of typing it are considered appropriate. Daikatana / Dai-Katana.

edit: never held one.. have a katana though, proper one too. Light as a fucking feather.

Err, not really as Katana is just the Japanese term used for longswords that werent a Tachi, the term for a great sword was Nodachi, there is no such thing as a Daikatana.

Except...

*cue monolith wailing

 

[Aenra]

Err, not really as Katana is just the Japanese term used for longswords that werent a Tachi, the term for a great sword was Nodachi, there is no such thing as a Daikatana.

Technically, there's no such thing as a katana either, because again technically, katana is like saying "pasta". All it signifies is a single-bladed weapon that is NOT a tachi. That's all the term signifies, what it is not.
Yet again technically, we'd also have to eschew every local naming convention that followed and stick to the two original terms, uchigatana and tsubagatana. They don't, never did in fact; and we don't either.

Now notice the two distinct categories named above for what, to the average Westerner, is the one and same thing. Tells you something?
(Google is nice, libraries are where it's at though. Don't be a by-product of Google your era).

 

[FeelTheRads]

In what library did you find texts about daikatanas?

And can you tell me what they are?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

tldr: Writers research their topic before writing about it, otherwise they look pretty stupid. Game designers need to research the stuff they design as well.

Sadly, almost no writers and pnp RPG designers actually research the topic of combat. Most of it is stupid bullshit. Medieval and Renaissance combat is usually treated horribly by game developers, writers and movie makers :/ .

If they really researched combat I hope you don't expect any kind of armor in any kind of game ever again. Also leather armor is a joke.
What you think of as "realistic" is a complete joke to HEMA.
And there has never been a wrestling game(other then DF) that I heard of so there will never be "realistic" in games ever when it comes to melee.

There are already PnP systems made by people HEMA like The Riddle of Steel and Codex Martialis. It's just a question of game developers being willing to adapt them.

 

[Drakron]

Technically, there's no such thing as a katana either, because again technically, katana is like saying "pasta".

Technically the word is used, I have no idea were you get the idea the word is not used ... and since you like books so much.

https://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Sword-Arts-Library/dp/0870115626

Unless you are going to claim the translation is wrong ...

 

[Aenra]

Technically the word is used

See that's why i don't usually talk with children, but this being a gaming site.. my fault
Now unplug your PS4, keep your hand away from your dick for just two seconds and read my previous post again.

If it's still an issue, allow me to reiterate.
- Yes, we DO use that word, as i did myself before you even intervened.
- No, that does not entail it's technically an accurate term. As stated, it does not signify a specific weapon, but instead more like what it is not.
(different mentality, yes? You'd think it signifies what it is, even in broad terms. Instead it does the opposite).

Technically mind. Because pasta is also perfectly "correct" to use, except it's not "technical". One could be talking about rigatoni, cannelloni, or penne.

Do you now understand?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

The average age of RPG players is getting older, so people have less time to read a manual

Manuals are read on the crapper. No time to take a dump these days?

The main problem is that there are no manuals most of time. Though could be fixed through ebook-reader friendly manuals.

 

[laclongquan]

I do remember playing Fallout and Fallout 2 with magazine's walkthrough.

Granted, it's bad advices. But it is a basis to judge the game's progress.

 

[The Bishop]

Err, not really as Katana is just the Japanese term used for longswords that werent a Tachi, the term for a great sword was Nodachi, there is no such thing as a Daikatana.

Technically, there's no such thing as a katana either, because again technically, katana is like saying "pasta". All it signifies is a single-bladed weapon that is NOT a tachi. That's all the term signifies, what it is not.
Yet again technically, we'd also have to eschew every local naming convention that followed and stick to the two original terms, uchigatana and tsubagatana. They don't, never did in fact; and we don't either.

Now notice the two distinct categories named above for what, to the average Westerner, is the one and same thing. Tells you something?
(Google is nice, libraries are where it's at though. Don't be a by-product of Google your era).

The non-existence of "Daikatana" is not a matter of technicality though. The name is just grammatical impossibility. It can be either ōkikatana or daitō, both meaning "big sword", the latter being the actual name of a weapon. You can as much own a daikatana as you can commit sudoku.

 

[commie]

Would you play something like this?

This is the same reason why simple dogfight sims are better than real flight sims.

Bullshit. Get a joystick with a throttle. Problem solved.

The problem with RPG combat has never been about "realism" or the like, it has always been a gameplay issue. And in this regard the gameplay issue can largely be gauged by the prevalence of this fucking thing in the underlying mechanics:

Spoiler

Bottomline is that random chance that is not properly limited is detrimental to any type of gameplay. Any fighting game would be ruined by a Morrowind style random chance to hit. Chess would be shit with a random chance to capture. The dice are the mortal enemy of skill, tactics and strategy.

I think chance can be good so long as it's positive. Maybe it can help you when you're in trouble, but will never sink you when you should win. Would be interesting though to see some deterministic turn based combat in CRPGs.

Telepath Tactics is an SRPG that is mostly deterministic, and is pretty good.

Well, there are degrees, but overall random chance must be mitigated so it can never interfere with skill, tactics, and strategy. Positive chance would be something like randomized events and encounters that present the player with a self-contained situation to solve. Negative chance is something where doing something is a question of chance, ie ultimately I would say skill checks checking a value rather than value+random number is a better way of doing things.

In terms of the question at large, the issue of chance needs special consideration. The issue of chance in combat is probably best presented by visualizing the hit chance (ie the standard expanding/contracting reticles). Usually a deviation-size-reticle is based around the game's decided optimal combat state (the difference between a normal classic shooter and an RPG-sort with a reticle like this would be that the reticle in Doom or Duke3d is unchanging regardless of your state) and represents I'd estimate at most 5-10% deviation in optimal conditions. Now let's picture having this visual representation of random factor on a scale similar to a 50% chance roll (lamentably common in RPGs): It would be a completely nonsensical and frustrating gameplay. This is where the reason why most RPGs have shit combat originates from. Games like Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm, and Valkyria Chronicles do not revolve around chance, they revolve around tactics to reach the optimal fighting state while minimizing the enemy's fighting ability via the use of cover or specific advantages like snipers. Attacks outside of optimal conditions are only just something done because of limited or zero cost in doing so, most of the time your skill-tactical-strategic challenge is in removing random chance. Souls and Bloodborne leave random chance to a minor variation in damage for the most part. Whereas most d20 type combat systems revolve around random chance as constant. That is the essence of shit combat problem.

Bullshit. Missing most attacks due to shitty rolls is part of the bread and butter of early RPG combat and is the best approximation of being a fucking useless noob. Give a bladed weapon to an untrained peasant in real life and send him off to fight. You'll see a similar lack of ability with it with any damage more a case of chance than ability. Nothing better than seeing your party struggle with 90% misses against a bunch of kobolds at lvl 1, then, just a couple of levels later being able to run through the same mobs with ease(ie Gold Box, which incidentally also did combat well but which the kids here forget). Tactics should of course help you out regarding bad rolls, but should never compensate fully for them. Historically there are many instances of great tactics still being undermined by being forced to fight with poor quality troops, so it should be a bit of both.

Deterministic combat is not the way to go in most cases. It's schematic and unrealistic as it assumes that damage output will always be constant. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Aenra]

is not a matter of technicality though. The name is just grammatical impossibility

Another one.. O.K., let me recap
I used a term we use in the West, have been for decades now.
Someone needed to show us how nerdy they are, told me it's not "technically" correct.
I replied saying if you want to go technical, then other terms aren't either. It's only misconceptions/common usage that may have made us think otherwise.

Such is the way with cultures and languages, stuff evolves, gets appropriated or ends up having an entirely different meaning.

It's that simple. Name them as you fucking please, ain't fussed.
Just don't go Wikipedia-expert on me for no reason. I know what is and what isn't, thank you very much.

 

[The Bishop]

Such is the way with cultures and languages, stuff evolves, gets appropriated or ends up having an entirely different meaning.

It's that simple. Name them as you fucking please, ain't fussed.
Just don't go Wikipedia-expert on me for no reason. I know what is and what isn't, thank you very much.

"Daikatana" has never been appropriated, it's not a Japanese word. It's an equivalent to "beeg sord" in English. Such is a way with culture and languages, so let's just use video game titles as names for historical weapons? Are you a dumbfuck, sir? I think you're a dumbfuck.

 

[Aenra]

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

RTFM is all ppl need. Failing that, experiment. RPGs that use complex stat systems are not common today because the devs themselves are dumb, the players dumber.

The average age of RPG players is getting older, so people have less time to read a manual.

The "average player" is not getting older, but quite the opposite, given how cheap an accessible technology is today. They just got dumb as fuck.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

-Plate Armor would make you functionally invincible

Two guys in plate = a wrestlefuck with one guy banging a little mace on the others head while the other uses his sword like a giant can opener to work the tip into the openings of the armour.

That really pissed me off when I watched Lord of the Rings years ago - all of the human soldiers are armoured like tanks, yet they fall to the first harmless, superficial slash across the breastplate. Same for the armoured orcs.

 

[Ziem]

it's not the technolo.. oh, it's yet another "muh realism in vidya" thread, nevermind

 

[octavius]

That really pissed me off when I watched Lord of the Rings years ago - all of the human soldiers are armoured like tanks, yet they fall to the first harmless, superficial slash across the breastplate. Same for the armoured orcs.

Hey, it's Peter Action-Jackson. It's not supposed to look realistic, it's all about what produces the most "cool!" exclamations from teenage boys.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

That really pissed me off when I watched Lord of the Rings years ago - all of the human soldiers are armoured like tanks, yet they fall to the first harmless, superficial slash across the breastplate. Same for the armoured orcs.

Hey, it's Peter Action-Jackson. It's not supposed to look realistic, it's all about what produces the most "cool!" exclamations from teenage boys.

I don't think that obvious retardedness produces "Cool!" exclamations from teenage boys. :D